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M90 rebuild (rudy)

Discussion in 'Need for Speed!' started by jd4242, March 30, 2013.

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    1. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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    3. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I like that 400 pump, but I don't think it's needed if the lines were big enough, plus adequate current. That size could support 600hp most likely, and I think the 255 is adequate for 400hp or so.

      I'm sure your tuner was asking you to run another power wire to be sure the pump gets enough current. He is right, you want a single power wire running from the battery source point(PDB etc), to the pump relay, and to the pump. As the pump size goes up, the wiring has to carry more current.

      You can use more wires also, a second power wire(path)running parallel to the first. I'll run two wires that can each support one 255 pump. Make sure the ground wires(path) are upgraded too.
       
    4. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      -6an should support 500-600hp..
      A 255lph pump on ethanol is in the 280-320hp range

      The 340lph i took out ""might"" have done it but would be maxed out,that is if its getting enough current..

      We are not 100% sure on the current or voltage situation so that might be why the 310lph pump wasnt keeping up on e85...with proper voltage and on e50 im sure it probably wouldve been fine..

      I do know the 310lph pump with current wiring on e50 at 12lbs was fine..i ran that for about 3 years..only when i increased boost and went to e85 has it become a problem. .

      But yes the wiring is getting upgraded and that 415lph pump is getting installed..
       
      Last edited: November 28, 2017
    5. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I'll bow out to who's telling you pump potentials, and line sizes. I've read much different power limits for a 255 pump and 6AN line. Peace, make it work.
       
    6. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Don, as JD stated, its the e85. I think what you are saying is correct for gas with little to no ethanol.
      e85 looks like its fantastic, but it does take quite a bit more of it to get the same energy.

      As JD is teaching us, there are some down sides to e85 that you need to set your self up for stuff like high flow fuel pump, bigger injectors, and a fuel system that won't corrode, melt. I just keep learning.

      Obviously a bigger feed pipe like AN8 wouldn't hurt anything but the wallet. lol.
       
    7. Centaurus5.0

      Centaurus5.0 Elite Explorer

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      Estimated BSFC for superchared engines:
      Gasoline – .60 to .65
      E85 – .84 to .91
       
    8. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      If the pump and wiring dont work then it leaves nothing but the line..

      Yes -8an wouldnt hurt anything but the outlet of the pump is only 3/8"..the line in the sender that the pump attaches to is only 3/8" and the hole going into my fuel rail is probably smaller than 3/8"..the hole in the rail that the feed line attaches to maybe my main restriction..this definitely will have to be addressed if going to bigger line...

      But to change my feed line to -8an would mean 6 new fittings, new filter and new line..AND the supercharger has to come off to remove the line that attaches to the rail..not a easy or cheap job at..

      Pump and wiring i can have done in about a hour for about $250...

      Im definitely going to take the easier cheaper route for now..I've seen and been told -6an should support my goals but pump and voltage has always been questionable
       
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    9. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      Thats why I've gone back to E50 to lower that number..

      E50 has supported over 700rwhp,its about equivalent to 100 octane but has the added benefit of ethanol. .octane isnt linear so it doesnt really begine to drastically drop off till lower than E50..

      Only reason i went to e85 is because i was concerned about IAC temps but the new intercooler i built is working pretty good so i dont need the added benefits of the raw amount of extra fuel that e85 has over e50..which is about the only benefit other than a couple points of octane
       
      Last edited: November 28, 2017
    10. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I see I didn't account enough for the E85 or E50 fuel. I was thinking it'd take maybe 20% more fuel/pump, but it looks like that may be nearing 50% depending on which fuel. So the power rating comes down similarly.

      I hope that bigger pump does it, because I know the lines would be a pain to do again, plus the costs.
       
    11. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      Keep in mind this is on ethanol and on boosted apps...you need to look at the flow rates at about 70-80psi plus...pressure regulator is a 1:1 so if base is 60 psi and your pushing 15lbs of boost your fuel pressure should be about 90psi......a typical 255lph pump on e85 at 80psi @13v is flowing much lower..a -6an line is gonna flow whatever its going to flow no matter whats flowing through it..

      Here is a graph of a 255 pump,notice the flow at about 80psi..your down to 171Lph on e85 wont support 400+ hp
      TRE340Flow.jpg
       
      Last edited: November 28, 2017
    12. Centaurus5.0

      Centaurus5.0 Elite Explorer

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      You would need approximately 35% more fuel when using E85 over pump gas. You could need up to 20% more volume (based on fuel pressure) if your using E50 to feed the same hp than if you were using gasoline.

      The Ford Racing catalog has a good write up on BSFC.

      The quality of the fuel can also cause tuning nightmares. You may want to purchase something like this to make sure your getting what your tuning for. Consistent fuel quality is hard to come by these days and even vary based on the time of year.
      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-36-e85

      ::Fixed Typo::
       
      Last edited: November 29, 2017
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    13. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      Thats what i use to mix to e50 and i think we are at about 18-20% more fuel on e50 than my 93tune
       
      Last edited: November 28, 2017
    14. Centaurus5.0

      Centaurus5.0 Elite Explorer

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      Ah! Okay.

      FYI, your build is way out of my league and I'm just going off what I've read from others on the net. All I can really add (which you already knew) is you need more volume when using ethanol and fuel quality becomes a big issue when dealing with high boost.

      When you get this figured out, you will be crowned King of the Four Liters for sure! (If 4pointslow lets you) lol :thumbsup:
       
      Last edited: November 29, 2017
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    15. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Yeah, that's a good graph and for E85 taking so much more flow it needs more pump for sure.

      I do wonder about the boost/psi rise though, isn't that 1:1, so 15psi boost plus the base 60psi, is 75psi? I think you're smart to use that higher pressure with the ethanol and plenty of boost.

      I haven't decided if I want to run the base at 40psi or 60psi, with the return system. I figured I'd let the tuner make me lean to one versus the other.
       
    16. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      I actually set my ""base pressure"" of 60psi with the truck running so i gain psi with each drop in vacuum so im at about 77ish before boost comes in and running 18lbs boost..with a better pump i could probably turn that base down to 40ish but ideally you want about 70-80psi under full boost or thats where my tuner suggest
       
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    17. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      But i finally caught a break..we have been looking for a new house and we finally got approved yesterday! !!

      Guess who FINALLY got his own garage and a big ass barn/shed/workshop...this im super excited about,i can finally get all my crap outa storage and outa my old mans garage. .
      ISy7gp33983nzh0000000000.jpg ISmquf4csdrvbi0000000000.jpg
       
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    18. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      That looks awesome!!!
      You buying it?
      Now you can work on your trucks in the warm comfort of your garage.
      Congratulations!
       
    19. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      Still renting for now..gota get the trucks done before thinking about buying a place
       
    20. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      The good thing about renting is if the neighbors complain about you being too loud, you can move away from them!
       
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    21. jd4242

      jd4242 Explorer Addict

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      Fortunately we are in a zone that has no noise ordinance. So they can complain all they want..lol
       
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