Discussion in 'Need for Speed!' started by Dono, May 22, 2015.
ok, so now I need to find a flare tool that works. I have a feeling this is going to cost me.
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I know mine was about 50 bucks US and I just took my time with it and they arent the best ones on the planet but they’ve worked for over 500 miles
ditto on don't use compression fittings and don't cut the lines
I tried the cheaper one, and the line just pushed thru the clamp as I was pressing the die in to the end of the line.
I'm not sure what I could be doing wrong, as it seems pretty straight forward. The factory line seems too hard of a steel. I could probably bend my own starting with a new line as the new stuff seems much softer.
4point, I still need to flare the two lines that needed to be (and were) cut back where the aux cooler was attached as the intercooler ended up in the way. At a minimum, I need to figure this part out.
Get a test piece of trans line to try out a flare tool if you are insisting on going that route
My flare tool that does 5/8 stainless was $400.00 just for reference
There are also hydraulic ones that are nice to have but I have not found one rated as high as the 400 manual one I got.
Cant you see what line pressure is in the datalogger? I thought there was a pid for it
There is also a line test port on side of most transmissions
Or am I confusing the names of the pressures
I can't datalog pressure, maybe too old of a pcm? I can, and will, use that test port for pressure testing when the motor is back in.
What I still need to sort out is where the aux cooler soft line attaches to the hard line at the factory. The flair end was cut back as it was in the way of the intercooler mount. Now, I'd like to get a flare end back on these two ends so the soft line doesn't want to seep anymore.
It will probably be best at this point to phone around till I find someone with a higher end flare tool and take the two lines to them.
I believe the new lines you can buy are a softer material. I had the same problem of trying to flare the stock so I gave up and put all new lines. One main thing, since i don't know how much bending there will be, but dont skimp on a bender, I've seen a cheap bender barely kink lines and they've caused overheating issues. Just another thing to keep in mind
Line pressure is the pressure coming out the pump so that tap was made to test that, have you found the location of the Line test port on your trans?
Do you have 4R70 or 4R100? I forget what they put inot the V8's.
There are different types of things that some nice flare tools can do like a bubble ended or even the quick disconnect fuel filter fitting type of flare. I don't know how to word that any better. lol
You might be able to just have a bubble type of flare done to the ends to keep the trans hoses from blowing off or leaking.
That's a good idea to see if someone has one that can just do the flare for you, save money and time maybe.
If you have the lines off I would expect they wouldn't charge that much.
Maybe a trans guy near you might have a good hydraulic one.
Another option would be to take the line off and take it to a shop that dose hydraulic lines for tractors and such and have them make what you want
I'm going to call the whole flare thing a fail. The two cut lines that I still need to deal with are made by Dorman. Might not be the best quality, but better than what I could do myself. If the line is a bit softer, that's even better for me as it will be easy to deal with the inter-cooler interference with a slight bend.
4point, 4r70w. I now know there is a test port on the drivers side of the transmission for line pressure. This will solve my pressure testing issue.
edit: although, these guys should be able to take care of me.
Dynamic Fluid Power and Westcan Hydraulic Lines | Dynamic Machine Corporation
I did some pressure testing on my 1998 4 door and posted it on youtube, I will have to go back and look at how high the readings went.
It was when I had a slipping torque converter and DTC. Turned out to be a valve body problem.
If the pressure doesn't turn out to be a problem, maybe swap that torque converter out for a stock one as a test?
It is just funny how Vroomzoomboom had a thrust failure and it turned out to be the pump was marred.
Now you are having the same problem, I guess you already looked at the torque converter where it enters the pump to look for marring?
If it turns out to be line pressure to high, cant you lower pressures in the tune?
Maybe I am just on too much Nyquil right now, been sick for a week now.
I love Nyquil, but only when I don't have to do anything but sleep.
I have examined, and taken all kinds of pictures of the splines on both the trans side and TC so I could enlarge them and take a close look. They all look great.
Yes, I can lower the pressures in the tune. Don Lasota recommends maxing out shift pressures at wot, but I'm thinking this might not be a good thing in some cases. I already lowered the wot shift pressures 30% in the tune, and will be loading that before any wot runs are done. Like you and everyone else says...Need to know line pressures.
It is strange that both Tim and I had/are having thrust issues. Must be the air up here.
Ditto, the compression fittings are way less sure of holding pressure. In rare cases they may work well for typical ATF pressures. But typically one or more will leak eventually.
Have you measured the one line going from the cooler to the trans? If that length is a match to what parts stores sell(say 36"), then you could buy one and bend it easier than doing the flared end.
I know when I put all new lines in, I used 3-5' lines and 2-12" lines. Used the 12in to connect to the transmission and bring a coupling below the exhaust for easier transmission removal later
But i also took my time and had extra. It was my first time ever flaring and bending pipe (only 19 so kinda expected to not have experience)
Iv'e been reading and trying to understand what I'm doing, since I clearly have no clue.
Where do I start? Google. Then I end up at TCCoA, the home of Jerry's mod. Since he was a designer on this transmission, I'm going to say he knows what he's talking about.
4pointslow, I do want to thank you for being the voice of reason warning me not to cut lines. Much appreciated.
1. Tim and I (And many of you here I'm sure [even if you didn't say it]) thought I was going down the wrong path thinking the coolers were creating a restriction increasing my line pressure. This was obviously a symptom of me not having a clue. I'm trying to get a clue.
2. Reading that optimum trans temp is between 160-180 degree's I also opted not to add another cooler. More cooling is not necessarily better, and I'm sure climate plays a part in what we choose to do here. I already apologized to Tim for wasting his time for going out and pulling one for me.
3. I'm opting out of adding a trans oil filter. It might not be a bad idea to add one, but if there's a catastrophic trans failure, the filter is actually after the radiator and external cooler which is too bad, as they would need replacing anyway. With my current issues, I don't want to change too many things till I get the thrust bearing issue sorted out.
4. The 2 hard trans cooler lines that were cut previously by the guy that welded a mount for my inter-cooler (The lines were in the way, so he cut them thinking it wouldn't be a big deal. Well, a line did pop off once, and I did try and fail at flaring once before. Tim does have a couple of lines, so I am going to replace them and figure out another way to attach the soft lines, even if I need to attempt bending the hard line slightly. More to come on this. Hopefully I can find an easy, workable solution.
5. I'm going to move my shift pressures back to very close to factory in my tuning, except for the 2-3 shift (I'll leave it higher). This was very interesting information for me. That, and I already have a valve body that has been modified by Lentech. It is possible that there is way to much line pressure. I will need to get a gauge on the transmission once the truck is together, and can add shift pressure if everything looks ok on the line pressures.
Read the info below from TCCoA (Some of you already have, but these notes are very important to where I am currently at).
No movement on my motor yet. Its not even apart to be inspected yet. I really hope my $1000.00 pistons are salvageable. I'm not even opposed to an after market block, depending on whats found on disassembly. Dimas says hes absolutely certain that once he is done the motor will be well over 400 crank HP. He says he cant remember the last time he built s motor that only made 400 horse. He feels even with minor head porting of my TW170's he will find another 30 horse (He could feel the imperfection in the exhaust ports).
I wonder what my wife will say to me when she sees the house line of credit suddenly bulge? I might be sleeping in that truck.
The learning curve is actually a crooked jagged friggin line. Each direction change is costly, and why I got out of the need for high-speed. Lol
When you get this issue sorted, you will have earned and paid for the education. Our passions drive us to keep going. Sometimes they drive us to victory, and sometimes to ruin. I sincerely hope, yours is a checkered flag.
Hang in there, I'm rooting for you!
The stronger blocks have jumped a lot in price in the last 10 years. If you might need one, start hunting so you might find a good used one with very little time on it. The several non Dart blocks turn up rarely, those are older, and bore size is harder to work out, different potentials etc. Stock blocks are not strong, but what kills them are big harmonics of any kind, detonation, rpm's and imbalances etc. You know all of that, well designed and tuned stock block engines have seen 600hp. Strokers push the limits more than a 3" stroke, and a turbo is far far more forgiving than a crank run supercharger. Those put a lot of pressure on the crank snout.
There's no magic equation to figure out what level you might break the block. But if you are very careful with tuning, I think you are below the danger threshold still. If tuned well, the boost level would be the final control.
I was given a deal on the doorman trans lines that I found hard to refuse. Even if they didn't work, I could return them. They worked fine.
I was able to cut the inter-cooler bracket back a bit and run the trans lines over the front of the inter cooler. Not as pretty, but I really don't think anyone will notice anyway.
I'm going to call this part done.
So, it looks like I'm going to end up with another new 347.
Block is pretty much toast. I'm pretty sure the when the pistons come out they will be all scratched up, just like a couple cylinder walls. Crank, toast...No surprise there.
The engine builder really wants to see a billet cover torque converter go in as he see's witness marks that the torque converter was pushing in to the flex plate super hard. This could be some ballooning of the tc, or too much line pressure in the trans pushing the tc against the flex plate. Maybe both...
So, here's the tc I think I'll go with.
FORD 11" HP Series 4R70 Torque Converter
CircleD has a great reputation. This one has a 2800 stall compared to a 2400 that I have currently. I want the higher stall as my truck was always soft out of the gate.
I'm still not sure what kind of a block I'm going with. Tim has a free factory block for me if I want it. That's pretty attractive, I have to say.
Buy once, cry (hard) once..
Liberator Dart 3331/347/363 Shortblock
$5000 = 363ci and the last short block you'll ever need.
You could have the fastest Ex on the planet Dono! Just think about it! Do it for your country! Think of the kids! Who else but you could attain it?? Think about the Glory to be had Dono! THE GLORY!!
Your a very bad man. lol
Where I'm struggling is that a dart block wont stop thrust bearings from being taken out.
Also, my last short block came from there, and the block seems to have been cursed from day one.
I didn't know that (or forgot). That stinks. They have such a good rep too..
On the other hand, I do like free as much as the next guy. Free is good!
I'm sorry to hear the rest of the engine is hurt too, ouch.
That TC looks good and I've read a couple of good suggestions for them on the Corral also. I have no real TC experience, but I've been impressed with the helpfulness of Alan of DirtyDogPerformance. He's been good to talk to on the phone 3-4 times I've called him. Does he still make TC's, and have you considered asking him what he thinks you need, and about the crank thrust issue?
Alan felt off a few years ago. I have no idea where he's at now.
don.....not that i am trying to talk you out of things BUT!
$5000 US would be roughly $6500 tim hortons, and thats before all the other garbage our government will throw at you
daily driver. from temps 35C to -50C (yes peps, thats no exaggeration either)
she's not a race truck
free, FREE stock block, that i am sure isnt trashed, but if the bores have marks in them, its gonna need to be bored and clearanced anyway