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Water pump failure leads to dead engine

Discussion in 'Stock 2011 - 2019 Ford Explorer Discussion' started by tlbig10, March 25, 2015.

^^Searches ExplorerForum.com^^





?

Should Ford cover part of all of this repair out of loyalty?

  1. Yes, a water pump failure at 95k should not destroy an engine

    85 vote(s)
    85.9%
  2. No, and please quit whining about it

    14 vote(s)
    14.1%
  1. peterk9

    peterk9 Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    I think the issue here is failures on low mileage vehicles, not high mileage ones. The water pump is a 'wear' item and as such is prone to fail, especially on high mileage vehicles, as are brake system parts, alternators, timing belts/chains etc. An 'externally' mounted water pump would also be doomed to fail although the replacement cost would be much less.
    There are many parts that have failed on brand new vehicles as the posts in this Forum have indicated, so why should certain engine parts be any different?

    Peter
     
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  3. sheltonfilms

    sheltonfilms Active Member

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    These are the years the pump started:

    Ford:
    Edge 2007-
    Explorer 2011 -
    Flex 2009 -
    Fusion Sport 2010 -
    Taurus 2008 -

    Lincoln:
    MKS 2009 -
    MKT 2010 -
    MKX 2007 -
    MKZ 2007 -

    Mazda:
    CX-9 2007 -

    Mercury:
    Sable 2008 -



    BTW there is a post I read somewhere that an Edge owner has 270,000 miles on the original water pump.
     
    Last edited: January 23, 2016
  4. Sixonemale

    Sixonemale Active Member

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    Understood that the water pump is a “wear” item that is prone to fail, hence the reason for this discussion. I would not compare it to brakes or the alternator which have easy access and relatively low cost to repair. I also would not compare it with a timing belt which has a stated mileage or yearly indicator in a maintenance manual of when to change it at a medium cost and sometimes lower cost if done by an independent mechanic. Also when timing belts are replaced, the water pump and pulleys are almost always replaced because manufacturers of these cars know that the water pump is a “wear” item and prone to failure. You are correct that an externally mounted water pump is also doomed to fail, but can usually be easily heard or fluid leaking which makes it easier to detect intial failure coupled with a low cost to replace it. In addition to that it is an easy item to proactively replace when mileage is high to alleviate any worries regarding the cooling system on a long road trip.

    The issues hear is that the water pump is buried in the engine block with no particular pin pointed sensor that allows someone to detect it when it begins to fail and can cause catastrophic damage to the engine. There is also no mention of the water pump in the maintenance schedule which goes up to 150,000 miles which implies that the water pump should last at least that long. However, the maintenance schedule does mention inspection of the cooling system periodically. How much of the general population is going to open there hood and look at the coolant reservoir on a regular basis to ensure that all is well like many people who post here. Time will tell, but I don’t think this issue has been well publicized thus far, even though these engines have been on the road for several years. My guess is that many that keep their vehicles with high mileage stomach the repair vs buying a new car.
     
    Last edited: January 23, 2016
  5. sheltonfilms

    sheltonfilms Active Member

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    All I can say is that you can thank all the people that buy new cars all the time and are driving the world to a throw away/non-serviceable society.

    It's a costly repair. Rear main seal is a wear item and you have to pull the trans or engine to replace that.

    Heater cores used to be easy to replace now you have to pull a dash. But this has now become the norm to the point that most mechanics can't even remember replacing a heater core without pulling a dash.

    People still complain about "these new cars you can't work on them because they are all computer controlled, blah blah blah."

    As far as a sensor, you already have one. It's called your eye balls. You use this same sensor to check the oil level, you can use it to check for leaking coolant at the weep hole. (This doesn't apply if you are one of the people under the TSB for having a blocked weep hole.)

    If you are really freaked out about screwing up your engine go buy a cooling system pressure tester and check it every couple weeks.
     
  6. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    I laugh when I read about how difficult it is and then think to myself, good thing you don't own a Superduty that requires motor work... many repairs require can removal..

    [​IMG]
     
  7. K_Redmond

    K_Redmond New Member

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    Hi. I am new to the Forum, but have been doing extensive searches I this subject. I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

    This Duratec 35 engine/water pump system is on the 2007-2014 Ford Edge, 2007-2010 Lincoln MKX, 2007-2014 Lincoln MKZ, 2008-2014 Ford Taurus, 2008-2009 Ford Taurus X, 2008-2009 Mercury Sable, 2009-2004 Ford Flex, 2012-2012 Ford Fusion Sport, and 2011-2014 Ford Explorer.

    You need to look at ALL of these forums I found this one by searching only on 'Duratech 35 problems' without the name of the model.

    I am a young man, limited budget, first child on the way, from a Ford loving family. Bought my 2010 Ford Edge Limited for $15000, just 10 months ago. Certified pre-owned from the same well respected Ford Dealership where the original owner had purchased it and just recently traded it in.

    Have just experienced catastrophic failure at 88000 miles due to water pump leaked and contaminated the engine oil with coolant.... $2300 quoted to replace water pump only, but told really need to replace engine too as bearings may be damaged ... total $7000.

    Records show that vehicle was meticulously maintained by previous owner and I have done the same. This has been my dream car and it has been running like a charm. I expected to drive it for 3 years and trade-up.... or 5 years with budget of $1000/yr for repairs (I got 10 years out of my Focus wagon).

    :mad: After only 10 months on a relatively new car, I am facing a $7000 repair bill, and it happened with no warning. Three days ago, a few miles from home, the check engine light came on. I immediately paid attention. Car sounded fine, no sign of trouble, figured I would take it in to dealer after work.... and at about that point, the temperature gauge started to climb. As soon as I saw it heading for the red zone, I pulled over, turned if off and called the tow truck to take it to the dealership where I bought it. I understood the danger to the engine if I drove it overheated. Even though it is winter here and outside temperature was below zero, this gauge was climbing pretty fast.

    The rest of the story can be found by searching the internet. The internal water pump (what were they thinking?) leaked coolant into the engine oil. Almost simultaneously, the sensor recognized a problem in the engine due to contaminated oil/bearings coming apart/oil pressure dropping just as coolant had dropped to a level that caused temperature to rise.

    I think Ford is praying that these incidents remain isolated and unpublished. You won't see a recall. I wonder how many of these have happened under warranty, so we don't hear about them?

    But we ALL know that water pumps do not have the same life span as the engine. Now we also know that these vehicles have a design that has the potential to take out the motor with it when it fails... so what does it matter if it fails within warranty OR at anytime after 60,000 miles? Since when is this acceptable?

    Who wants to pay thousands of dollars for a premium used vehicle that could experience catastrophic failure at any moment? If it really is so rare, then clearly there was a defect in that particular vehicle, and Ford should eat the cost! But I think it is happening more frequently than we know.

    HELP! Any ideas? I can't wait for a class action suit to recover my costs. Ford denies there is a problem. I am waiting to see if I can negotiate anything with the dealership to lower the costs of the repairs. May move it to our trusted family service garage and have them replace the motor & water pump...they have quoted about $4000 - but there wouldn't be the same warranty.

    You know the water pump will leak/fail again at some point, so only recourse is to sell this time bomb to another victim. Whatever I do, I am pooched on this purchase. Will never buy another vehicle with this engine.... Love the EDGE... I am heartbroken.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: January 23, 2016
  8. Sixonemale

    Sixonemale Active Member

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    Last edited: January 23, 2016
  9. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    Redmond,

    Very sorry to hear your situation as I know no one wants to have to go through something like this. Couple things that I'd like to add.

    First, it does not matter whether you have an independent mechanic put a new motor in or Ford, you will get the same warranty. You will get a 2 year, unlimited mile warranty. Ford has changed their policy on parts/accessories and you get the warranty regardless. If it fails, an independent mechanic can fix it within the 2 years and you can submit the bill to Ford for reimbursement.

    Second, again the situation really sucks but the big picture is that there are over a million 5th gen explorers on the road and there are only 2 water pump failures posted. Considering the warranty is 3yr/36k, I'm pretty sure that if someone was given an estimate of $7,000, they'd come to the forums as well just like you did. Now if you want to add in the fusions or the edges, of course one can do that but then you also have to add in the millions of each of those on the road to get the big picture. Fact is, I don't believe this to be a major issue.

    I have an Explorer as well as a Ford F350 diesel.. one member just had an exhaust valve break off in the motor which totaled the motor. How much do you think that exhaust valve cost??? It's a $6.50 part that totaled a $19,000 motor. Currently there are 2 people going through this.. one at 102,000 miles (just 2,000 miles outside of warranty) and one at 122,000 miles (diesels are covered 5yr/100k).

    The reality is that something can fail.. there are hundreds of internal parts that can cause a failure.

    This is one reason that I buy an ESP on every vehicle. It's because I simply don't want these types of surprises on the slight chance that something fails like this. After my 8 year warranty is just about up, I'll be selling/trading for my next vehicle.

    Lastly, if the dealership hasn't taken the motor apart to inspect, do not believe that you have to have your motor replaced. Because you were so quick to shut the car off when you saw your temp start to rise might have saved the motor. IT was running fine and smoothly upon shutdown.. I'd have it opened up to inspect.

    If you go to an independent, order your motor through Autonation as they sell 10% above cost so you can save $600-$800 alone just with that.

    http://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...rim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/engine-cat/engine-scat

    N/A 9H6Z-6006-ARM ENGINE1
    EDGE, MKX; W/O TRAILER TOWING PKG.
    $4,677.12 $3,858.62

    N/A 9T4Z-6006-FC ENGINE1
    EDGE, MKX; W/TRAILER TOWING PKG.
    $4,085.97 $3,370.93

    9T4Z-6009-BA SHORT BLOCK1
    EDGE, MKX; W/TRAILER TOWING PKG.
    $2,792.77 $2,150.43
     
  10. sheltonfilms

    sheltonfilms Active Member

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    You say certified pre-owned. So where is your warranty.

    Certified Pre-owned means 12-month comprehensive/12,000 miles from the time you purchase plus powertrain for 7 years, 100,000 miles.

    Water pump is covered under powertrain warranty as listed on their website.

    To be certified pre-owned it must be 5 model years or less than current and have less than 80,000 miles.

    You meet the years requirement but I doubt the car you bought had 80,000 miles and went to 100,000 miles in 10 months.

    Need to double check your paperwork.
     
  11. bigdude2468

    bigdude2468 Active Member

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    Based on the apparent millions of 3.5 liter vehicles on the road as shown below this cannot possibly be a design flaw. If this was a problem Ford would be repairing scores of these vehicles under their ESP. My dealer offers a no charge 100,000 mile power train warranty that if this was other than an occasional occurrence they would be going broke, replacing water pumps / engines.

    2011 -2015 Explorer production(which had the (Duratec engines) was 900,000 not counting Police Interceptors or any of the other vehicles listed below. My guess is over half would have the 3.5 versus the 4 cylinder. If even 5% of the water pumps failed that would be thousands and thousands of vehicles, no way. You would have lawyers all over the country fighting for class action status.

    Edge 2007-
    Explorer 2011 -
    Flex 2009 -
    Fusion Sport 2010 -
    Taurus 2008 -

    Lincoln:
    MKS 2009 -
    MKT 2010 -
    MKX 2007 -
    MKZ 2007 -

    Mazda:
    CX-9 2007 -

    Mercury:
    Sable 2008 -
     
  12. edino

    edino Member

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    This is why my current car is a Toyota Landcruiser 5.7 v8, that I bought just 3 months ago and I am happier than I was ever with my last Ford's. Perfect paint-job, no significant quality issues (look at their forums), and no rattles. Great to go for a first service without any complaint! Did not have that with my last 3 Fords!!!!

    After 28 years of Fords, and huge loyalty, I am done with the low quality, questionable design and lack of long term customer service from Ford in the UAE. We still have the 2015 Explorer that cost us 55kusd; been 3 times unplanned in the shop in the first year! Still unresolved is the weak AC power at 120F, and the poor body panel fit; which is now both deemed normal by Ford. Although the drive is great, the overall car, and build quality is questionable. My wife, who decides of her next ride says she happy with the ride, but shocked with the fit and finish, and AC performance. It is still on the table if she goes for the next Ford in 2017, or moves away from Ford like I did.


    Ps: I would have considered a 2016 F150. But because I faced may unresolved issues with our 2013 Lincoln MKX (power steering noise), and 2009 and 2011 Expeditions (aluminium rear door paint bubbling that was not warranted by Ford, under the clause that only perforation is warranted). Its a shame that Ford is able to communicate that they are not covering paint bubbling on a car that was just less than 2 years old!!! It has cost me 2.5kusd on repairs that Ford should have paid. Its easy to say bye bye to Ford for ever!
     
    Last edited: January 23, 2016
  13. Zippyworld

    Zippyworld New Member

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    I've had my 2011 in for a strange noise that I thought was a belt/tensioning pulley problem, turns out (after several visits) that they determined it's the water pump. I'm just shy of 63k miles so it seems to fit with some of the posts here.

    I was also told it would take 1 to 2 weeks for a new water pump to come in, must be a shortage for some reason.
     
  14. Sixonemale

    Sixonemale Active Member

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    Well said and I am in complete agreement with what you've said. I’ve owned two Explorers in the past, a 1991 Eddie Bauer 4s4 and 2002 Eddie Bauer 4x4, both of which had many problems vs the Lexus we own, some of which were proprietary to Ford and had to be taken to the dealer to be fixed. With our Lexus I noticed a tremendous difference in build quality and it’s very easy to maintain with minimal cost and assurance of no catastrophic engine problems lurking due to their maintenance schedule of critical engine components. The paint jobs on Lexus are second to none IMO, very well done. Extremely quiet cabin with no rattles, something Toyota/Lexus have excelled at for years.

    I was not looking for a Ford when I bought my 2015 Explorer, but the deal looked too good to pass up, plus it passed the test drive for overall comfort, handling and power. I now wish I would have done more due diligence, especially in regard to the water pump design. I avoided the turbo because I owned a Ford with a turbo in the past and it failed at 50,000 miles like clockwork. I’m sure the turbos today are improved, but once bitten, twice shy on turbos, never again. I like the looks of the 2015 Explorer and like the way it drives for the most part, much more like a car than a truck and Ford did quiet down the cabin somewhat, no doubt. The overall build quality is very questionable and cannot be compared to Lexus/Toyota IMO. I still don’t know why Ford hasn’t dissected a Lexus/Toyota in the past and improved their cars based on lessons learned from this dissection. There is a very good reason that Landcruisers and 4runners are fairly high priced and hold their resale value extremely well, build quality.
     
  15. CajunFordEx

    CajunFordEx Active Member

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    There are folks that beg to differ with you.
    http://www.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/4Runner/

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/lexus.html

    What you guys are saying about Ford is also said about those other brands.
     
  16. Sixonemale

    Sixonemale Active Member

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    My friend and I both bought 1991 Ford Explorers and we both had the exact same front end and brake issues, etc. In 2002 i bought an Explorer and he bought a 4Runner, no comparison which truck was more reliable and had less issues. I think only issue he has had out of standard maintenance was sensor that went bad, plus his 4Runner is still running very strong at about 200,000 miles. Lastly, when you watch safari specials or see documentaries in the middle east or Africa where people are traveling in the middle of remote deserts where reliability could mean life or death, you won't see any Explorers, 9 times out of 10 they drive Toyota's. I wish I could be touting Ford's, but I now own a Lexus and Ford and the build quality IMO is dramatically different.
     
    Last edited: January 24, 2016
  17. peterk9

    peterk9 Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    I don't think many of those 'over there' countries likely have Ford dealerships. I had 3 highlanders over a 10 year period and 1 Explorer (2011) and none presented any problems and neither has my current vehicle. I was on the Highlander forum for many years and trust me, it isn't much different than the Explorer forum. The only thing I've noticed about the Toyota products is that they are always a few years behind in bringing the latest technology to market.

    Peter
     
  18. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    If you are going to compare Lexus with a Ford product, compare Lexus with lincoln. Ford should be compared with Toyota and Toyota is VERY boring and bland. Plus the front end design that they are going with is awful.
     
  19. Sixonemale

    Sixonemale Active Member

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    Even though we own a Lexus it's the exact same 4.3L engine Toyota uses with identical transmissions. I'm not arguing the looks of the Explorer vs 4Runner, I'm trying to stay on topic about the water pump. It's a $40 some dollar part placed inside of the engine block that is a ticking time bomb IMO. A water pump should cost about $300 to $400 to replace and should not be something that can cause catastrophic engine failure without any warning as some have posted it has. Again, I think Ford needs to step up to plate and provide some sort compensation package for those whose engine was ruined by a leaking water pump. Now that I'm aware of this issue I will not keep this Explorer for a lengthy period of time, not a great risk/reward profile by any stretch.
     
  20. Sixonemale

    Sixonemale Active Member

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    Peter, As you've stated you lease your cars and barely drive them, which is good for you in regard to reliability, etc. I have been on one of the Lexus forums for years and to me there is a stark difference in regard to reliability and build quality of their cars that are 2-5 years old.
     
    Last edited: January 24, 2016
  21. peterk9

    peterk9 Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    Only the last 2 have not been driven on a regular basis due to my total retirement. That however does not change the fact that the posts in the Toyota Highlander forum are much like the ones in this one. Many complaints and unhappy owners were encountered during the years I was active there.

    Peter
     

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