Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[sheltonfilms]

So what is our total amount a cars now with this issue? What years? I'm seeing that the majority are 2011 models. Obviously the 2011s will have more miles than later model years.

 

[peterk9]

So what is our total amount a cars now with this issue? What years? I'm seeing that the majority are 2011 models. Obviously the 2011s will have more miles than later model years.

Only 2 more added since my post on September 3rd.Water pump failure leads to dead engine One 2011 Limited and one 2011 MKX. This brings to 8 the verified failures.

Peter

 

[Sixonemale]

So what is our total amount a cars now with this issue? What years? I'm seeing that the majority are 2011 models. Obviously the 2011s will have more miles than later model years.

Unfortunately this forum is probably representative of less than 1% of all fifth generation Explorer owners, therefore, statistics from this forum are somewhat meaningless.

 

[thefranchise713]

Ford should absolutely be on the hook for a seized engine due to an internal water pump failure whether it happens at 50,000 miles or 140,000 miles, etc. The only requirements in the maintenance manual are periodic inspections and replacing the coolant at 100,000 miles. Had awd_sr known that his engine was going to seize due to a failed water pump do you really think he would have kept it vs selling it or trading it in? When external water pumps begin to fail or are failing you sometimes hear noises, see coolant on the ground and/or the temperature gauge goes up and that is more than likely coupled with a check engine light coming on, nothing like what happened in awd_sr's case, no warning whatsoever. Now unfortunately he has to make a major decision as to whether throw money at an older vehicle or to take a loss and move on to buy another vehicle, not to mention the inconvenience of not having a car and maybe having to rent one.

With technology today, almost any vehicle made should run to 100,000 miles trouble fee with only normal maintenance being done. This is a poor design that Ford should take ownership of. Let's hope a third letter is sent out soon.

We have no entitlement but I hope you're right. Especially since the 3.5L NA is one of my favorite engines but for this glaring oversight.

 

[Sixonemale]

We have no entitlement but I hope you're right. Especially since the 3.5L NA is one of my favorite engines but for this glaring oversight.

I'm in full agreement about entitlement and I have said that I can stomach paying $1,600 to replace an internal failed water pump or $40 part. What I have a problem with is the design for starters. More specifically, they should have put an iron clad double wall between the internal water pump and where the oil sits. I may be technically incorrect in what I'm saying, but there should not be a possibility that when the internal water pump fails that coolant can seep into the oil. With that said, the greatest problem of the design is that if coolant leaks into the oil there is no sensor or warning, unless you get lucky somehow and can detect it by either seeing milky oil on the dip stick or that the level in the overflow tank is very low and in both cases it may be too late and result in having to buy a new engine.

In summary, if the owner if Ford did the periodic inspections and the the owner or Ford changed their coolant at 100,000 miles per the maintenance manual, how could it be their fault if the coolant leaked into the oil and seized the engine before 150,000 miles?

At this point I'm hoping that not IF, but when my internal water pump fails, if I still own the vehicle, it is an external leak. The only other option would be to proactively replace it at some sort of mileage interval like 100,000 miles or so and have the plugs and maybe timing chain done at the same time to save on the labor cost since the engine will pulled and the plugs will be easily accessible as well as the timing chain.

 

[07CSPony]

Add one, our early 2012 (11/2012) is currently being torn down at our dealership for timing chain/water pump issues. Of course the extended warranty expired 11/12/2017. 88,000 miles. I also own a 2013 Taurus with a 3.5L and my son owns a 2015 SHO with the blown 3.5L. If I was a betting man, I would guess our 12 has the old style water pump and I am praying our Taurus has the new style. Of course FORD is no help at all. The customer care center is a joke. Calltakers only, then you get an e-mail denial. No one to talk to other than some guy at a PO box in Deaborne. I am sincerely questioning my blue oval loyalty.

 

[tripplec]

I read there are two block of the 3.5L F150's etc have the pump outside but Explorers no, not enough room they say so its inside. It takes out the motor without you knowing.
For myself I recently got the 3.5L in a 4WD Highlander since any Explorer from 2011 onwards has that problem. Later years are better but its still inside plus other issue. All made it a deal breaker.

 

[peterk9]

........For myself I recently got the 3.5L in a 4WD Highlander since any Explorer from 2011 onwards has that problem. Later years are better but its still inside plus other issue. All made it a deal breaker.

In 2020 the Explorer LS will have the longitudinal engine so I guessing the water pump may be back to an external one.

Peter

 

[tripplec]

Maybe they got some better engineers now. LOL
I don't like Turbo's and Ecoboost is turbo. Naturally aspired engines is what I look for.

 

[peterk9]

Maybe they got some better engineers now. LOL
I don't like Turbo's and Ecoboost is turbo. Naturally aspired engines is what I look for.

Going RWD.

 

[Sixonemale]

Add one, our early 2012 (11/2012) is currently being torn down at our dealership for timing chain/water pump issues. Of course the extended warranty expired 11/12/2017. 88,000 miles. I also own a 2013 Taurus with a 3.5L and my son owns a 2015 SHO with the blown 3.5L. If I was a betting man, I would guess our 12 has the old style water pump and I am praying our Taurus has the new style. Of course FORD is no help at all. The customer care center is a joke. Calltakers only, then you get an e-mail denial. No one to talk to other than some guy at a PO box in Deaborne. I am sincerely questioning my blue oval loyalty.

It's always a shame to read about an internal water pump failure, I hope the water pump did not leak internally and therefore hope your engine has not been damaged. I know this engine has been around for awhile, but as I've said before the fifth generation Explorer is still very young, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out with a more hands on and vocal crowd, assuming many owners have owned previous generation Explorers and have certain maintenance expectations.

 

[07CSPony]

It's always a shame to read about an internal water pump failure, I hope the water pump did not leak internally and therefore hope your engine has not been damaged. I know this engine has been around for awhile, but as I've said before the fifth generation Explorer is still very young, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out with a more hands on and vocal crowd, assuming many owners have owned previous generation Explorers and have certain maintenance expectations.

Fortunately it was caught early with minimal leakage into the oil pan but the loose shaft caused problems with the timing chain. There is great information on the Flex forum as the 3.5 has been in the flex since introduction in 2007. Ford reportedly redesigned the water pump (beefed up the shaft and sprocket) and chain to accomodate the new pump and intro'd them into the 3.5 in the 12 model year. Timing Chain / Water Pump Replacement - 2010 EB - Ford Flex Forum You can see in the photos the old and new pump and chain in side by side pictures.

 

[Sixonemale]

Fortunately it was caught early with minimal leakage into the oil pan but the loose shaft caused problems with the timing chain. There is great information on the Flex forum as the 3.5 has been in the flex since introduction in 2007. Ford reportedly redesigned the water pump (beefed up the shaft and sprocket) and chain to accomodate the new pump and intro'd them into the 3.5 in the 12 model year. Timing Chain / Water Pump Replacement - 2010 EB - Ford Flex Forum You can see in the photos the old and new pump and chain in side by side pictures.

Glad to hear that you caught your water pump leak early enough so that the engine was not damaged. Also, very interesting information on what appears to be a change in the design of the water pump and timing chain. It is an absolute fact that all 3.5's built let's say from 2013 on have the new shaft/sprocket and timing chain? Lastly, although highly dependent on the cost of living of a specific area, would you be willing to share what you are paying for this repair with a simple breakdown? Thanks

 

[sheltonfilms]

Fortunately it was caught early with minimal leakage into the oil pan but the loose shaft caused problems with the timing chain. There is great information on the Flex forum as the 3.5 has been in the flex since introduction in 2007. Ford reportedly redesigned the water pump (beefed up the shaft and sprocket) and chain to accomodate the new pump and intro'd them into the 3.5 in the 12 model year. Timing Chain / Water Pump Replacement - 2010 EB - Ford Flex Forum You can see in the photos the old and new pump and chain in side by side pictures.

According to part descriptions the change occurred on 1/2/2012. Some parts are listed up to 1/2/2012 and some are from 1/2/2012. Weird that they don't show a revision change in the last block of digits in the part number. Being in the automotive industry and knowing how well FIFO works (first in first out), I would push this change date to the end of February.

Also from what I see in diagrams they moved away from a double concentric o-ring system to a single deep o-ring style (think of the rubberband shaped intake seals on some models).

 

[07CSPony]

Glad to hear that you caught your water pump leak early enough so that the engine was not damaged. Also, very interesting information on what appears to be a change in the design of the water pump and timing chain. It is an absolute fact that all 3.5's built let's say from 2013 on have the new shaft/sprocket and timing chain? Lastly, although highly dependent on the cost of living of a specific area, would you be willing to share what you are paying for this repair with a simple breakdown? Thanks

$3430.50. Just picked it up. I had them save the old parts.

 

[Junkmann2]

$3430.50. Just picked it up. I had them save the old parts.

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With the scoring of the bearing and housing, and the amount of heat marks that it is showing, I am wondering what was going on inside that engine to cause that. That scoring and resulting heat is what caused the seal to fail. I would also be wondering where those metal particles went. If they are loose inside the engine, they can cause a main or rod bearing failure. A magnetic drain plug might help to catch some of the particles before they can do any damage, however, a magnet isn't going to catch the aluminum particles. Did you discuss this with the service manager, and if so, what was his thoughts. If you loose a rod or main bearing, you are going to going back into that engine for another expensive repair.

 

[aypanthony]

I would assume, the bigger pieces of metal dropped into the oil pan/sump and stayed there. Any other suspended pieces should be caught by the oil filter......in theory.

 

[Sixonemale]

Fortunately it was caught early with minimal leakage into the oil pan but the loose shaft caused problems with the timing chain. There is great information on the Flex forum as the 3.5 has been in the flex since introduction in 2007. Ford reportedly redesigned the water pump (beefed up the shaft and sprocket) and chain to accomodate the new pump and intro'd them into the 3.5 in the 12 model year. Timing Chain / Water Pump Replacement - 2010 EB - Ford Flex Forum You can see in the photos the old and new pump and chain in side by side pictures.

$3430.50. Just picked it up. I had them save the old parts.

It's always smart to ask them to save the old parts to verify the repair. From what I see the water pump bearings may have failed first causing the spindle to become lose which caused the timing chain to fall off the sprocket or the bearings going bad was due to the timing chain slowly becoming disengaged from the single tooth row on the sprocket that caused it to wiggle and ruin the bearings before finally falling off. If it was the later, the redesigned duel tooth sprocket and more beefed up timing chain makes sense, but if the root cause was the bearings going bad that caused the coolant to leak, I'm not sure having a more heavy duty timing chain and double tooth sprocket would do anything more than to prevent the timing chain from falling off the sprocket.

Bottom-line, anything that spins a lot at high RPM's does not last forever, wheel bearings, turbos, etc., so having it inside the engine block is a poor design at best. I also assume the 3.5L engine was put in the Explorer to meet CAFE emissions standards, but with $3,400 repair bill, the emissions standards may have been met, but with no fuel savings to the owner.

 

[sheltonfilms]

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Does that weep hole have a spring loaded valve?

 

[BMan5150]

Question-does the Explorer Sport’s 3.5L ecoboost have the same water pump design? Anything different about it? I’ve got 70K miles and would like to keep it for another 30-40k.