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Water pump failure leads to dead engine

Discussion in 'Stock 2011 - 2019 Ford Explorer Discussion' started by tlbig10, March 25, 2015.

^^Searches ExplorerForum.com^^





?

Should Ford cover part of all of this repair out of loyalty?

  1. Yes, a water pump failure at 95k should not destroy an engine

    82 vote(s)
    86.3%
  2. No, and please quit whining about it

    13 vote(s)
    13.7%
  1. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    Last edited: September 28, 2018
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  3. hpad06

    hpad06 Member

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    In this video, the old one is one seal, the new one he replaced is 2 seals

     
  4. Turdle

    Turdle This is my custom user title Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    From my post over a year ago, (sep 5 2017) where i mention rockauto lists a different part after 2011



    Ford just listed the new number, not the number it replaced to cover the a$$es on this I bet.
     
  5. mcpcartier

    mcpcartier New Member

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    A couple of clarifications...

    I think blwnsmoke is referring to the rows of teeth on the water pump gear, not the number of gaskets.

    And blwnsmoke's note about 2011 through 2015 being a single gear doesn't match what I found. His note about a change in MY2012 does make sense because in my 2013 I found a double gear water pump/intake phasers. Here is a pic of my 2013 with the factory pump just before changing it. Clearly double geared (two rows of teeth on the water pump and wide teeth on the phasers).

    [​IMG]
     
  6. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    I forgot to edit that part about 11-15.

    Now I dont know if I should upgrade everything or just go with another one of the original pumps. This has happened to 12+s as well so not sure this would prevent it from happening in the future.
     
  7. mcpcartier

    mcpcartier New Member

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    Tough call.....but I think i'd do it. The timing kit came with a wide chain, double gear on water pump, and wide crank gear. But not new (wide tooth phasers) which I believe are about $100 a pop. My materials cost about $600....adding in the phasers would push that up to $800. Assuming you don't need to change the exhaust phasers and secondary chains.
     
  8. hpad06

    hpad06 Member

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    --removed to avoid duplicate post
     
    Last edited: October 17, 2018
  9. limited3.5

    limited3.5 New Member

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    Its a lot more complex as it seems. At least 3 different pumps designs + different timing chains during the years...
    A bit of summary of what I have found so far. Hope it is helpful.

    1. The very first water pumps appear to be the seriously flawed ones - 1 seal / 1 gear/teeth design
    Leaks from seal or from gear shaft.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    2. Somewhere in the 2011-2012 there is the 2 seal design / 1 ?? gear/teeth water pump

    Not supposed to leak from seal since there is a hole after the first seal for leaking out.
    Still the gear shaft is problematic so it appears to be leaking from there directly in the engine.
    Plus the gear shaft appears to be stressed by the timing chain.

    [​IMG]


    3. Later they add a redesigned (2013 ??) - 2 seal / 2 gear/teeth water pump and as we see in the posting.
    [​IMG]


    5.
    2015 Explorer has water pump part no. DG1Z-8501-C
    Replaces: AT4Z-8501-A, DG1Z-8501-A, DG1Z-8501-B, PW-515-, PW-533-, PW-566-, AA5Z*8501*C, PW*518*


    6.Sometime 2016 may be... the very latest one -
    Explorer 2017+ - water pump part number AT4Z-8501-B
    which replaces AT4Z*8501*CA, PW*531*


    From what it seems Ford is at least trying. Every few years they try optimize the pump to mitigate the issue , given the fact the design (internal water pump) cannot be changed.
    It appears on the latest Explorer 2016+ things are much better from that perspective.


    got me wondering ...do we have somebody with leaking water pump (less than 120K miles) on the latest models 2015+...because from what I could see anywhere in the forums and on the Internet, seems only the first generations Explorers/Edges, etc are complaining so far. Don't see anything from 2016+ where the very latest design is incorporated.

    Kind of reminds me of back in the days when we had to change the timing belt and we always changed the water pump at around 100K. Except here its a lot more expensive for labour :(
     
    Last edited: October 29, 2018
  10. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    The double geared pump came out in the middle of the 2012MY Explorer so yes there have been failures of the double geared pump.
     
  11. mcpcartier

    mcpcartier New Member

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    @limited3.5....I had a version number 3 in your list above and it started to leak at 118,410 miles. It never leaked into the oil, strictly out the weep hole above the alternator. So from what I can tell the journal seal on the water side gave out but the seal on the oil side held....which gave the coolant one path....through the failed seal into the journal area which has a weep hole pathway to that slot....which leads to a drain above the alternator. So I had orange coolant dripping (eventually turned into a stream) onto my alternator.

    Don't know about versions 5 and 6 in your summary (why did you skip the #4...don't like it). Installed a new pump earlier this year, June 2018, and installed AC Delco P/N 252-955. I have no idea which version of the pumps you identified above it is....hoping it lasts at least 120,000 miles so I don't need to pull that all apart again.

    BTW....the pic above is from my 2013 limited and that is the original pump that failed at 118,410
     
  12. Keith N

    Keith N Elite Explorer

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    I know this is a sore issue and if you come to this forum, you will leave thinking your water pump is doomed. I am curious why consumers reports shows engine major and engine cooling as green, or highly reliable for the early year models (2011/2012). You would think if this was a widespread issue it would not be solid green. It leads me to believe that the failure rate is small, but big enough Ford has attempted fixes/improvements. The failures are amplified on this board by those who seek it out. But again, what are odds that Blownsmoke, long term member, just happened to have issues with his pump. Would be nice to know real world failure rates.
     
  13. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    It is not widespread but the problem is as many have stated, that even if it does fail, it should not destroy an engine. With such sudde. Failure and a major expense, people flock to the internet searching for the issue that they have just experienced and then find this thread. They then, join the forum and post about it.

    We went over numbers earlier in this thread, this motor came out in 2007.. so you have 12 years of manufacturing into almost a dozen vehicles (Ford, Mazda and Lincoln).. you have many millions of these motors on the road.. so yes some will fail (a very small fraction of them) but the problem still lies... it should NOT destroy a motor over a water pump failure.... and it should not cost $1,400 to change out a common replacement part like a water pump. No different then to charge $1,400 to change out an alternator.

    These are cheap parts and nobody expects to pay this type of expense.
     
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  14. fast_dave

    fast_dave Active Member

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    Great point Odrapnew: For what it's worth, in my 37 years of bumper-to-bumper shade tree wrenching on cars as well as a 5 years of that working "professionally" on off-road heavy duty equipment (Backhoes), I've only had 1 or 2 water pumps leak from the gasket that surrounds the water-pump body. Every other water pump that's failed has leaked from the shaft seal...

    And to expand on that - of those water pumps that that leaked past the shaft seal, 80% involved a bad/worn bearing issue, and in 20% the shaft bearing was fine and it was the shaft seal that failed.

    Regardless; No matter how many used/fairly priced Explorers I see advertised on the ol' interweb (Autotrader & Car Gurus), Ford's design flaw of placing a Water Pump inside of the timing cover on the 3.5 and 3.7 prevents me from buying a V-6 current generation Explorer. I just can't pull the trigger knowing what I see/know...

    LINK TO ARTICLE: Kessler Topaz Meltzer & Check, LLP Announces A Consumer Class Action Filed Against Ford For Defective Water Pumps

    LINK TO LAWSUIT FILING: https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FordPumps.pdf
     
    Last edited: November 2, 2018
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  15. Keith N

    Keith N Elite Explorer

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    It’s interesting also in that Subaru is issuing a recall to fix soft valve springs in 100,000+ cars from 2012-2013 because engine could stall and there is engine damage also when spring fails. It seems Subaru is really standing behind their product. What is ford doing on their water pump issue? Nothing it appears. Sorry about your luck. Sue us. What a good way to treat your customers. If the failure rate was truly low, it should not be a big deal to extend coverage.
     
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  16. bigdude2468

    bigdude2468 Active Member

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    I agree, Ford is missing an opportunity to make it right by customers. They don't have to give the water pump a life time warranty, extend it to eight years, 125,000 miles like GM did when they had a problem with the 6T transmission. I will not buy another Ford product due to this omission along with the hood bubbling problem. I have also owned three Dodge Caravans, in the case of the last two I received letters from Chrysler extending the warranty on items that have become problems. The 2006 they extended coverage on the rear AC that would corrode. Subsequently ours failed and was repaired with 80,000 miles on it no charge. Our 2012 Caravan I received a letter extending the engine warranty to cover a possible head gasket leak due to an issue with the rear head casting. So far no problem but it's nice having that letter in the glove box. Unfortunately Ford no longer monitors this board, another mistake.
     
  17. fast_dave

    fast_dave Active Member

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    Clarification to Minter66: FORD Adding a 2nd water pump body gasket does not change the fact that the design of the 3.5 & 3.7 V-6 engine has NOT been changed - specifically the water pump is mounted to the engine, INSIDE of the timing Chain Cover. Bad design...

    NOTE to FORD Engine Engineers: Oil and Water do not mix...
     
  18. peterk9

    peterk9 Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    With the transverse mounted engine I don't believe there was room to put an external pump. As mentioned before, this should be corrected with the 2020 model and the longitudinally mounted engine.

    Peter
     
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  19. Keith N

    Keith N Elite Explorer

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    I don’t buy there was room theory. Toyota had the water pump on outside of the 3.5 liter v6 in rav 4. That’s a class smalller suv than explorer. Nobody here knows the real reasons. Only ford.

    Keith
     
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  20. blwnsmoke

    blwnsmoke Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    You do not have to buy it buy it but is true. Every fwd vehicle used the 3.5/3.7 engine with internal water pump. Every rwd vehicle with 3.5 had an external water pump. There is/was no reason to have 2 different versions of the same engine. Fact is, as soon as they went rwd and could turn the motor 90 degrees, they could fit the external and did it for obvious reasons.

    And I got this specifically from an engineer who worked on it.
     
  21. jade97

    jade97 Active Member

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    If I am not mistaken, the 3.0 in the 500/Montego had the water pump running off the cam exterior to the front side head (hung over the transmission). At least that's what it looked like on the 2 2005's I had.
     

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