Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[tlbig10]

I forgot to follow up with this thread. Drove out to Indio three weeks ago, paid the balance of the $7400 bill, and drove it straight home. Other than them forgetting to screw the coolant reservoir tank back on, the Explorer has been running fine.

 

[dcm0123]

Durability of Explorer engines

Sorry to hear about this. With the turbo I4 and 3.5 V6 having issues, I am now looking at other manufactures SUV's to replace my 2012 Camry. This forum has changed my mind about the Explorer. These forums are a wealth of knowledge when making a decision such as this. I am glad to see Ford has a person on the forum trying to help solve issues but it sounds like corporate office wanted to send a message- the warranty stops at the mileage stated. Some states may have other laws dealing with suitability of a product for its intended purpose which may help.

Having a technical back ground I was interested in why this occurred. Water pumps are known to fail (has on every other vehicle I have owned) especially at high mileage by leaking through the shaft seal. If the pump is external to the engine, the shaft seal leaks, drips on the ground, you notice it and have it fixed.

Since the 3.5 engine is designed with the seal/pump inside the engine, the water will go into the oil and that will be the end of the engine.

I was considering the Turbo 4 but then I noticed the problem with carbon forming on the valves due to the direct injection system. This causes the engine to run rough. Only solution Ford has is head replacement. Ford says trying to clean on the valves on the engine can ruin the turbo.

The 4.0 engine in my 2005 Explorer was very well designed and durable. The same engine was in my 2001 and had 200K on it before it was in an accident. Ford was one of the first manufactures who took the water passages out of the intake manifold which is another cause of water leaking into the oil. I have seen many engines ruined due to water leaking internally.

 

[1995E]

I found these list of steps on another forum. Yikes...

Raise and safely support the vehicle.
Drain the cooling system.
Loosen the exhaust flexible pipe clamp and disconnect the 2 exhaust hangers.
Remove the 4 nuts, the exhaust flexible pipe and the Y-pipe as an assembly. Discard the nuts and the gasket.
Remove the LH and RH catalytic converters. Refer to the Exhaust Manifold procedure for more information on catalytic converter removal.
If equipped, remove the heat shield and disconnect the block heater electrical connector.
Remove the RH cylinder block drain plug or, if equipped, the block heater. Allow the coolant to drain from the cylinder block into a suitable container.
Remove the LH cylinder block drain plug. Allow the coolant to drain from the cylinder block into a suitable container.
Remove the engine front cover.
Rotate the crankshaft clockwise and align the timing marks on the Variable Camshaft Timing (VCT) assemblies
Install the special tool onto the flats of the LH camshafts.
Install the special tool onto the flats of the RH camshafts.
Remove the 3 bolts and the RH VCT housing.
Remove the 3 bolts and the LH VCT housing.
Remove and discard the VCT housing seals.
Remove the 2 bolts and the primary timing chain tensioner.
Remove the primary timing chain tensioner arm.
Remove the 2 bolts and the lower LH primary timing chain guide.
Remove the primary timing chain.
Remove the 2 bolts and the upper LH primary timing chain guide.
Remove the RH primary timing chain guide lower bolt.
Loosen the RH primary timing chain guide upper bolt. Rotate the guide and tighten the bolt.
Remove the 8 bolts and the water pump.
Thoroughly clean and inspect all mating surfaces.

They say it's like a 12 to 24 hour job just to replace a water pump. I am inspecting this picture of the 3.5L and I can't tell which one is the water pump, but it being inside the engine really shows that if it fails and starts leaking, it'll just go into your oil and kill the engine... Ford built to break completely if all goes wrong. http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/08/zz7a5ad63a.jpg

EDIT: http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f57/ecoboost-engine-flaw-74380/

This forum tells of wheep holes or drainage holes but I wonder if that's true or not. I'm really concerned about my water pump failing now. Seeing how my friend's 2002 Golf just had a water pump failure, and warped the block with overheating.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Sorry to hear about this. With the turbo I4 and 3.5 V6 having issues, I am now looking at other manufactures SUV's to replace my 2012 Camry. This forum has changed my mind about the Explorer. These forums are a wealth of knowledge when making a decision such as this. I am glad to see Ford has a person on the forum trying to help solve issues but it sounds like corporate office wanted to send a message- the warranty stops at the mileage stated. Some states may have other laws dealing with suitability of a product for its intended purpose which may help.

Having a technical back ground I was interested in why this occurred. Water pumps are known to fail (has on every other vehicle I have owned) especially at high mileage by leaking through the shaft seal. If the pump is external to the engine, the shaft seal leaks, drips on the ground, you notice it and have it fixed.

Since the 3.5 engine is designed with the seal/pump inside the engine, the water will go into the oil and that will be the end of the engine.

I was considering the Turbo 4 but then I noticed the problem with carbon forming on the valves due to the direct injection system. This causes the engine to run rough. Only solution Ford has is head replacement. Ford says trying to clean on the valves on the engine can ruin the turbo.

The 4.5 engine in my 2005 Explorer was very well designed and durable. Ford was one of the first manufactures who took the water passages out of the intake manifold which is another cause of water leaking into the oil. I have seen many engines ruined due to water leaking internally. It is unfortunate they did not maintain this level of design integrity on the newer design.

So because there has been ONE explorer on here that has had a water pump failure out of all the hundreds of thousands of explorers out there, it all of a sudden is a horrible design and vehicle???

Now granted, I know the amount of people on here are a very small fraction but I'm sure that if this were to happen and someone was quoted a $7,000 repair, they sure as well would be searching online and would fine this forum to join and post.

 

[dcm0123]

So because there has been ONE explorer on here that has had a water pump failure out of all the hundreds of thousands of explorers out there, it all of a sudden is a horrible design and vehicle???

Now granted, I know the amount of people on here are a very small fraction but I'm sure that if this were to happen and someone was quoted a $7,000 repair, they sure as well would be searching online and would fine this forum to join and post.

People do not expect to pay $7000 as a result of a water pump failure. If Ford was that confident it was going to be a sole event, they should have paid for tlbig10's engine to avoid the bad press.

As the link 1995E posted shows, Chrysler put the water pump inside their 2.7L engine. This resulted in coolant leaking into the oil which damaged engines.

Only time will tell if Ford made the right decision. Since there are other vehicles I can consider, I am not willing to gamble $7000. I will wait a for a few more years of history to see if this is a good design before I buy a 3.5L.

 

[ocracokeBound]

I don't know, these engines have been around for a long time, including fleets that get lots of mileage. You would think if it was a chronic thing there would be more info out there on it. Just as a guess since it was a used vehicle my thoughts would be there was a serious overheat under the previous owner that damaged the heads. During the trip the head gasket failed and the engine imploded under the heat, making the destruction of the water pump a side effect rather than the root cause.

 

[Fla_15_XLT]

So because there has been ONE explorer on here that has had a water pump failure out of all the hundreds of thousands of explorers out there, it all of a sudden is a horrible design and vehicle???

Now granted, I know the amount of people on here are a very small fraction but I'm sure that if this were to happen and someone was quoted a $7,000 repair, they sure as well would be searching online and would fine this forum to join and post.

Water pump seals WILL fail on as the engines age and run up high miles. Particularly with 'quick-lube' type places that sell coolant changes to unsuspecting vehicle owners, and fill with the 'somewhat compatible' fluids. What was unusual about this case was the relatively low mileage that it failed - although, given the multiple owner history of the vehicle, it's quite possible that someone did a coolant change with 'green death'. Not unlike the ChryCo trannies - which died a rather messy death after a 'quick-lube' fluid change.

The way the engine is designed, the water pump is, pretty much by definition, a 'lifetime component' - when the seal and/or bearing fails, it'll take the rest of the engine with it. Now, could be that Ford put in very good quality pumps that are quite durable. That's cool - but the reality is that when it does fail, it will precipitate catastrophic engine failure. Not unlike some Honda engines that eat their valves when timing belt gets taken out by a water pump failure.

 

[ocracokeBound]

I am not sure about the "when the seal and/or bearing fails, it'll take the rest of the engine with it". I read the Edge forum posted earlier in this thread and the posters with the issues complained about the presence or smell of coolant as part of thier explanations. That leads be to believe the other posts that weep holes were created by the engineers to direct leaking coolant out of the engine.

 

[pup5581]

Sorry to hear about this. With the turbo I4 and 3.5 V6 having issues, I am now looking at other manufactures SUV's to replace my 2012 Camry. This forum has changed my mind about the Explorer. These forums are a wealth of knowledge when making a decision such as this. I am glad to see Ford has a person on the forum trying to help solve issues but it sounds like corporate office wanted to send a message- the warranty stops at the mileage stated. Some states may have other laws dealing with suitability of a product for its intended purpose which may help.

Whatever car company you go with..you are going to have issues..hate to break it to you. You see so many issues on the forum because when people do have problems..they come here for help..there are people out there with no issues at all and haven't voiced their opinions becasue they haven't needed the help

 

[dcm0123]

Lets see proof the weep holes exist.

I am not sure about the "when the seal and/or bearing fails, it'll take the rest of the engine with it". I read the Edge forum posted earlier in this thread and the posters with the issues complained about the presence or smell of coolant as part of their explanations. That leads be to believe the other posts that weep holes were created by the engineers to direct leaking coolant out of the engine.

A couple of people have mentioned weep holes but no one has shown proof they exist. How about one of the Ford Mechanics or Ford's representative on this forum confirm the hole exists in the 3.5L and provide pictures to prove it?

It is still very expensive to change the pump but much less than a $7000 engine.

 

[peterk9]

A couple of people have mentioned weep holes but no one has shown proof they exist. How about one of the Ford Mechanics or Ford's representative on this forum confirm the hole exists in the 3.5L and provide pictures to prove it?

It is still very expensive to change the pump but much less than a $7000 engine.

I can guarantee you that the Ford reps on this forum would have absolutely no knowledge of this. It isn't part of their job. They only serve as an interface between the customer and the regional customer service managers.

Peter

 

[ocracokeBound]

Here is a Taurus forum with a guy freaking out because it is going to cost a couple of grand to fix the bull's water pump that is pushing coolant out the weep holes
http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/115...n/253922-my-13-bull-has-leaky-water-pump.html
In this one a guy with a Lincoln MKX notices the coolant coming out the weep holes and attempts the repair himself.
http://www.fordedgeforum.com/topic/13134-bad-water-pump/

So plenty of people having problems with leaking coolant, but nobody complaining about contaminated oil. Not saying it can't happen, but I can easily picture engineering an outer seal then directing anything that passes the bearing back through the block and out the side like they are describing.

 

[dco43054]

Here is a Taurus forum with a guy freaking out because it is going to cost a couple of grand to fix the bull's water pump that is pushing coolant out the weep holes
http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/115...n/253922-my-13-bull-has-leaky-water-pump.html
In this one a guy with a Lincoln MKX notices the coolant coming out the weep holes and attempts the repair himself.
http://www.fordedgeforum.com/topic/13134-bad-water-pump/

So plenty of people having problems with leaking coolant, but nobody complaining about contaminated oil. Not saying it can't happen, but I can easily picture engineering an outer seal then directing anything that passes the bearing back through the block and out the side like they are describing.

The Edge forum reference is to a 2007. At least the Taurus is for a 2013, with 89,000 miles. In that one, there is a post that says a Ford mechanic in a dealership there hadn't seen any failures at their dealership.

There have not been a large number of reports on this forum of water pump failures. But like any other moving part, at some point they will fail. With older cars that require more frequent cam belt replacements, standard procedure is to change the water pump when changing the belts or chains. Would seem to be a good practice for the Explorer as well, especially with as involved as changing those parts are.

In the mean time, I will hope and pray that mine doesn't fail.

 

[ocracokeBound]

Yup, 2007 was when it was introduced to the Lincoln line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine. Personally I hated having to have the 60K belt replacements in my old Mazdas, seemed like each one of them was north of $500 even back then. So yeah, the waterpump could break in one of these and it will set you back a couple of grand to fix. But I would think that is a pretty rare occurrence. Now if you have a new generation Ex I would hope and pray more about the rear brakes as they have been show conclusively problematic with corrosion locking them up. I touch my rear wheels every few days just to make sure they are not heating up from the pads dragging.

 

[Tech By Trade]

This is the only place on earth I have ever read this comment "The 4.0 engine in my 2005 Explorer was very well designed and durable." I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that one.

 

[bigdude2468]

Good God, the Ex have timing chains so there is no timing belt replacement like you see with the imports. Also someone mention a water pump failure that took out valves. NO, the timing belt fails and in zero clearance engines that takes out the engine, not the water pump. Like I previously mentioned the water pump being driven internally by the timing chain more than likely removes much of the torque, and tension on the water pump bearings / seals.

 

[sheltonfilms]

A couple of people have mentioned weep holes but no one has shown proof they exist. How about one of the Ford Mechanics or Ford's representative on this forum confirm the hole exists in the 3.5L and provide pictures to prove it?

It is still very expensive to change the pump but much less than a $7000 engine.

I googled the water pump and it is a double "o-ring" design. If the first seal fails then coolant gets trapped between the two o-rings. There is a channel in between the two to divert the fluid away from the engine and out the side (front of the vehicle) behind the alternator.

A sign of potential failure is coolant dripping down the engine or loss of coolant. As long as you periodically check coolant level and signs of coolant in your driveway/garage, you should be able to catch it.

I bet what happened in the OP's case was that the 1st seal failed and the 2nd was potentially installed wrong or non-existent. I still believe that signs should have appeared before total failure because the coolant slowly drips out.

Should have been caught in oil changes or seen in the degas bottle.

If I was/were the mechanic I would have checked how the o-rings looked/what position they were in. Also, would have tested to see if the correct coolant was used (Ford has test strips).

If that 2nd seal was never there then the OP would have a decent case of having Ford fix the issue.

The only thing that can help the OP now is for multiple failures of these vehicles to occur to the point where Ford issues an extended-warranty. This would allow the OP to have Ford compensate them for the repairs that have occurred prior to the warranty being extended.

Ford did a 7 year/unlimited mile warranty on the 1996-2001ish mustang intake manifolds due to the coolant cross over cracking and leaking antifreeze. If you replaced the manifold at your expense then Ford gave you a check for the cost of the repairs.

What to learn from this:
Check your oil when doing oil changes (why I like doing them myself).
Check your oil levels every 2 weeks (some people check every week) if the level rises this could be a sign.
Check for discoloration of the coolant in the dagas bottle.


If you are really concerned get a coolant pressure tester from Harbor Freight and check for pressure loss every two weeks.


I'm thinking it maybe a good idea to just replace the pump at 150k miles when it is due for a coolant flush as a preventative maintenance item (if your the type like me that drive vehicles till the wheels fall off, then put them back on and keep driving).

 

[dcm0123]

Discolored coolant

I am not sure you would see discolored coolant in the bottle from this type of leak.

I had bad head gaskets on another vehicle which resulted in carbon contaminating the cooling system and bottle. This happens because the compression in the cylinder is a lot higher than the coolant pressure so the combustion by products enter the cooling system.

Since the pressure in the engine cavity (in front of the pump) is much lower than the coolant pressure, it is doubtful if oil will enter the coolant and discolor it.

 

[sheltonfilms]

I am not sure you would see discolored coolant in the bottle from this type of leak.

I had bad head gaskets on another vehicle which resulted in carbon contaminating the cooling system and bottle. This happens because the compression in the cylinder is a lot higher than the coolant pressure so the combustion by products enter the cooling system.

Since the pressure in the engine cavity (in front of the pump) is much lower than the coolant pressure, it is doubtful if oil will enter the coolant and discolor it.

You're right. Brain signals got messed up and crossed head gasket leak with this issue.

Just thought mixing oil/coolant and evidently brain went to "oil in coolant bottle"

 

[JE]

What to learn from this:
Check your oil when doing oil changes (why I like doing them myself).
Check your oil levels every 2 weeks (some people check every week) if the level rises this could be a sign.
Check for discoloration of the coolant in the dagas bottle.

Good advice, but I would add "If you want Ford to cover your repairs past the factory warranty, purchase an extended warranty."

The topic of extended warranties has been done to death in other threads, and I don't always think they're the best plan, but if you're risk-adverse or expect that you may have problems coming (or if you bought a used vehicle and don't know how it was maintained) it might be the right fit!