2004 Explorer P0734 P0735 P0775 P0795 + parasitic battery drain

[derfderf]

The above transpired after a boatload of mostly unnecessary mechanical repairs perpetrated by an independent shop under the guise of being "required" repairs in order to pass PA State Inspection.

None of these repairs involved the transmission.

[EDIT] Ran fine for 1 week, then began overheating, Took back to same shop.

Replaced:
Thermostat, Thermostat seal, Thermostat Housing

A few days later, owner repeatedly waking up to a dead battery every day. [\EDIT] Car can be jump-started, but shifts hard and now MIL is on. May be other lights on; I have not yet seen the vehicle.
-----------------------
Stored codes are
P0734 Gear 4 (4GR) Incorrect Gear Ratio)
P0735 Gear 5 (5GR) Incorrect Gear Ratio)
P0775 Pressure Control Solenoid "B"
P0795 Pressure Control Solenoid "C"
---------------------
Attempts were made to find the source of the parasitic drain via fuse pulling but those efforts were unsuccessful.

Someone suggested security system might be causing no-start condition. New key cut at dealer. No change.
----------------
Battery was changed to ensure it was not the cause of the no-start.
No change in behavior.
----------
ALL of this information was relayed to me; I am walking into this as a favor. I have not even seen the vehicle yet.
--------
Transmission (5R55S) was rebuilt in 2012; reasons yet unknown, mileage yet unknown.
-------
Electrical
I suspect the Zener diode on the output of the alternator has broken down and the battery V current is flowing back through the alt to ground overnight, enough to droop the battery such that it cannot start the vehicle. I've instructed the owner to go to Autozone or similar and request a free complete charging system test to see if it picks up an alternator issue.

[EDIT] There is also the much simpler explanation that there is a defective switch that is not turning off a light as it should (glovebox) and that is draining the battery, but I would have thought that would have been uncovered in the fuse pulling exercise. [\EDIT]
--------
Codes
I have seen certain combinations of codes thrown on Saturns (I am a mod on a Saturn forum) that point to A but as a group indicate B, or in some cases point to C which seemingly has nothing to do with the codes that were thrown.

Trannys are by far my weak suit, so your patience is appreciated.

 

[imp]

The above transpired after a boatload of mostly unnecessary mechanical repairs perpetrated by an independent shop under the guise of being "required" repairs in order to pass PA State Inspection.

None of these repairs involved the transmission.

[EDIT] Ran fine for 1 week, then began overheating, Took back to same shop.

Replaced:
Thermostat, Thermostat seal, Thermostat Housing

A few days later, owner repeatedly waking up to a dead battery every day. [\EDIT] Car can be jump-started, but shifts hard and now MIL is on. May be other lights on; I have not yet seen the vehicle.
-----------------------
Stored codes are
P0734 Gear 4 (4GR) Incorrect Gear Ratio)
P0735 Gear 5 (5GR) Incorrect Gear Ratio)
P0775 Pressure Control Solenoid "B"
P0795 Pressure Control Solenoid "C"
---------------------
Attempts were made to find the source of the parasitic drain via fuse pulling but those efforts were unsuccessful.

Someone suggested security system might be causing no-start condition. New key cut at dealer. No change.
----------------
Battery was changed to ensure it was not the cause of the no-start.
No change in behavior.
----------
ALL of this information was relayed to me; I am walking into this as a favor. I have not even seen the vehicle yet.
--------
Transmission (5R55S) was rebuilt in 2012; reasons yet unknown, mileage yet unknown.
-------
Electrical
I suspect the Zener diode on the output of the alternator has broken down and the battery V current is flowing back through the alt to ground overnight, enough to droop the battery such that it cannot start the vehicle. I've instructed the owner to go to Autozone or similar and request a free complete charging system test to see if it picks up an alternator issue.

[EDIT] There is also the much simpler explanation that there is a defective switch that is not turning off a light as it should (glovebox) and that is draining the battery, but I would have thought that would have been uncovered in the fuse pulling exercise. [\EDIT]
--------
Codes
I have seen certain combinations of codes thrown on Saturns (I am a mod on a Saturn forum) that point to A but as a group indicate B, or in some cases point to C which seemingly has nothing to do with the codes that were thrown.

Trannys are by far my weak suit, so your patience is appreciated.

The transmission codes all could be thrown due to low fluid, IMO. Bad (leaky) diodes in an alternator ought to be a snap for you to isolate: you know what you're talking about. I'd measure the parasitic drain first. Transmission issues are irrelevant if the G.D. battery is going dead, right?

Since the information is 2nd. hand to you, it's accuracy is perhaps absent. Could the unnecessary repairs have introduced new issues? Sorry I can't offer more. imp

 

[derfderf]

Thanks for the quick reply, imp.

Electrical

Wondering how a thermostat replacement could cause an electrical issue, I searched the site (what?! a search before re-asking a question??) and found mixwhit's writeup on replacing Tstat and housing(s) on the 4.0 V6's.

In the guide, he stresses removing the neg batt cable at the battery.
Also, to make more room for the job at hand, he disconnects what appears to be the negative (ground wire) from the alternator AT the alternator.

This second step is of no consequence if the battery is already disconnected,

However, if the batt is still connected when you do this, might you not damage the alt by doing so since the pos batt lead is still connected and you are likely chattering the circuit while removing the bolt (connected/disconnected etc) causing reversals in electric fields it is not designed for.

Yes I am stretching for an "alternator got hosed" mechanism and this is all speculation but it is all I am coming up with for now.

Transmission
I also came across a post where someone was having shifting issues and it was remedied by noticing 1/2 of their coolant was missing, presumably not providing enough thermal transfer to sufficiently cool both the engine and the tranny fluid in the lower tranny cooler compartment.

If the repair shop did not properly refill their cooling system post thermostat episode, might this not also be a possibility?

It was only AFTER the t-stat fix that the transmission codes popped up.

Read up on the wonderful dipstickless 5R55S transmission. I do not have a lift but do have an honest local mechanic I trust. Don't know when the last pan drop and fill was done since the 2012 rebuild nor how many miles have passed since then.

So I will definitely follow up on the tranny fluid level possibility.
============
As you folks get to know me, you'll find me to be an overly verbose dude who thinks in 5 directions at once, 2 of which may be relevant and 3 which are way out there.

PLEASE tell me when I'm being clueless---it's the only way I learn. I am super fine with constructive criticism, so don't hold back on the new guy.

Prefer all shots taken to be above the beltline

 

[imp]

@derfderf Awright Derf! I like the next line after follow-up on fluid level BEST! Going back to the coolant spraying all over in the link, now we got the possibility of liquid-soaked connectors, yeah they're pretty waterproof, but nah, hot liquid can get into them, rubber seal the conductors pass through sometimes develop cracks; liquid goes through crack by capillary action, wouldn't take much, and if it happened to affect pressure control solenoids, as the codes show, the stage is set for clutch and band apply too harsh, or too loose, either of which makes the shaft speed ratios being watch-dogged out of accepted range. So ya got "incorrect gear ratio", which simply means, usually, slippage in the box.

"If the repair shop did not properly refill their cooling system post thermostat episode, might this not also be a possibility?" I don't think so. Why? The actual fluid temp in the trans. is not likely to cause erratic clutch/band operation, is it? After all, two things come to mind: The first automatics I worked on in the 1950s had NO liquid cooling at all. They were air-cooled, by big fins on the outside of the torque converter which drew air in through a big duct cast in the housing, and blew the air out another. Second, Dudley tows his heavy boat all over the mountains, till his fluid is cooked black, and the trans. kept working awfully long. That's why I don't think so.

Now, the alternator. There ain't no ground wire attached to the alternator, Derf. Two types were used in 2004, unless I'm wrong in assuming we are discussing a 2004, and your signature line MAYBE only means YOURS is an '04, but I expect all 3rd. Gens. are similar, so I'll go on. Early Build had 3 conductors at the alternator, "B+", "A", and "I". "B+" goes to the battery through a 12 gauge fusible link. "A" goes through two fusible links in series, 18 gauge and 12 gauge, to the bus in the Battery Junction Box, "I" goes to the PCM, terminal #24, connector 175b, the bottom one of the three. No ground conductor, alternator grounded internally, current flow leaves it through the mounting brackets. LATE BUILD had TWO "S" (Stator) terminals; they were tied together by an external jumper. "B+" same as EARLY. "A" same as Early. "I" same as Early. No external ground conductor.
"you are likely chattering the circuit while removing the bolt (connected/disconnected etc)" Interesting thought, yes, but there is virtually no current flowing through the alternator when either the battery negative or positive cable is disconnected. The diodes prevent "back current" flow when alternator is silent. "Chattering" a connection can only have an effect if current is flowing through it. In the case of the battery being disconnected, the current interrupted is quite small, and consists of various "keep alives" for all the damned memories and **** they got in them now.

I'm going with the wet connections idea. Fixing it is another ball of wax. No one is being "clueless" when asking questions or for opinions,. Derf! AND, no one talks more than he should than the old IMP!

 

[derfderf]

Sorry for the delay in responding, IMP.

Thanks again for the response

OK -- I've officially rammed most of my leg through my small intestine through my mouth discussing alternator ground wires.!!

In my mind I was thinking of the chattering you experience when connecting disconnecting the BATTERY NEG Terminal. How the alternator grew a chattering ground lead I don't know, but besides suggesting this is a positive ground vehicle like the early 60's, I'm not sure I can get much lower in terms of apparent basic cluelessness.

I know pretty much zilch about auto trannys. I know there are solenoids and valve bodies and clutch packs and bands, input shaft nuts input and output shafts, a pan, screen maybe a filter, and 6 million little passages that need to stay clear of debris for proper operation. I believe the shifts are based on reaching a certain line pressure.

Flying blind otherwise.

I don't know how sensitive today's trannys are to temperature. Everyone is always warning you to "check for that burned smell" in the fluid, so I assumed cooling was pretty vital, and since I've never actually seen a cutaway of the bottom of a rad, I don't know the fluid path of the tranny fluid through what I assume is a partially filled bottom tank of the radiator which is filled with coolant. I resisted the urge to look on wikipedia b c I find it much easier to learn from specific examples in which I have a vested interest. If temp control is not an issue, then let's check it off the list.

w/r/t possible coolant sprayage on under the hood connectors, where do I find the connectors to the pressure control solenoids on the vehicle? Or is there a good diagram on the forum you can point me to so that I won't have to ask 489 similarly annoying questions?

I still am yet to meet the vehicle in person -- busy family weekend.

Also is this a CANbus vehicle or old style flavor of OBDII? I'll need to be able to clear the codes to test of course, and driving 15 mi to AutoBlows is not my idea of productive use of time.

Probably be a delay till my next response as I do not know when this week I will meet the owners and the vehicle.
---------------------------
"Why is he doing this for people he's never met on a vehicle he is unfamiliar with, ESP when it comes to trannys?" you might ask.......they are neighbors in my neighborhood, they seem genuinely nice on the neighborhood forum, I like to help people, and I like to LEARN new things.
--------------------------
Like the EGR setup on a 2000 Rav 4 is just plain strange. You only figure out what they did when you troubleshoot it and then just ask "why?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@derfderf Awright Derf! I like the next line after follow-up on fluid level BEST! Going back to the coolant spraying all over in the link, now we got the possibility of liquid-soaked connectors, yeah they're pretty waterproof, but nah, hot liquid can get into them, rubber seal the conductors pass through sometimes develop cracks; liquid goes through crack by capillary action, wouldn't take much, and if it happened to affect pressure control solenoids, as the codes show, the stage is set for clutch and band apply too harsh, or too loose, either of which makes the shaft speed ratios being watch-dogged out of accepted range. So ya got "incorrect gear ratio", which simply means, usually, slippage in the box.

"If the repair shop did not properly refill their cooling system post thermostat episode, might this not also be a possibility?" I don't think so. Why? The actual fluid temp in the trans. is not likely to cause erratic clutch/band operation, is it? After all, two things come to mind: The first automatics I worked on in the 1950s had NO liquid cooling at all. They were air-cooled, by big fins on the outside of the torque converter which drew air in through a big duct cast in the housing, and blew the air out another. Second, Dudley tows his heavy boat all over the mountains, till his fluid is cooked black, and the trans. kept working awfully long. That's why I don't think so.

Now, the alternator. There ain't no ground wire attached to the alternator, Derf. Two types were used in 2004, unless I'm wrong in assuming we are discussing a 2004, and your signature line MAYBE only means YOURS is an '04, but I expect all 3rd. Gens. are similar, so I'll go on. Early Build had 3 conductors at the alternator, "B+", "A", and "I". "B+" goes to the battery through a 12 gauge fusible link. "A" goes through two fusible links in series, 18 gauge and 12 gauge, to the bus in the Battery Junction Box, "I" goes to the PCM, terminal #24, connector 175b, the bottom one of the three. No ground conductor, alternator grounded internally, current flow leaves it through the mounting brackets. LATE BUILD had TWO "S" (Stator) terminals; they were tied together by an external jumper. "B+" same as EARLY. "A" same as Early. "I" same as Early. No external ground conductor.
"you are likely chattering the circuit while removing the bolt (connected/disconnected etc)" Interesting thought, yes, but there is virtually no current flowing through the alternator when either the battery negative or positive cable is disconnected. The diodes prevent "back current" flow when alternator is silent. "Chattering" a connection can only have an effect if current is flowing through it. In the case of the battery being disconnected, the current interrupted is quite small, and consists of various "keep alives" for all the damned memories and **** they got in them now.

I'm going with the wet connections idea. Fixing it is another ball of wax. No one is being "clueless" when asking questions or for opinions,. Derf! AND, no one talks more than he should than the old IMP!

 

[derfderf]

ok, finally met the patient this evening.

No visual indication or smell of coolant,

Alt failed charging system load test with "open diode" (unspecified), had 400mV ripple, but output still at 14.4 volts.
I surmise from staring at some Ford alternator internal wiring diagrams that for this to be the case, you can't have 14.4V at the output if one of the rectifier diodes is open, so my working theory is that one of the diodes in the diode trio burned up.

That being said, i asked the owner what happened to get to this point (fully charged battery goes dead overnight, harsh shifts and above mentioned tranny codes).

1) Issue with then current 7 yr old battery -- went dead. Jumped it, let it run 20 min, turned off.
2) Next morning, battery dead. Replaced battery w brand new one. Vehicle started right up.
3) Next morning, new battery dead. Not only that, could not jump start. Got 1 crank on attempt 1, 1 crank on attempt 2, then all went silent. Sounds like security system issue to me but I don't know Ford's setup so I'd appreciate the enlightenment.
4) Car towed to Ford dealership to make new chip key, which successfully started vehicle. I'm thinking they reset security without telling anyone, then used his old key together with the new one (I assume Ford chip keys are "learn" keys) to have the second key program itself to the car. That is the only reason I can think of that it would have to have been towed to the dealership. And the critical factor that the owners are not car techies and therefore did not know they were being hosed.

Could someone please reply with a link to the Ford Security System reset protocol that I can perform it myself in my driveway instead of $150 for diag, clear security, THEN add on cost of tow.

The new key started the vehicle...........miraculously, the original one works just fine again.....hmmmmmmmm

5) Next, Switched old battery back in to avoid abuse on new one.
6) Began pulling fuses and relays one at a time in an attempt to find the drain on the battery, inside and out. Could not find the circuit causing the drain.

I assume this is related to the fact that the inline fuseable link between B+ and the alt is still hot, so there is still that path for current flow.

******It was not until AFTER the thermostat replacement that the battery (well starting / charging system) issues began**** (that alternator is pretty close to the thermostat I do believe....hope no coolant got in the alt)

####### It was not until all the fuses and relays were all back in place that the tranny codes showed up and the vehicle intermittently started shifting harshly. ##########
_______________________________________________
OK, master theory time (you'll get to love me for these)

1) Coolant likely spilled in alt, killing one of diode trio OR old batt had very marginal cell not wanting to do its job, causing V reg in alt to go put alt into full output mode, which burned out the diode in the diode trio.

2) Alt output at 66% of max, and probably charging batt fully b/c if it could not supply enough current to the battery to keep it charged, it would start to pull down the output V, which is not happening

3) Current output of the alt may or may not be sufficient to run all of the computerized modules properly, but again, no drawdown observed in output V

4) Pulling all the fuses one at a time erased the learned history in the TCM (transmission control module) (I'm assuming the 04 had that technology) so now the tranny does not know where the shift points are supposed to be (yet)

5) It 4 is correct, is there a something that needs to be done to re-initialize the TCM or kick it into relearn mode? I know typically ya drive it until it stops fighting w you, but again, I do not know Fords

QUESTION: Will the currently set codes throw the tranny into default shift point or limp mode?
I have only today finally obtained my very own scanner/real time tool that handles CANbus, which per the net, this vehicle is. My wife drives a '14 Escape so I will need it down the road.
-----------------------

OK, enough pontificating....here's what I did tonight

a) Vehicle had just been driven home 1 hour prior, and the neg batt terminal immediately d/c to avoid drain.
b) V batt = 12,64 V DC as found. Almost brand new battery (3 wks).
c)) Disconn battery pos lead.
d) Disconn Alt to Battery pos feed at alternator.
Reconnected battery.

Theory of test being that if battery does NOT drain overnight, then the current drain is NOT through any of the other circuits in the vehicle. I removed only 1 device from the battery feed -- the alternator.
If that turns out as expected, I will reconnect alt (with batt disconn), leave overnight. If batt drains, pretty much condemns alternator as current drain.

Be back in a few days. All comments welcome at any time. If I'm wrong, I like to know it as soon as possible so I can stop wasting everyone's time including my own.

Thanks

Derf

 

[derfderf]

ok, finally met the patient this evening.

No visual indication or smell of coolant,

Alt failed charging system load test with "open diode" (unspecified), had 400mV ripple, but output still at 14.4 volts.
I surmise from staring at some Ford alternator internal wiring diagrams that for this to be the case, you can't have 14.4V at the output if one of the rectifier diodes is open, so my working theory is that one of the diodes in the diode trio burned up.

That being said, i asked the owner what happened to get to this point (fully charged battery goes dead overnight, harsh shifts and above mentioned tranny codes).

1) Issue with then current 7 yr old battery -- went dead. Jumped it, let it run 20 min, turned off.
2) Next morning, battery dead. Replaced battery w brand new one. Vehicle started right up.
3) Next morning, new battery dead. Not only that, could not jump start. Got 1 crank on attempt 1, 1 crank on attempt 2, then all went silent. Sounds like security system issue to me but I don't know Ford's setup so I'd appreciate the enlightenment.
4) Car towed to Ford dealership to make new chip key, which successfully started vehicle. I'm thinking they reset security without telling anyone, then used his old key together with the new one (I assume Ford chip keys are "learn" keys) to have the second key program itself to the car. That is the only reason I can think of that it would have to have been towed to the dealership. And the critical factor that the owners are not car techies and therefore did not know they were being hosed.

Could someone please reply with a link to the Ford Security System reset protocol that I can perform it myself in my driveway instead of $150 for diag, clear security, THEN add on cost of tow.

The new key started the vehicle...........miraculously, the original one works just fine again.....hmmmmmmmm

5) Next, Switched old battery back in to avoid abuse on new one.
6) Began pulling fuses and relays one at a time in an attempt to find the drain on the battery, inside and out. Could not find the circuit causing the drain.

I assume this is related to the fact that the inline fuseable link between B+ and the alt is still hot, so there is still that path for current flow.

******It was not until AFTER the thermostat replacement that the battery (well starting / charging system) issues began**** (that alternator is pretty close to the thermostat I do believe....hope no coolant got in the alt)

####### It was not until all the fuses and relays were all back in place that the tranny codes showed up and the vehicle intermittently started shifting harshly. ##########
_______________________________________________
OK, master theory time (you'll get to love me for these)

1) Coolant likely spilled in alt, killing one of diode trio OR old batt had very marginal cell not wanting to do its job, causing V reg in alt to go put alt into full output mode, which burned out the diode in the diode trio.

2) Alt output at 66% of max, and probably charging batt fully b/c if it could not supply enough current to the battery to keep it charged, it would start to pull down the output V, which is not happening

3) Current output of the alt may or may not be sufficient to run all of the computerized modules properly, but again, no drawdown observed in output V

4) Pulling all the fuses one at a time erased the learned history in the TCM (transmission control module) (I'm assuming the 04 had that technology) so now the tranny does not know where the shift points are supposed to be (yet)

5) It 4 is correct, is there a something that needs to be done to re-initialize the TCM or kick it into relearn mode? I know typically ya drive it until it stops fighting w you, but again, I do not know Fords

QUESTION: Will the currently set codes throw the tranny into default shift point or limp mode?
I have only today finally obtained my very own scanner/real time tool that handles CANbus, which per the net, this vehicle is. My wife drives a '14 Escape so I will need it down the road.
-----------------------

OK, enough pontificating....here's what I did tonight

a) Vehicle had just been driven home 1 hour prior, and the neg batt terminal immediately d/c to avoid drain.
b) V batt = 12,64 V DC as found. Almost brand new battery (3 wks).
c)) Disconn battery pos lead.
d) Disconn Alt to Battery pos feed at alternator.
Reconnected battery.

Theory of test being that if battery does NOT drain overnight, then the current drain is NOT through any of the other circuits in the vehicle. I removed only 1 device from the battery feed -- the alternator.
If that turns out as expected, I will reconnect alt (with batt disconn), leave overnight. If batt drains, pretty much condemns alternator as current drain.

Be back in a few days. All comments welcome at any time. If I'm wrong, I like to know it as soon as possible so I can stop wasting everyone's time including my own.

Thanks

Derf

Well, with the alt reattached and left overnight, the battery drained to about 11.3V, thus explaining the "dead battery every morning" issue. Alternator deemed defective and source of battery drain.
Interestingly, after jump starting the vehicle, and letting it run for a few minutes, the output of the alternator had dropped to 13.5V (approx); I assume one of the rectifier diodes bit the dust. I went to double check the reading about 5 min later as we were letting the battery charge and read 12.9V (approx). The diodes were disintegrating in front of us.

I wanted to feel the harsh shifting of the tranny so we took a quick 5 min drive, including the Interstate. I was trying to see if the shifting would regenerate the DTCs. I know most take 3 trips to set, but I thought multiple harsh shifts in a single trip might work as well.

The vehicle has a 1/2 to 1 second delay before slamming into reverse. Also, the harsh shifts are what I would describe as shift flares ---very slight -- but there. Typical of the shift flares the 5R55S (I think that's what's in there-- it's a 4.0 V6) is loved for.

So I think either the TCM was thoroughly confused when all the fuses and relays were put back in, and the very hard 2-3 and 3-4 shifting and threw the 3rd and 4th gear incorrect ratios, OR the system voltage was fluctuating and the codes were spurious.

Alternator being pulled for rebuild (professional) and battery getting a proper charge on a charger.....

 

[derfderf]

Heya folks.
At the risk of straying off topic (a selfthreadjackofsorts):
While waiting for the alternator to be rebuilt and the battery fully charged, I did some background reading on alternators and the overall charging systems of today. "Smart Charging Systems" are constantly monitoring the vehicle's demand for current as well as keeping the battery V topped off so that it can obtain a resting V of about 12.6V.

I also learned that in the 2013+ and up Escapes, there is a Battery Monitoring System (BMS) which monitors everything from time in service, battery V vs RPM, resting V, etc and uses some algorithm to supposedly determine battery health.

Not sure if that works, but I bring it up only because when you change the battery (on the 2013+ Escapes, anyway), you need to do a BSM reset or the car's computer will supposedly treat it as the old one until enough data is collected to be representative of the new battery.

Question: is there a Smart Charging system in the Explorers that requires a BSM reset, and if so, when did it first get implemented---is this an issue with the 2004 EXPLORER in question?

 

[derfderf]

Alt rebuilt.
Battery recharged.

Installed in vehicle.
Put out 14.3V

Ran it for 5 minutes. Charging voltage slowly dropped to 13.6V where it seemed to settle in.
Turned off for the night.

Next morning -- 12.9V prior to cranking. Started right up, charging voltage increased.

All seems well in the electrical category.

To answer my own question: This vehicle DOES seem to have a "Smart Charging System", as do even older Fords (some) let alone older Explorers.

Don't mind mining the internet, like everyone else, but could not find the answer there.
I found it disappointing that no Explorer owners would answer what turns out to be a simple question, when there are other threads on the site discussing battery charging issues.

Outstanding Question: Once a battery is replaced on an 04 Explorer, is there a BSM reset equivalent to the newer Escapes (13 and up) that require a scan tool to reset the BSM (age =0, collected data cleared)?

(Yes I did search the site for it, but by page 3 of the results the hits were for the TPMS.)

 

[derfderf]

Bumpity Bump Bump....

I really need the answer to the battery reset question.
Does anyone have Factory Service Manuals (FSMs) for the 2005 Explorer?
If not, could you please point me in the right direction regarding finding the answer?

Thanks

Derf