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4.0 Remote Turbo Buildup

You turbo guys probably already know this but check it out anyways....

I got this from http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/turbo_size3.php

Turbochargers 101
This article is intended to help understand the selection of a turbocharger for your car. Whether you plan to change a normally aspirated, NA, car to turbocharged or to change, upgrade the factory turbo to a bigger unit. The article assumes you have a basic automotive knowledge.

To properly size a turbo for your vehicle you need to determine the airflow requirements of the engine. The best way to determine the engine's airflow is to measure it. Unfortunately most people do not have the ability to measure it. Therefore we do the next best thing and calculate it based on estimates. This article is not a lesson in math and therefore we'll refer to using the Auto Math calculators on this site to do the work for us. SMOKEmUP has written a neat turbo calculator which will allow you to enter information about your engine. Based on these inputs the calculator will output approximate airflow requirements of your engine. Using these airflow requirements we can then take this and plot it on turbo maps to help determine the correct compressor map for your application. So lets get started.

Understanding the turbocharger compressor map. The left side of the map has a line called the surge limit line. If the compressor operates in this region the compressor becomes unstable and turbo failure may result. The two axis of the compressor map are typically pressure ratio and air flow in lbs/min. These correlate to the engines pressure ratio (how much boost you're running) and the airflow requirements of the engine, we'll let the calculator do the math for us and figure this out as explained below. The center of the map has ovals or islands as they are commonly referred too. The islands have numbers associated to them which is the efficiency of the compressor in this area. The center island is the most efficient and each outer ring has a slightly less efficiency. The goal is to place the engine's most desired RPM range in the most efficient part of the map. Typically you try to place the air flow demands so the peak RPM is at least 65% and the peak torque falls on the most efficient part of the map. This is easier said than done.

First things first we're using SMOKEmUP's Turbo Calculator. The left side of the page contains the inputs for your engine.

Engine Displacement - Engine displacement is entered in cubic inches. This is the size of your engine. If you do know the displacement you can calculate it here. For our example we'll use 122.
Engine Type - The options are two stroke, four stroke, or rotary. Most street engines are four stroke. For our example we'll use 4 stroke.
Volumetric Efficiency (%) - This number is very critical for accurate results. The bad part is most people do not know the VE of the engine without measuring it. If your engine has been on the engine dyno you'll know exactly what the VE is. Otherwise we'll use estimates. Most stock engines have VE's between 80 - 85 %. Race engines can exceed 100%. For our example we'll assume the VE is 90%.
Boost Low Octane (PSI) - Enter the boost level you plan to run on low octane gas. For our example we'll use 14psi.
Boost High Octane (PSI) - Enter the boost level you plan to run on race gas. For our example we'll use 24 psi.
Compressor Efficiency (%) - Enter the compressor efficiency from the turbo map you select. For our example we'll use 74%.
Number of Turbo's - Enter the number of turbos you plan to run. For our example we'll use single turbo.
Intercooler Efficiency (%) - Enter the intercooler efficiency. Again the best method to obtain this number is to measure and calculate it. For our example we'll use 70%.
Air Temp (°F) - Enter the intake air temperature. For our example we'll use 77 °F.
Air Fuel Ratio - Enter the desired Air Fuel ratio. This is used to aid in sizing your fuel system. For our example we'll use 11.5.

The inputs for our example are similiar to the motors used in the Mitsubishi Ecplise, and Eagle Talon. Once we enter our information in we press the calculate button and the computer does the work in calculating the engines airflow requirements, much easier than by hand. The output from the calculator looks like below.

Low Boost Results:
Pressure Ratio 1.95
Compressor Heat Added Ideal (° F) 111.88
Compressor Heat Added Actual (° F) 151.18
Compressor Inlet Air Temp (° F) 77
Compressor Outlet Air Temp (° F) 228.18
Intercooler Inlet Air Temp (° F) 228.18
Intercooler Outlet Air Temp (° F) 122.36
Density Ratio 1.8
Low Boost
RPM Total CFM Total lb/min 11.5:1 A/F
gal/hr 11.5:1 A/F
lt/hr
1000 57.2 4.24 3.69 13.97
2000 114.39 8.48 7.38 27.93
3000 171.59 12.72 11.06 41.86
4000 228.78 16.96 14.75 55.83
5000 285.98 21.2 18.44 69.8
6000 343.17 25.45 22.13 83.76
7000 400.37 29.69 25.81 97.69
8000 457.56 33.93 29.5 111.66
High Boost Results:
Pressure Ratio 2.63
Compressor Heat Added Ideal (° F) 169.13
Compressor Heat Added Actual (° F) 228.56
Compressor Inlet Air Temp (° F) 77
Compressor Outlet Air Temp (° F) 305.56
Intercooler Inlet Air Temp (° F) 305.56
Intercooler Outlet Air Temp (° F) 145.57
Density Ratio 2.33
High Boost
RPM Total CFM Total lb/min 11.5:1 A/F
gal/hr 11.5:1 A/F
lt/hr
1000 74.17 5.5 4.78 18.09
2000 148.33 11 9.56 36.18
3000 222.5 16.5 14.35 54.31
4000 296.66 22 19.13 72.41
5000 370.83 27.5 23.91 90.5
6000 445 33 28.69 108.59
7000 519.16 38.5 33.47 126.68
8000 593.33 43.99 38.26 144.81


What the calculator did for us is based on the input parameters it calculated the engines airflow requirements. Now we can take this information and select different turbo chargers to plot this information on. Again we don't want to print out a bunch of turbo maps and try to figure out where these points are on the turbo map so we let the calculator do the work for us. SMOKEmUP has a list of over 40 different turbo's you can choose. Simply select which two turbos you want to compare and press plot. The computer will plot the calculated information on the maps for you.

Since this example is based on the Mitsubishi engine we selected two turbo's. The stock 14B turbo and a Garrett T04B V1/V2. Below is the ouput from the calculator on these two compressor maps.




Ok...Now what? What you have is a plot of the engine's peak airflow requirements plotted on the turbo maps you selected. Let's look more closely at the turbo's we selected. The compressor map on the left is for the 14B turbo which comes stock on the car. The line in red is the engines airflow requirements for the engine running at the low boost level. The 1K, 2K .... through 8K points are the engine airflow at each 1000 rpm increment. You can see that at approximately 6500 rpm the airflow requirements are off the map. Now looking at the high boost plot, in blue, you'll notice the engine is off the map at approximately 6000 rpm. Also notice that the plot shows the turbo is performing outside of the peak efficiency of the turbo. In general Mitsubishi did a good job in sizing this turbo for the application.


So your friend has this big Garrett turbo that he'll sell to you for cheap money and it supports making much more power than your wimpy 14B turbo. So you buy the turbo get all the parts to swap for the Garrett conversion. You take the car for a ride and it's a dog below 5500 rpm. Let's see why. Now looking at the Garrett turbo map you'll see that the engine at 4K rpm is below the surge line on the map (not good). Since most of the usable power band is below the surge line this turbo is not a good choice for your vehicle.

Summary:
The goal of selecting a turbo is to select a turbo where the most amount of usable RPM band for the engine falls on the most efficient part of the turbo map.
 


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jah81592

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Turbo size

I am running a modified 60-1(TO4E)!:burnout:
 




jah81592

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Oops! Sorry. Oh well.. I gave out my information anyway.
 




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carlover

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Good thread for those who might not quite get how to size a turbo with the engine they have. Ive been turbocharging imports for years and find it simply amazing what some people do just because they think "bigger is better". In an all out race motor for drag race applications a very large turbo is needed. In most cases they use nitrous to help the motor spool the turbo faster to make the power faster. But ive seen guys use ridiculously large turbos on street cars and make horrbile power numbers and then wonder why. The last "race" car i owned was a 1991 eclipse gsx that put down over 420 hp to the ground (i will dig up dyno sheets and tuning info). most people also dont understand how crucial tuning is to making horsepower too. you cant just slap on a turbo and expect to make big numbers without fine tuning everything.

You guys seem to always have good info and informative write-ups which is very good for those trying to do things that theyve never done before. It helps them understand what to do, and also what not to do.:D
 




jah81592

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Jah - Yeah, you gave it out and now I'm gonna...


wait, I have not clue about the blow off valve or the waste gate. I'll wait for a little while so you'll forget and then post a new thread.:D

I dont have anything to hide. Currently no blow off. But that is in the works! Being I have a draw thru MAF setup I am "supposed" to run my blowoff in a recirculatory setup. But... I have seen a few lately not done that way and they are after the MAF. So I believe I am gonna try that, I bet it will work with good tuning. Oh yeah the wastegate is a Tial 38MM(don't go cheap on this) this is the only thing regulating your boost. So buy a good one.-J
 




jah81592

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Being a tuner I look at the small stuff. The inlet tube going to the throttle body is too small (especially being blow thru). I guarantee you he is close to pegging that meter. The when he started talking about a Strategy Flash(preprogrammed-not custom tuned) I cringed thinking of the tip in being lean. Just goes to show how some people dont really think how important tuning is.-j
 




rocket 5979

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Being a tuner I look at the small stuff. The inlet tube going to the throttle body is too small (especially being blow thru). I guarantee you he is close to pegging that meter. The when he started talking about a Strategy Flash(preprogrammed-not custom tuned) I cringed thinking of the tip in being lean. Just goes to show how some people dont really think how important tuning is.-j




HEHEHEHEHEHE....Using a friggin SF to tune that car!?!?!? Hehehe. Holy god that car is gonna gonne blow! Keep an eye out on youtube for a V6 Mustang blowing its engine. The SF's are ok for relatively stock cars with a bolton or two here or there that are looking to get the power from a tune and just stick with it. They do have end-user adjustability but nowhere near as much as what is required for tuning a blown application.

Yeah, that meter will peg pretty darn early with that small of a tube that it is in. He better be ready with a MAFia sitting on his garage bench because he is likely to need it if the boost is pushed a little.
 




justin146

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Okay guys - the speed section seems really slow to me right now. I wasn't going to post anything up about this but maybe we could all use another turbo build up thread?

I'm about to take on the task of adding a remote mount turbo to my exploder. I want to follow Jah81592's success and build from that. In other words, I'll be almost mirroring his set-up. It's tried and true so there's no point in me trying to think of a better way of doing this.

I've ordered a kit from Rocket5979 and he's given me A LOT of good information and I want to thank him for that. As always, James from Hensonperformance is someone I truly respect and thanks to him for helping me along the way too.

Now that credit is out of the way..

As soon as I receive the kit, I'll start making plans on how I'm going to run the pipes and such. Speaking of pipes, I'm thinking about going with dynomax ultraflows for a mid muffler (Before the turbo) I'll see how loud that is. If it's too loud, I may add another muffler after the turbo but It's still up in the air.

I'm not sure how I'm going to fit this in my schedule, but I do know I couldn't do this alone. I'm just way to busy with life to do a turbo set-up by myself, so I'll be having good ole dad help me out on this one.

Please don't hold your breath on this. Don't expect me to do this really fast cuss It's going to be a second priority in my life. I'll get it done when I can, but I'll also try and take progress pics along the way.


What turbo did you order? a 60-1 with a P-trim wheel and .58 housing?
 




justin146

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I believe it's the exact same as Jame's; a T04E 60-1 .58 trim.

Here's a compressor map for anyone that might know what there looking at....

http://www.turbofast.com.au/FlowTO4E.html


James has a brand new BA3000 that he got in case we needed it for my truck- I am sure he would sell it to you. I am going to need something larger in the spring though. Cool thing about the BA meters is that the IAT sensor is in the MAF housing(like your stock housing), so you wouldnt have to come up with an IAT sensor setup like mine. The LMAF has to have a seperate sensor.

Here is the map of your turbo, the one you linked is a 60 trim, which is smaller than a 60-1

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/Fig9.gif
 




rocket 5979

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Here is the map of your turbo, the one you linked is a 60 trim, which is smaller than a 60-1

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/Fig9.gif



Yep. That is the correct compressor map there that Justin posted. The difference between the 60-1 and the 60 trim is that the 60 trim has 6 vanes whereas the 60-1 is the same thing, just an extra vane. One is rated for 520 hp and the other is rated for 620 hp. That is a flywheel figure, not rear wheel.
 




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Okay guys - the speed section seems really slow to me right now. I wasn't going to post anything up about this but maybe we could all use another turbo build up thread?

Speaking of pipes, I'm thinking about going with dynomax ultraflows for a mid muffler (Before the turbo) I'll see how loud that is. If it's too loud, I may add another muffler after the turbo but It's still up in the air.

I'm not sure how I'm going to fit this in my schedule, but I do know I couldn't do this alone. I'm just way to busy with life to do a turbo set-up by myself, so I'll be having good ole dad help me out on this one.

Yeah, I do believe the need for speed section is slow now. But I also believe that the mod levels have gotten to the extreme (not a bad thing) but it is out of some peoples budget. Believe it or not, I still have one. I don't have excessive money to be thrown around. I also think we need to welcome the cold air installation, gear changes, intake manifold swaps, exhaust installations,etc. Although they have been done a million times, there is always the guy who hasn't done it yet. To him it is a valuable first step to his performance endeavors. My performance enthusiasm with my Explorer was with a cold air, then it got completely out of hand from there. Sorry about my soap box item as Rocket and I have talked about the need for speed section being slow a few weeks ago. I just want everyone to be welcome in here and not feel they cant be part of the need for speed because they only have a "cold air intake",etc.

With that being said I will shut up now and get off my soap box. I wish you well with your turbo setup. Jake with your fabrication skills ( I have experienced them first hand with my y-pipe), I feel you will do a superb installation and the quality will be second to none. I am very interested in following this thread and I hope to learn as I sit back and watch. What parts do you currently have? If you are wanting to go with a set up like mine, I do have a few suggestions on the fuel system and MAF meter. This way you won't have to repurchase down the road.

Speaking of pipes, the Ultraflow you will be using, is it the welded or the shiney one. I recommend the welded for the additional strength, and the sound. Well...the ultraflow is a straight through design (same as the Magnaflow) but you will have the additional muffling from the turbo. It will still be loud. If you want really loud then I would recommend the Dynomax race bullet. -j
 




rocket 5979

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Speaking of pipes, the Ultraflow you will be using, is it the welded or the shiney one. I recommend the welded for the additional strength, and the sound. Well...the ultraflow is a straight through design (same as the Magnaflow) but you will have the additional muffling from the turbo. It will still be loud. If you want really loud then I would recommend the Dynomax race bullet. -j



Why not just run the exhaust full open like I did in my 4.0 (3.9) turbo vehicle? :D:D:D Only kidding about you doing that of course, though I did run mine fully open....V8 sounds different than V6 with open exhaust though.
 




rocket 5979

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Forgot something. I'm planning a duel exit right out of the turbo (sort of like what Robert did) and I think I'll stick with the 3" pipes for that (Try to get as much "Deep throaty" sound as I can) With that being said, would it be better to get ONE muffler before the turbo, or TWO after the turbo?

You will want to get the exhaust out of there as soon and easy as possible. I suggest that you do a muffler before the turbo as restrictions are less of an obstruction on a higher pressure side versus lower pressure side. If the muffler is on the pressure side of the turbo then it will be less of an obstruction and your spool will be better.
 




jah81592

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Why not just run the exhaust full open like I did in my 4.0 (3.9) turbo vehicle? :D:D:D Only kidding about you doing that of course, though I did run mine fully open....V8 sounds different than V6 with open exhaust though.

I did have my exhaust open (headers, Jakes custom y-pipe and 3" into the turbo). It was too damn loud, I still have a headache.

You will want to get the exhaust out of there as soon and easy as possible. I suggest that you do a muffler before the turbo as restrictions are less of an obstruction on a higher pressure side versus lower pressure side. If the muffler is on the pressure side of the turbo then it will be less of an obstruction and your spool will be better.

I am running muffler pre turbo. I was assuming he would be doing the same. Hence, my reasoning for the welded Dynomax muffler.-j
 




rocket 5979

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I did have my exhaust open (headers, Jakes custom y-pipe and 3" into the turbo). It was too damn loud, I still have a headache.

Hehehe. Yeah, I was just kidding around. My engine is just a liiiiitle bit different than Jakee's engine. Ok, I lied....actually I am still running cats on the LS. I got to do my part to keep the planet clean ya know.



I am running muffler pre turbo. I was assuming he would be doing the same. Hence, my reasoning for the welded Dynomax muffler.-j

Good stuff..... Of course I already knew that you were running a pre-turbo muffler ;).... Jake asked so I figured I would answer.
 








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I'm not going to run a cat either. To heck with that.

Thanks Aut0st

James - I'll have a couple of different things, but all in all it'll be like yours. I plan on mounting the turbo right before the rear axle. (sort of like the STS diagram)
 




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I got an idea for you "lifted" trucks. You can do the STS remote mount, but instead of underneath the truck, you could go over the top of the truck like right over the roof? Who's first?







;)

Just kidding but I thought I'd share my stupid thoughts with you guys.
 


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rocket 5979

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I got an idea for you "lifted" trucks. You can do the STS remote mount, but instead of underneath the truck, you could go over the top of the truck like right over the roof? Who's first?







;)

Just kidding but I thought I'd share my stupid thoughts with you guys.





A turbocharger, ram air, custom CAI and partial roll over cage all into one! :p:
 




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