4R70W 3000 stall and towing question

I am looking to get another Edge converter for my truck when I swap in the 4R70W from the 3550. I am going to want the stall speed raised some for the track, but there I also will hook up to my car trailer and pull the car to the track as well as pull my jonboat to the river as often as I can. I am wanting some input as to how well this is going to work so that I can have my cake and eat it to. I will be purchasing the biggest trans cooler that can fit on the front of the truck, cooling will not be the issue
Jesse

 

[Turdle]

I added dual coolers, with 2-10" fans, bypassed the radiator cooler ( it actually warms fluid to radiator temp) and with careful monitoring of the torque converter lockup keep temps under control. While climbing hills, I need to turn overdrive off to allow the torque converter to lock.
This was with 33" tires and 410 gearing.

I have been on the fence about towing with the high stall converter. Part of me wants to try it but the past experiences while just pulling it's own weight has me very skeptical as to whether it can be done safely.

FYI
A scan guage has trans temp built into it's features, monitoring a temp sensor in the valve body. I found it much more accurate then an in line temp guage which monitored fluid temp right off the torque converter. You might want both-

 

[orion_134]

What is your stall speed and what brand? I am keeping stock tires and 3.73 gears, so I think our final drive is about the same. So the stock fluid circuit pushes through the trans, then the cooler, then to the pan? Good to know, I will be able to do home fluid flushes then
Jesse

 

[Turdle]

98 MX4 link in my signature. Mods in 1st post

 

[orion_134]

Is that a triple lockup version? What speed does it footbrake to? Have you tried modifying your lockup points?

 

[Turdle]

Is that a triple lockup version?

I have never heard that term

What speed does it footbrake to?

Huh?

Have you tried modifying your lockup points?

That was going to be my next step.

 

[orion_134]

Footbrake speed is when you put it in drive and hold the brakes and slowly ramp up the rpms until the power moves/spins the wheels. Triple lockup is three lockup discs.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[CDW6212R]

Welcome back to the site, are you tired of fans yet?

Jon can and has helped you the most, because of his converter and similar modifications.

I have a 2800rpm Edge converter that I'm about to install with a built 4R70W. After the fact I discovered that the Edge converters are built around basically a GM V6 converter. Thus the holding capacity(triple disc etc) is limited for towing.

I'd suggest where I'll go next time, find Dirty Dog(Alan) on the TCCOA site. He has a business of doing the best converters, and knows the 4R70W very well. His prices are competitive, figure $500 or so for a first level performance piece. That's a converter with much more holding capacity(clutch), which is needed for towing.

I have a spare cooler now from a Super Duty, the seconds largest version. I haven't tried to fit the big one yet, and I'm bypassing the radiator also.

 

[orion_134]

Yes, the one I installed on my Super Duper was about 20" x 12" stacked plate monster. I didn't know that about the Edge's, but I do know they are lifetime warranted. I will look that guy up also, does he have a company or is he independent? As for fans, oh no, I don't get much market for them here because of the limited space. However, the Contour dual fan (I think it was a Contour) I put on my truck is dern near perfect but requires much more work/time to make it beneficial to sell.
BTW, good job advertising the Fair Tax Plan, I definitely agree.
Back on topic,
I would think if the lockup points were based on the correct TPS values, then the stall speed could be higher (within reason) and the lockup could cover for it. Big problem as weight increases and power to the ground isn't increased or up hills, but maybe in the 2k's stall speed area it should be fine. When you doing the 2800 swap?

 

[CDW6212R]

I think it was Andre I spoke with at Edge. He told me the converters these days will do better on the street or towing with higher stalls, than was the case 20 years ago. Jon can tell you a lot about his and the lockup because he's used it for offroading and monitored that carefully. The cooling is important, I hope the big ones will fit in front there, they are about 18" tall and full width, 1/2" barbed ends.

I've had a shoulder problem from work since March 3rd, I'd been waiting for the weather. I just had my first official visit to an orthopedist, X-rays and a shot. It seems like just a stressed joint from work, and working full time has made it very slow to go away. So I'm relieved to get a diagnosis of it not being a tear etc, but it needs proper exercise and careful work stress(I case mail which is hard on the shoulder).

I'm planning to get back to it now, put together my 4R70W and pull the old AWD and trans. Very soon now,

See these links for Alan and his site, I found this with a search;
http://www.dirtydogperformance.com/...aode/billet-small-pattern-4r70w/prod_103.html
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=51637&highlight=4R70W+converter

 

[ford99_1979]

Don hope you get your body back in order soon!!


So Don, what you and Turdle are saying is by-passing the stock cooler is and running additional coolers is almost necessary?

I will not be off-roading or towing, but I will be running a 347 type power through it. I've had some conversations and emails with Alan @ dirty dog. Seems to be a great guy to deal with and I will be getting a converter from him.

I'm just not sure if I want a 11" billet 3000rpm converter or a 12" 2500rpm converter.

Also will a torque converter and shift kit be enough for a NA 347? or does the 4R70W need further beefing?

 

[CDW6212R]

I think you can get your choice of stall speed for a given converter. Alan can do it, the tough part is giving him an accurate figure of power at the rpm's around the stall speed. I used 350hpmax and about the same torque as the estimate for my 2800rpm Edge unit. That may be a little low given what I've read of others with similar 347's since then.

Which heads are you using? I would get with Jay Allen as nicely as possible and ask him for his estimate of power given your intake and his cam and heads. He should be able to get much closer than any other estimate. Give that to Alan for the torque converter.

I think Alan would agree that a 98+ 4R70W is relatively strong, if it's in sound condition. If you have the 96 trans I'd be easy on it, you can make it eat the keeper snap ring on the diode quickly with rpm's much over 5000. They sling off with centrifugal force. You really need the upgraded reverse drum with mechanical diode, and Sonnax rings to hold it on. That's about $135 new on eBay, plus the Sonnax ring kit, maybe $10. You could swap just those parts if you had to, they are at the very front behind the pump.

He and I would suggest changing at least the EPC, maybe more of the solenoids depending on mileage. A shift kit will work fine for a NA 347, but more than that should mean pulling out a shift kit, and using a "Jerry" modded car VB. I need to do my VB and get back with Alan if I forgot anything or my notes are bad.

 

[ford99_1979]

I think you can get your choice of stall speed for a given converter. Alan can do it, the tough part is giving him an accurate figure of power at the rpm's around the stall speed. I used 350hpmax and about the same torque as the estimate for my 2800rpm Edge unit. That may be a little low given what I've read of others with similar 347's since then.

Which heads are you using? I would get with Jay Allen as nicely as possible and ask him for his estimate of power given your intake and his cam and heads. He should be able to get much closer than any other estimate. Give that to Alan for the torque converter.

I think Alan would agree that a 98+ 4R70W is relatively strong, if it's in sound condition. If you have the 96 trans I'd be easy on it, you can make it eat the keeper snap ring on the diode quickly with rpm's much over 5000. They sling off with centrifugal force. You really need the upgraded reverse drum with mechanical diode, and Sonnax rings to hold it on. That's about $135 new on eBay, plus the Sonnax ring kit, maybe $10. You could swap just those parts if you had to, they are at the very front behind the pump.

He and I would suggest changing at least the EPC, maybe more of the solenoids depending on mileage. A shift kit will work fine for a NA 347, but more than that should mean pulling out a shift kit, and using a "Jerry" modded car VB. I need to do my VB and get back with Alan if I forgot anything or my notes are bad.

I am using the Trick Flow fast as cast 190cc heads. I will try and find out about power numbers at certain rpm's with my parts combo and give Alan @ Dirty Dog that information for selection of a converter.

Planning to outsource the transmission as I am not going to tackle the transmission myself, its beyond me. I gotta talk to some local tranny guys and get a feel for what they suggest and compare notes with what you have suggested and what Alan suggests. I may be better suited just getting the whole deal at Dirty Dog Performance.

Back to the cooling part of things. No matter what route I go with the converter and trans, I should upgrade cooling as well? Upon re-reading that question, I know the answer already.

 

[Turdle]

Yes
and don;t forget the scan gauge
it will read trans temp very accurately, not to mention the other gauges it replaces all in one neat unit.

I found monitoring the fluid temp in line was much higher temp reading , just for arguments sake.

The scan gauge reads trans temp, where the xcal would not.

 

[ford99_1979]

Turdle you talking about one of these ?

 

[CDW6212R]

Okay Jon, so the new Scangauge reads the trans temp from OBDII port, but the flasher doesn't? That sucks. I like the first Scangauge, but it's not a good design for mounting full time. I've got a gauge to mount in the pillar, and am planning to tap into the pan with it.

The radiator isn't great for best trans cooling, required if you don't have a good front mounted cooler. With a very good front cooler, stop the fluid from going through the radiator.

 

[techieman33]

Okay Jon, so the new Scangauge reads the trans temp from OBDII port, but the flasher doesn't? That sucks. I like the first Scangauge, but it's not a good design for mounting full time. I've got a gauge to mount in the pillar, and am planning to tap into the pan with it.

The radiator isn't great for best trans cooling, required if you don't have a good front mounted cooler. With a very good front cooler, stop the fluid from going through the radiator.

Yes the scan gauge will read the trans temps, but my x-cal 2 will not. I'm not sure about the x-cal 3, livewire, etc.

 

[Turdle]

Turdle you talking about one of these ?

Yup. You will like it trust me. It even gives MPG in real time.
intake temp,speed, rpm's, coolant temp, fuel flow and more all at the touch of a button.

 

[ford99_1979]

Looks like a useful device. I'll add it to the list. Just have to figure out a good mounting location for that.

Thanks Turdle

 

[Turdle]

Looks like a useful device. I'll add it to the list. Just have to figure out a good mounting location for that.

Thanks Turdle

Right above the cubbyhole ( farthest forward) area of the center console, and right below the hvac controls is a nice rectangular spot that it fits perfectly. A little velcro to stick it in place. Plus the cable is easy to route and hide behind the console void under the dash.