4R70W shudder

[JoshT]

So automagic transmissions are out of my wheelhouse. I understad the concept at a very high level, but for the most part it's just magic. I don't really even know where to begin on troubleshooting transmission problems or sometimes evenif a problem is caused by the transmission.

What I've got is a 2000 Explorer 5.0L AWD drivetrain swapped into my 99 Ranger. Engine is fresh rebuilt, solid, tuned, and appears to be sorted. I do not believe that the issue started with the fresh engine, but didn't drive it much before the fresh engine to have a reference point. The transmission is original 180K+ mile Explorer AWD 4R70W. Only things changed on trans are new fluid and filter with the swap.

What I'm experienceing I can best relate to a manual transmission to describe. You know when driving a manual if you have the transmission in too high of gear for the speeds it'll buck or shudder. That's kind of what this feels like, but fairly light. Most noticable conditions are at 40-45 MPH on flat level ground with just enough throttle applied to maintain speed. If you open throttle to acellerate any it goes away, if you let off throttle it goes away. At this speed if you turn off OD it also goes away.

Happens at some other speeds too under same conditions, but that 40-45 range is most noticable.

I suppose it feels like lightly lugging the engine. In a manual trans I'd downshift, but an automatic isn't supposed to require manually downshifting (or turning off OD). I'm fairly sure that the culprit is something to do with transmission, whether it is something worn out, or shift points need adjusting in the tune. I have no idea where to begin on diagnosing and fixing.

I'd love to just say no driving at those speeds, a Sammy Hagar solution. Unfortunately given speed limits and places I regularly drive, that isn't an option. I'm just not sure how to advance on diagnosing and fixing.

FWIW, a shift kit (or J-mod) is in the plans for the future, but don't want to invest that into this transmission if I'll be replacing/rebuilding it in short order. Not to mention if there is a non-valvebody related problem, those modifications would likely acellerate the need for repalcement. On the flip side, if it is valvebody related, the shift kit modifications and reseal may fix it getting more life out of this transmission.

 

[410Fortune]

Any transmission codes in memory?
Was this transmission okay before the new engine?
Does the od light flash ever?
Check engine light on?

You can try a bottle of lubeguard dr tranny shudder fix… seriously that stuff works if it is a light shudder in a sticky converter

If the problem occurred after the engine was swapped then you need to check the work. All wiring at trans must be installed tight
If any water made its way into the trans cooler lines while they were loose.. well it only takes a teaspoon of water to destroy an auto trans the glue the bands are held together with deteriorates when it contacts water.. ask me how I know.
Even if the check engine light is not on you may have e pending or existing transmission trouble codes… these are manufacture specific codes and so a good scanner is needed to retrieve them

If you remove the front d shaft does the issue go away?

The new engine does it have a radical camshaft?

Answer these questions so we can help you

 

[JoshT]

Any transmission codes in memory?

I'll have to check, didn't get a chance today.

Was this transmission okay before the new engine?

Didn't drive it enough to tell. Seemed to be, but the ferry trip home and the small amount of driving post swap and pre-rebuild was not enough variety to test it out. It's also been long enough that I wouldn't remember minor details. The old engine got yanked 6+ months for the rebuild, and it took months waiting for parts that I was "promised" were on the way.

Does the od light flash ever?

Does me turning it on and off rapidly count?

No, no flasking OD light, and I don't turn it on and off rapidly either.

Check engine light on?

No.

You can try a bottle of lubeguard dr tranny shudder fix… seriously that stuff works if it is a light shudder in a sticky converter

Per a discussion we had a few weeks ago I added a bottle of Lubeguard Synthetic ATF Protectant then. Also added the little tube of Instant Shudder Fixx at the same time. Can't say if they really made any difference.

If the problem occurred after the engine was swapped then you need to check the work. All wiring at trans must be installed tight
If any water made its way into the trans cooler lines while they were loose.. well it only takes a teaspoon of water to destroy an auto trans the glue the bands are held together with deteriorates when it contacts water.. ask me how I know.

I'm confident in my wiring connections, but will put hands on them when I have a chance to get the truck off the ground far enough to access them.

While not impossible, the chances of water entering the lines is very slim. IIRC transmission, transmission cooler, and lines were inside shop from time they were removed from donor to being installed in the Ranger. We certainly didn't pour any water into them. IIRC, I also ran transmission cooler flush through the lines prior to reconnection and filling.

Even if the check engine light is not on you may have e pending or existing transmission trouble codes… these are manufacture specific codes and so a good scanner is needed to retrieve them

Possible. I'll hook up FORScan first chance I get. Might be Friday or the weekend.

Still slowly working on the F-250 and the list on it seems to keep growing. OHM check today seems to show that I have a bad glowplug or UVCH, so looks like I get to dig in further. All but one measured between 0.3 and 0.6 ohms. That one measured over 26 ohms. Weather is getting warm enough that they aren;t needed here, so got to decide if I do it now, or wait until we're headed towards winter. On one hand I might not get the chance before they are needed if I wait. On the other hand I don't really feel like pulling the CAC pipes and valve covers, or spending more money on it right now.

I actually have a set of genunie Motorcraft GPs on the shelf, but the UVCHs aren't cheap if it needs to be replaced. Plus, being at 220k miles I'd probably be pulling injectors and installing new o-rings while the VC were off. I've also got an injector rebuild/shim kit on the shelf that I don't know if I should use or not. Getting into more work that I really want to tackle right now.

Sorry, going off topic. Point being the Ranger is running and drivable even if the shudder is annoying. F-250 needs to be priority to get back to that state.

If you remove the front d shaft does the issue go away?

I haven't driven it without the front shaft and really have no intention to. FWIW new joints front and rear on both driveshafts.

If any driveshaft were causing an issue I would think it to be the rear due to pinion angles, and the slip joint likely being close to bottomed out. I am running the rear suspension like it is a 2wd.

I actually had the axle flipped to get the exhaust routed and had to redrill the flip brackets off center because it was bottomed out. Did not drive it with it bottomed, and took it easy on the drive home so fairly positive no damage was done.

Will be having a custom rear shaft built if I get to go lower like I want to. If I don't get to go lower I might still be getting a custom shaft built because it'll be going up instead.

The new engine does it have a radical camshaft?

Couldn't tell you, I don't know much about cam specs. This is the "cam card" I was provided.

They provided the ported top end. I've seen good reviews of their top ends kits on Mustangs, so went with their recommendation for camshaft. Not dissapointed, but I have no experience to compare to. I think I'll be really happy if I can do a shift kit or J-mod on the transmission, but don't want to do that until I know that it's healthy enough.

If I knew that the transmission was otherwise healthy I wouldn't mind doing the VB work or maybe pulling it for a TC. If the transmission is on its way out I don't want to be throwing any abuse at it. I'd rather hold off and get a rebuilt unit from someplace like BCA with the mods already done when money allows.

Really if I know that the TC itself is the issue I can live with it for a while. I'd rather live with the annoyance for about a year and do the same with the BCS transmission.

 

[JoshT]

I should also mention the results of a suggestion from another site. The suggestion:

Tapping the brake pedal will unlock the converter when in lock up. Is it’s shuddering, tap the brake pedal to see if it changes.

Was difficult to drive slow enough to test this on the way home today. I seemed to want to catch a speeding ticket this afternoon. Fortunately someone else was running just a hair faster that I was and cought bubba's attention instead.

Difficult as it was, I did give it a try. From what I understand of this tapping the pedal enough to engage brake switch will tell the TC lockup solenoid to unlock. Touching the brake pedal just enough to engage the switch (audible clock of switch) does have an effect. Things smooth out and the engine has a slight RPM increase. Not enough of an increase to really notice on tach while watching traffic, but enough to hear the difference. The effect is brief and the shudder returns with the RPM going back to "normal" as well.

Holding the brake pedal does not prolong the effect, but it doesn't sound like it should. Repeated tapping does seem to prolong the effect, but it is difficult to also keep the vehicle steady in the conditions where the shudder was occouring while tapping the pedal. I can work booth feet independently, but apparently not that independently. What can I say, I'm used to just using my left foot for a heavy truck clutch pedal, not fine detail work.

 

[JoshT]

Even if the check engine light is not on you may have e pending or existing transmission trouble codes… these are manufacture specific codes and so a good scanner is needed to retrieve them

Life and work haven't played fair. Almost got the F-250 back together, need to reinstall a block drain and pour in water for last round of flush, but I haven't gotten to hook up FORScan and check for more codes yet. Probably should have done it this afternoon since the ground was too wet to want to climb under the 250 and install the plug. Instead I started installing the new Taylor wire set that I've been sitting on several weeks/months.

Man with these knock off TMHs #8 plug wire is a PITA. I'm not sure what the difference in plug boots between the previous set of wires and this one are, but they ain't the same. In the plugs location by the collector I'm going to have to run the "factory" metal shields on that wire to prevent it from burning on the pipes. The previous SKP wire set with the shield installed just fine on number 8. Transferred the shield over to the taylor wire, cannot get it to snap onto the plug. Remove the shield and it installs.

Next step is I'm going to try to shorten the metal tube to see if it allows a better angle and lets it clip into place. Unfortunately I process of trying to make it fit I mangled the angled shell portion and thats where the shield is really needed. Going to stop by the U-pull-it on the way home tomorrow and see if I can pick up a few wires to salvage some more shields off of. Atleast one to replace what I mangled, and hopefully a couple more for when I mangle that one too. If I end up with extras, I wouldn't mind adding them to wires that don't have any.

No way I can run without the shell and have a hope of it surviving. Problem is the boot not the wire, wire I can route and clear headers fine, plus those wires have the sleeve protectors. Push come to shove I'll order some ceramic replacement boots, but I'm really hoping to avoid that. If I have to go that route, I'd have been better off getting components and building my own wire set.

When finances allow (might be a while) I'm definitely getting on the real TMH backorder list.

 

[410Fortune]

I route the wires to the fender apron not to the valve cover
It really helps with the shielding needed for both tmh and obx

For me the trouble cylinder has been number 2 with the obx headers the wire is just very close
I use the stock metal shield like you have, I take them apart and then re install them over the Taylor boot. Then I also add a fiberglass heat sock and some additional heat mat protector on a couple of the wires
Cyl 2 3 6 and 7 are the worst offenders…

 

[CDW6212R]

The shudder you describe, can you make it do that with simply using a light throttle and it happens at the 3rd to 4th gear change speeds? Mine began doing that almost two years ago, and that was with about 250k miles on it. I'm at 273k now.

The shift solenoid for 3rd to 4th gear, or the TCC lock up solenoid, are likely malfunctioning. Each gear change is a planned and timed event that has one gear set of parts letting go, at the same time another gear set are engaging. If it's the 3rd/4th gear change event, then that shift solenoid is worn out(not properly engaging). If it's the TCC locking up the torque convertor, then that might be the TC itself.

The TC is not an easy fix, and you should have replaced that with the new engine. The solenoids and many of the typical wear parts of the VB are easily serviceable. I'd make plans to do the VB, find and buy all of the Sonnax VB parts and the low cost thin 4R70W manual. find the Jerry's Mod instructions, and plan to do all of that, include new solenoids and accumulators, plus springs, if they are available. There are a couple of preferred Jerry's Mod springs for the accumulators, get those two. All of that is wise to do, and nothing is lost if the trans has to be rebuilt soon anyway.

 

[JoshT]

Scored at the salvage yard. Found a 2000 Mountaineer V8, not entirely sure why it was in there. Appeared to still have the original plug wires installed and they looked nice (who knows how they function), they were Ford logoed and had 2000 printed on them. I grabbed the whole set, retaining clips and all. That gave me enough shields, but I was hoping to find a couple more.

Same one also gave up a nice power steering reservior, been wanting to get a spare since no one appears to reproduce them. Walked around to the back and there were two brand new radiator hoses in there. Literally brand new. Well there were actually 3, but the third part number came back to Toyota or Lexus, so it stayed.

If it's still there once I wrap up some other stuff I may go back for more parts. I wouldn't mind snatching the intake manifold and valve covers, among other odds and ends.

I route the wires to the fender apron not to the valve cover
It really helps with the shielding needed for both tmh and obx

For me the trouble cylinder has been number 2 with the obx headers the wire is just very close
I use the stock metal shield like you have, I take them apart and then re install them over the Taylor boot. Then I also add a fiberglass heat sock and some additional heat mat protector on a couple of the wires
Cyl 2 3 6 and 7 are the worst offenders…

Same here on the routing, I wouldn't even try to take #7 & 8 over the VC. I would consider #4 over the VC if I had the stock VCs installed, but with the cast Mustang VCs, it ain't happening.

Strange stuff, and inconsistencies of knockoff parts. #2 appears to be ok on spac, but I honestly don;t remember if I put a metal shield on it or not. #3 was very close, actually had some burning on the sleeve and boot. It got a metal shield harvested from the OE set. Added a shield to #6, but I think it would have been fine without. I'd already put a shield on #7.

#8 is actually my worst offender. It's right in the corner of where #6,7 and 8 merge into the collector. So close to them that it can not be installed with the angled metal shield installed. I tried and tried again. I ended up getting some DEI insulation wrap and installing along with a layer of 500° foil backed insulation tape. I'm hoping that between the two, they might protect the boot. Wire routing is safe, no risk there. If it does manage to burn through, I'll pick up a ceramic plug boot to install. There's enough excess on that wire that I should be able to cut off the end and reuse.

The shudder you describe, can you make it do that with simply using a light throttle and it happens at the 3rd to 4th gear change speeds? Mine began doing that almost two years ago, and that was with about 250k miles on it. I'm at 273k now.

The shift solenoid for 3rd to 4th gear, or the TCC lock up solenoid, are likely malfunctioning. Each gear change is a planned and timed event that has one gear set of parts letting go, at the same time another gear set are engaging. If it's the 3rd/4th gear change event, then that shift solenoid is worn out(not properly engaging). If it's the TCC locking up the torque convertor, then that might be the TC itself.

The TC is not an easy fix, and you should have replaced that with the new engine. The solenoids and many of the typical wear parts of the VB are easily serviceable. I'd make plans to do the VB, find and buy all of the Sonnax VB parts and the low cost thin 4R70W manual. find the Jerry's Mod instructions, and plan to do all of that, include new solenoids and accumulators, plus springs, if they are available. There are a couple of preferred Jerry's Mod springs for the accumulators, get those two. All of that is wise to do, and nothing is lost if the trans has to be rebuilt soon anyway.

I can;t say that I've noticed it coinsiding with a gear change, but this transmission shifts so soft that I'm not ture I would notice. I'll try to pay a little more attention next time.

As for not replacinmg the TC with the engine, I didn't know that I had an issue then. Once I discovered that I had an oil pressure issue with the original swapped engine, I did not drive it enough to notice. If you are saying I should have replaced it just because, keep in mind that the transmission is also nearly 200k miles with unknown history. I'm not counting on it to last a long time, especially if I so a shift kit and start driving it harder. I figure that transfer case is getting replaced same time as transmission.

If I can fix the problem by replacing a few soleniods, great. I'll drop the pan replace solenoids, do J-mod, drive it till it dies. Then replace both and keep going.

If the problem turns out to be the Torque Converter itself, I'm not spending the time and money on solenoids and J-mod. I'll drive it nicely for the next year, then replace them both with new or freshly rebuilt units. I can order a rebuilt and modified transmission with torque converter from someone that knows these transmissions (probably BCA), for the same or less than I can have someone local rebuild mine and I wouldn't trust the locals these days.

 

[CDW6212R]

The TC has clutches inside, they should be considered a wear part and at some mileage, replaced. Rebuilt TC's run over $250 and are fine for normal builds, so change those when the mileage is right. When you get to some higher power that also needs more rpm at launch, then an aftermarket unit is way more expensive.

The main wear items which affect shifting and are the biggest cause of trans failure, those are all serviceable at home without removing the trans. It's not just one part or one type. The VB is the critical control assembly for everything, and it's got hundreds of parts inside. The solenoids are major wear parts, but so are the accumulators an anything with a rubber seal on it. Any leakage hurts fluid pressures, or upsets them, so restoring the biggest known small items is very important.

Transmission shops do not replace anything within the VB unless they identify a problem, and most of those times they just order a remanufactured VB. So if you invest the time and money to improve the VB yourself, you end up with a VB that is great for the next 100k+ miles. If it doesn't fix things greatly, then the issue is either the major internal trans clutch wear parts and seals, or a bigger issue in the VB. These model Ford transmissions rarely need a serious rebuild of a VB, other models like the 5R55E VB are very prone to serious VB problems. Taken care of well, a 4R70W can survive 500k miles with basic care you can do yourself.

Now I'm not saying working on a VB is simple and easy, it takes a bunch of patience and careful planning, to work on the many tiny components and not lose or mix them up. If you do take a shot at the VB, plan it well and slowly, don't touch it without a great manual handy to identify everything you will be working on. Doing just the solenoids is fairly easy, the various other things are more tedious or harder, and mixing things up(or losing things) is a real concern. But in the end, whatever you do if a rebuild is needed, can be retained(the VB components, the Jerry's Mod(holes in the plate)), so not lost during a rebuild. Some shops are dicks, so that can affect anything, don't presume everybody is decent and will do the right thing as you ask for.

 

[CDW6212R]

Oh yeah, the shudder; once you get used to when it is going to happen, you can let off the gas a hair and it should make it shift up more quickly or without the shudder. I've been doing that for almost two years now, it's just like with a manual trans that you purposefully let off just as you shift. In the auto, it makes it easier to shift without causing the harsh shift qualities. Often I have my foot on the gas the amount which causes the shudder and it makes the shudder every time right at the 4th gear shift, about 35-45mph. I'm fairly certain mine is the shift solenoid being lazy(slow) t what it's supposed to do. The TC lock up is a more subtle function, it should not lock up at higher throttle amounts, but at much less throttle(closer to cruising throttle levels). I push the gas hard or fairy strongly 99% of the time, my TC lock up clutches are probably fine.