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Another 5.0L Miss Thread

Cali' Explorer

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Bill-
Thanks for those emails with pictures of your valve covers. From the pictures and measurements, it appears that the '95 Valve Covers you have (Stamped Steel) are identical to the one's on the Explorer. This most likely means no fitty for me :( .

410-
If you could get some pictures (or if you have some pictures) of the underside of those Valve Covers, that would be a great help. The other thing I'm curious about, can you measure how high your valve covers come up on the Drivers side... both the high and low side. From looking at those valve covers, they look significantly taller then the stock one's I have. I'm really hoping that I can squeeze the tall one's in with the 3/8" spacer, but I'm not holding my breath at this point.


All-
Does anyone know if there is a downside to installing a couple of stock stamped steel rockers with all my Roller Rockers? I am really hoping that for the short time, I can just install 2 of the original stamped rockers in the offending locations that are causing the covers to hit so I can get the X home and do my daily 2 - 3 miles worth of driving. If I can do this while searching for the right Valve Covers, my life would be much easier.

The other option would be (as mentioned), clearancing the roller rockers themselves by grinding them down in the corners that are hitting the valve covers. I don't like the latter option nearly as much, but if there is some downside to installing stamped rockers with the roller gear (besides the "Cheese" factor obviously) then this may be my last ditch chance.

Also, I will try and get some pictures and measurements off of my new "Tall" Valve Covers when they arrive. I have heard that they may technically be illegal for California use... but I'm not TOO concerned with that if they fit.
 



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410Fortune

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the ratio's are the same, but I am not even sure if the stamped rocker will fit next to a roller rocker in the tray??

I will get a pic of the underside and measure if you need. I do not see the valve covers causiing you issues with the upper intake plenum unless they are really tall covers.
 






Cali' Explorer

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410-
Ok, that's pretty much what I thought. What I would probably do is install 2 stamped rockers next to one another in the area where I am having the problem, that way I can use the stock trays and what not. It appears to primarily be Cylinder #5 that is causing me all my problems.

I originally thought I was getting hit on the passenger side too, but I found out that is another noise in the valve train that comes every time cylinder 1's intake opens and closes. Not sure what it is exactly, but it doesn't sound bad... we will see.

And ya, if you can get a pic of the undersides and measurements. The most important measurements are the height from the bottom of the flange to the top on both the front and back (the outside is fine, no need to remove them), similarly, the width across the top on the outside (between the 2 "Corner" bolts on the top). I know there was a problem because I couldn't install the Valve Cover bolts when the roller rocker was in a certain position, the bolt wouldn't line up. But, if you've seen the stock covers, they have a very wide radius in the corners where all the aftermarket ones have a very sharp corner to clear better.

I also contacted another local speed shop (Mustang Specific). He said that he has the stock '93 Fox Body and other Valve Covers in stock. He tries to stock them for the Mustang guys, so I may have to take a trip over there this afternoon if I can get out of here soon enough (they close at 5).

Thanks again for all your help, that's what I love about this forum, everyone going out of their way to help. I just hope this thread helps someone else later down the road. I will probably have to take some extra pictures and write up a thread on Roller Rockers and Valve Cover fitment to help future 5.0 RR converters.
 






410Fortune

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hahahaha there is no way I am removing them! I just put the entire engine back together....

the bolt pattern is the same on the HO covers as our explorer....you will need longer bolts for the thicker aluminum covers.

Have you read my 96 build thread? thats where those pics come from, etc.
 






Cali' Explorer

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410-
Ya, I have read your thread. So I've seen what they look like and that's why I comment that they look much taller then the stock ones (at least the stock ones I have). Mine are only 2 1/4" tall from the mounting flange to the top on the outside and are about 2" from the flange to the top on the inside. With how yours looks, it looks like they are closer to 3" tall, but again, its hard to tell from the pictures for sure.

Also, on yours, it looks like the part you have a hard time clearing and need the spacer for is the vacuum lines, is that correct?

Ohh, and no worries on removing them, wasn't looking for that at all, just if you had pictures of them already, haha. Like I say, that biggest thing I want to know about is the height to see how much of a clearance issue I might have with the "Tall" ones I purchased. They are about 3 3/4" tall, which is almost 2x taller then stock. BUT, the fuel line standoffs on the stock valve covers sit at about 4 1/4" high, so I still think it might possibly clear, won't know for sure until I try it.
 






410Fortune

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I dont think the spacer is required, but it did make my TB clear the oil filler neck, otherwise I could have simply just cut it about 1" off the top of the cover and installed the explorer style rubber hose and extension.


They may look taller simply because they are aluminum and not stamped steel

I believe 100% from what I have seen and read that these HO ciovers will clear your rollers, plus they are cheap cheap
 






Cali' Explorer

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Well, good news. I took a ride over to the local Mustang Speed Store. Sadly, they didn't have anything to offer me beyond what everone else has... EXCEPT to check a mustang repair shop around the corner.

Took a trip around the corner and low and behold, he had a set of '93 Mustang Cast Aluminum Valve covers collecting dust under a cabinet. They look like the were on an engine that was painted Ford Blue at some point and really need a good cleanup, but other than that, they look great. $25 later I have the valve covers.

Of course I still have to grind out all the goodies inside of them to make clearance for the rockers, but I took some rough numbers on the sizes to give all a feel for the difference between these and stock stamped rockers.


Inside Width at Bottom of Valve Cover (Exhaust Side)
Stock Stamped: 16"
'93 Cast Aluminum: 16 1/4" with Casting Fudge, 17" without Casting Fudge (woohoo, 1/2" more on either side)

Inside Width at Top of Valve Cover (Intake Side)
Stock Stamped: 18"
'93 Cast Aluminum: 18" (No Gain Here)

Inside Height at Bottom of Valve Cover (Exhaust Side)
Stock Stamped: 2"
'93 Cast Aluminum: 2 1/2" with Casting Fudge & Baffles, approximately 3" without casting fudge (almost full inch more clearance)

Inside Height at Top of Valve Cover (Intake Side)
Stock Stamped: 2"
'93 Cast Aluminum: 2" with Casting Fudge & Baffles, approximately 2 1/4" - 2 1/2" without casting fudge


The '93 Cast Aluminum Valve Covers definitely have more of a slant to them. The Stock Stamped Steel ones have almost 0 slant at all wherease these have a very noticeable one. In addition, there is a lot of casting fudge left over in the valve covers that I will need to start grinding out. Hopefully the dremel can handle it :D .

I'll try and get pictures inside and out of the Valve Covers later this evening.
 












Cali' Explorer

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Hehe, indeed. Now I just have to get the extra support ribs and baffles.

For those of you who are interested, here is a thread on another forum talking about and showing how they clearance these valve covers:
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=762176

It looks like I don't need to knock down all the support ribs, jiust the ones in the corners as well as the baffle and support. Does that match what yours looked like 410?


I do have one other issue I came up with my motor that until now I haven't been worried about too much. Whenever the very first valve on Cylinder 1 (I believe it is the intake valve) would compress and detract, I got a sound that almost sounds like roller rockers rubbing on valve covers (not very loud though). I found this because when I was running the starter, I thought that it was the drivers side rubbing too, but it still made the noise when all the covers were removed. It was in perfect sink with that valve raising and lowering as well.

I am thinking it may just be the hydraulic lifters as they have been sitting now for 6 weeks or so with no oil pressure, so they probably bled down some. I am going to loosen that one rocker to check and see if its the rocker, and if so, try swapping it to another location. My personally feeling is that its nothing horrible, but I thought I should bring it up and run it past everyone here. Any thoughts?


I will get some pictures later of my valve covers for you to all peruse over (of course, they are not in anywhere near as good a condition as 410's), haha.
 






Cali' Explorer

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Well, as I said, here are some pictures of the Valve Covers. Sorry for the horrible quality, my nice Digi Cam is dead, and this Digi not only has poor quality, but no flash *grumble*. I'll get better pictures with the fancy 35mm and then get them on CD later.

Passengers Top - Exhaust Side
93-passengers_top-1.jpg



Passengers Top - Intake Side
93-passengers_top-2.jpg



Passengers Bottom - Whole Valve Cover
93-passengers_bottom-1.jpg



Passengers Bottom - Baffle Area
93-passengers_bottom_baffle-.jpg



If you look in all the corners, you will notice dark protrusions. These are basically extra supports that were cast in. These are what may need to be removed for additional clearance. I will be removing them in mine because I need all the clearance I can get.

Also, what you can't tell from the pictures of the baffle area is that the baffle protrudes out from the top of the valve cover about 1/4", and then the metal baffle itself has a rounded shape (like a coke can holder) that causes it to have an additional 1/4" protrusion. I will first try fitting them without the baffles, and if they clear, I will just flatten the baffles, otherwise I will have to grind out the baffle standoffs.

Glacier is going to lend me a die grinder (and possibly an angle grinder) so I don't have to spend 50 hours with my dremel griding out these castings. Thanks Glacier :thumbsup:
 






410Fortune

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those look exactly the same as mine, I removed the bafflesonly. no grinding and as far as I can tell they clear......but this thread is making me nervous to crank it over!!
If they hit its a few hours of work easy to get them off and clearanced, then on again..
 






Cali' Explorer

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410-
With you having the actual FMS Roller Rockers, you should be ok. The main spot I am hitting on has to do with the Crane Cam "Blue Racer" Roller Rockers not being narrowed as much as the FMS ones are. After I went back and looked at the pictures, it actually looks like the stock ones are closer to 15 1/2" wide in their narrowest location vs. the Cast Aluminum ones that are 16" even with the casting stuff in the sides. I would say that if you checked clearance and got no rocker movement, you should be good.

Its also good to know that I may not need to do anything more then remove the baffles. I will still get the Die Grinder just in case and knock out those corners at a minimum, no reason to take a chance if I have the time to grind them out. But, I wouldn't worry too much about yours, the only guys I've heard of having to grind out the extra casting is typically guys using Poly Locks or 1.7+ roller rockers on decked heads.

Most of my pains are from getting the $70 cheaper roller rockers. Had I gotten the FMS ones, they probably would have cleared fine. But, as many have mentioned, each vehicle is different.
 






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well nobody told me I could get the cheaper ones! hahaha

Actually I think I got the FMS ones el cheapo! $160? I forget.
I have been told I will be fine, and I got no vaseline on the covers with no gaskets, so I am pretty sure I will clear, but it still makes me nervous because thats 3-4 hours of work! I could have avoided!! hahaha

Ah well no biggie.
I expect your oil fill will be right in front of your throttle body, so you might want to cut that filler neck in prep for the rubber coupling and filler neck from the stock covers....
I clear by maybe 1/4" with my 1" spacer, and I will have to remove my intake tube from the TB in order to remove the oil fill cap.

I could have put the oil fill on the pass side I guess, but seemed odd to me to have to go over the brake booster to get to it/pour......
 






Cali' Explorer

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Ya, I'm probably going to cut downt he oil fill tube and put the stock oil fill tube on it.

Also, when you installed the upper intake spacer, did you use the stock torque specs, and did you have to modify the EGR tube more to get it to fit? Whether I need it or not, I plan to install the intake spacer, so I should ask these questions now, haha.
 






Bill MacLeod

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Steven:

Torque your upper to stock specs. The outer lower corners are notorious for breaking "out".

Did you get longer bolts with your spacer?
 






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You need two additional longer bolts (the spacer kits are made for Mustangs)

I do not have an EGR tube as my engine is a 96 non P heads with internal EGR.

I did chop off the 3rd mounting point on my coil pack mount, it normally would mount to where the intake goes on the lower, but this spot is now 1" higher up, the bracket is PLENTY stable with just two bolts.
The throttle cable bracket also is only installed with 2 bolts, the 3rd is on th ecoil bracket which is now down 1", again this bracket is plenty stable without the 3rd connection.
With a welder you could easily modify both brackets to still work with all 3 bolts, I personally did not see the need and I may be rotating my throttle body pretty soon anyways (to get the IAC on the side, not the top)

You could pick up a brand new GER tube from Ford if you have the P heads, they come straight and are not too difficult to bend up to the shape you need.
 






Cali' Explorer

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Bill-
I did get new bolts with the kit, but it is missing 2 (the upper takes 4 long and 4 short, the kit comes with 2 long and 4 short, so I will need to pick up 2 more).

410-
That sounds good enough. I didn't realize you had the internal EGR. I'm not TOO concerned again... I think if I was doing the spacer and the TM Headers it might be a bigger issue, but after I looked at the spacer again, 3/8" isn't all that much, I'm sure I can make it fit, may just have to lengthen a couple of the tubs or something, we'll see.

Also, I noticed your upper intake came with washered upper intake bolts. Mine just came with plain bolts with no washers. I may go ahead and replace all the bolts that came in my kit with Grade 8 One's with washers as the washers should dispurse the load a little more evenly and give a more accurate torque.
 












Cali' Explorer

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JTSmith-
Thanks for that, but the shipping cost to get them here tomorrow is probably more then the cost of buying them all. I could just get the 2 I am missing and call it a day, but then there would be 2 Grade 8 and 2 whatever these are... for some reason I like everything to match whenever possible, haha.
 



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410Fortune

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grade 8 on intake bolts? You are threading into aluminum here not the Titanic!
Yes mine came with washers, but the factory bolts have no washers.
The two bolts I bought at my local Ace were silver and the ones from Ford Racing were black, so I put the silver ones under the 5.0L intake cover.....miss color matching problem solved.
 






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