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Auto Start-Stop Technology...Please NO!

imp

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An engine can die at any time for multiple reasons. All I can state from my experience on multiple 2018 Expedition, 2018 Lincoln Navigator and 2018 EcoSport rentals which all had Start/Stop that the vehicle starts as soon as you start to lift off the brake. Unless I slide my foot to the right of the brake and onto the gas, it restarts before I can even get my foot of the brake. The only time I could beat the engine is while pressing the brake as normal and instead of releasing pressure off the pedal, I slid to the right and met the gas pedal (this is not normal in my opinion of anyone).

The starting of the engine takes literally two blinks of an eye unlike a normal start. If your engine is going to die after restart, it would also die if it stayed running caused by the same exact issue.

For those who haven't driven it, here is a video I found. The Start-Stop starts up far quicker then a normal startup when getting into the vehicle. There is next to zero cranking of the engine.

@blwnsmoke
I fully appreciate what you are saying, but must take issue with the fact that the engine re-starts far quicker than a normal start-up. How can that be possible? Think about it.......are the same electromechanical devices in play to start the engine? i.e., the starter cranking the engine? If you were called upon to take an average vehicle with normally-encountered starting system, that is, a starting motor energized by a battery, and make it start instantly, how would you accomplish that? I know you cannot answer that question; and I cannot either.

If the "shut-down" engine were kept in some sort of state where it actually did not shut down, a sort of 'hibernation", still turning and firing it's cylinders more slowly than at idle speed, but not stopped completely, I can see this concept as being acceptable......very quick re-start because it really isn't, and does not involve true "re-starting". I have no idea if this is what they are doing, but I doubt it.

Thus, given the myriad unsafe circumstances as I mentioned, I remain unconvinced. imp
 
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RhinoQuartz

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@blwnsmoke
I fully appreciate what you are saying, but must take issue with the fact that the engine re-starts far quicker than a normal start-up. How can that be possible? Think about it.......are the same electromechanical devices in play to start the engine? i.e., the starter cranking the engine? If you were called upon to take an average vehicle with normally-encountered starting system, that is, a starting motor energized by a battery, and make it start instantly, how would you accomplish that? I know you cannot answer that question; and I cannot either.

If the "shut-down" engine were kept in some sort of state where it actually did not shut down, a sort of 'hibernation", still turning and firing it's cylinders more slowly than at idle speed, but not stopped completely, I can see this concept as being acceptable......very quick re-start because it really isn't, and does not involve true "re-starting". I have no idea if this is what they are doing, but I doubt it.

Thus, given the myriad unsafe circumstances as I mentioned, I remain unconvinced. imp
So, here are some links for you:

Video -

Explanation from Haynes.com - Engine Stop-Start Technology Explained

Wikipedia - Start-stop system - Wikipedia

Car and Driver - Engine Stop-Start Systems Explained - Tech. Dept. - Car and Driver

Driving.ca - How It Works: Starters and automatic start-stop technology
 
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TheWombat

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I've driven a number of cars with stop-start technology and never had an issue. The engine restarts immediately. The main benefit/use case for the stop-start in my view is where you are just stuck in traffic that is going straight, or at traffic/stop lights - in neither of these circumstances does stopping the engine cause a significant issue/concern in my view. If you are at a busy junction where you need to cross traffic without traffic/stop lights based on quickly reacting to a gap in traffic then you either temporary switch off the stop-start feature or you ensure the engine is already started by reviewing the traffic and slightly touching the accelerator in preparation so the engine starts.

While I will often switch the stop-start off it is because I don't often drive in traffic, I have never experienced any issues with it starting when I need it to. I am sure the first time ABS or other new features came out people were concerned.

TheWombat.
 

imp

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@RhinoQuartz
OK, I've read all the links and watched the vid, and I thank you! I call your attention to the following quotes from the material you provided:

"future engines for start-stop applications need to be designed for 250,000 to 300,000 starts."
"Some implementations do not use a starter motor[citation needed], eliminating concerns of starter motor wear. Mazda i-stop used in their Mazda3/Axela line (in Europe and JDM) uses combustion to assist the starter motor by sensing the position of the piston in the cylinder. They claim quieter and quicker engine restart within 0.35 seconds.[43]"
"Start-stop systems are heavily reliant on the battery. Testing indicates that AGM batteries diminish in their ability to support start-stop functionality over time. [1]. While alternatives exist (NiZn, Lithium-Ion, supercapacitors,[44] PbC), virtually all automakers continue to use conventional AGM lead acid batteries."
(from Wiki)

"Mazda tried to complicate things in 2008 when it teased engine geeks with its theoretical Smart Idle Stop System (SISS), which attempted the operation without relying on the starter motor. SISS would have manipulated the alternator load to stop all four pistons exactly halfway through their stroke. To restart, the cylinder in its compression stroke would get a small squirt of fuel that, when burned, would spin the internals backward just enough to produce compression in the neighboring cylinder. That cylinder would then receive a normal supply of fuel, and its combustion would spin the crank in the proper direction. Unfortunately, this elegant idea never materialized, and Mazda went the more traditional route with its i-stop, available on 2.0-liter gasoline Mazdas in Japan and Europe."
"Canada is one market in which stop/start should succeed. Toronto has a law that makes idling in boats, cars, and even buses for more than one minute per hour punishable by a fine of up to $5000. It would take a Mountie on every corner and maybe the ghost of Lord Stanley himself to enforce it, but we admire the attempt to promote this simple way of saving fuel."
(from Car and Driver)

I did glean a very important fact, which distinctly alters my previous views on start-stop. That is, use of the electric motor to get the vehicle rolling after shutting down the IC engine. Then, restart of the IC becomes quite easy, making the starting motor unnecessary (if they do it that way!), which I don't know. In fact, why have a starter in a true hybrid anyway? These are things I've never considered, and I thank you for providing enlightenment! imp
 

RhinoQuartz

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@RhinoQuartz
OK, I've read all the links and watched the vid, and I thank you! I call your attention to the following quotes from the material you provided:

"future engines for start-stop applications need to be designed for 250,000 to 300,000 starts."
"Some implementations do not use a starter motor[citation needed], eliminating concerns of starter motor wear. Mazda i-stop used in their Mazda3/Axela line (in Europe and JDM) uses combustion to assist the starter motor by sensing the position of the piston in the cylinder. They claim quieter and quicker engine restart within 0.35 seconds.[43]"
"Start-stop systems are heavily reliant on the battery. Testing indicates that AGM batteries diminish in their ability to support start-stop functionality over time. [1]. While alternatives exist (NiZn, Lithium-Ion, supercapacitors,[44] PbC), virtually all automakers continue to use conventional AGM lead acid batteries."
(from Wiki)

"Mazda tried to complicate things in 2008 when it teased engine geeks with its theoretical Smart Idle Stop System (SISS), which attempted the operation without relying on the starter motor. SISS would have manipulated the alternator load to stop all four pistons exactly halfway through their stroke. To restart, the cylinder in its compression stroke would get a small squirt of fuel that, when burned, would spin the internals backward just enough to produce compression in the neighboring cylinder. That cylinder would then receive a normal supply of fuel, and its combustion would spin the crank in the proper direction. Unfortunately, this elegant idea never materialized, and Mazda went the more traditional route with its i-stop, available on 2.0-liter gasoline Mazdas in Japan and Europe."
"Canada is one market in which stop/start should succeed. Toronto has a law that makes idling in boats, cars, and even buses for more than one minute per hour punishable by a fine of up to $5000. It would take a Mountie on every corner and maybe the ghost of Lord Stanley himself to enforce it, but we admire the attempt to promote this simple way of saving fuel."
(from Car and Driver)

I did glean a very important fact, which distinctly alters my previous views on start-stop. That is, use of the electric motor to get the vehicle rolling after shutting down the IC engine. Then, restart of the IC becomes quite easy, making the starting motor unnecessary (if they do it that way!), which I don't know. In fact, why have a starter in a true hybrid anyway? These are things I've never considered, and I thank you for providing enlightenment! imp
Thank you for taking the time to read it all and providing a succinct write up! Gosh, this forum is great, I would just get flamed on Facebook for that :D.

That particular Mazda application would have been interesting and is quite ingenious in theory, although, as mentioned, not realistic (or at least wasn't). I have quite liked Mazdas engine developments, their wankel engine was fascinating to me as a child, I couldn't figure out how they came up with that (the name certainly elicited giggles as well).

You're most welcome for those links; I tried to link a few more videos, but couldn't post them for some reason - I assume user-induced-error.
 

imp

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@RhinoQuartz Regarding the rotary engine: Back in 1965, I think it was, NSU of Germany introduced an NSU Spyder powered by the newly-developed Wankel Rotary Engine. My company, Victor Mfg. & Gasket Co. in Chicago, bought one for testing purposes, anticipating development of sealing products for the new engine design. Prototype testing indicated the lobe seals of the rotor were prone to fast wear-out. I got to take it home overnight once! Sounded almost like a vacuum cleaner. My good friend and co-worker, Paul Gallo, ran the Field Test Lab, let me drive the car "off the record", and I observed him as he removed the engine and disassembled it. I think I may have a few pics of the eng. somewhere, will try to find them. I got married that same year, and......well, you know how it is! imp
 

CDW6212R

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I like the idea, but my worry is from experience with older cars. What happens when all of the components are ten years old, or how about 20, and more?

Older cars need more care, but usually they all get way less care than they need. People wait until failure before finally looking for a problem, and fix it only if they have to. That will not work well with this kind of technology. This will work okay for new cars or relatively new cars.

I start and stop hundreds of times a day for work. I am required to remove the key every time I get out of the seat(out of the car). I am already experiencing worry about issues with the starter, battery, cables etc. I need to replace the key cylinder, and shift linkage, which I have new but not ready to install yet(this is not my primary work truck(I want to put the new parts in once, not now and then again later)).

Driving anywhere is dangerous, by definition. I need a vehicle that reacts faster than what I'd call slow or lazy(a faster reaction is safer than a slow reaction). I don't like the idea of adding another complication to vehicle maintenance, short or long term. I'd use that feature for light use, straight stop and go traffic. Turning should disable it, and/or there should be a more efficient way to enable/disable it.
 
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deerfarm

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I have a 2018 150 with auto start/stop. Love the truck, do not like having to disable the start/stop all of the time. I also have a 2017 Explorer. As of now, I would consider a 2020 Explorer, but not with the auto start/stop.
 

15Limited

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I have a 2018 150 with auto start/stop. Love the truck, do not like having to disable the start/stop all of the time. I also have a 2017 Explorer. As of now, I would consider a 2020 Explorer, but not with the auto start/stop.
Have you disabled the start/stop feature on your F-150 with FORScan? If so, how do you like it now?
 

peterk9

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Took my Explorer in for service today. Dealer provided a 2018 Edge as a loaner. When I came to the first red light the engine stopped running. As soon as I took my foot off the brake the engine started again. This was my first experience with the Stop & Go feature. I didn't find it intrusive or annoying at all. The engine starts up so quickly again that it is already running before you get to the accelerator. I don't know how much fuel that feature would save me as I live in a small town/village in a more rural setting so having to stop at lights would not be frequent. At some stop signs it should also not be an issue since it takes at least a couple seconds for the engine to cut out.

Peter
 

deerfarm

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Have you disabled the start/stop feature on your F-150 with FORScan? If so, how do you like it now?
I haven't done anything to permanently disable it yet. I don't have many miles on the truck and want to make sure I have no warranty issues first.
 

15Limited

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I haven't done anything to permanently disable it yet. I don't have many miles on the truck and want to make sure I have no warranty issues first.
The beauty of using FORScan to disable the feature is that it’s easily reversible...unlike the method posted in the video above.
 

RhinoQuartz

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The beauty of using FORScan to disable the feature is that it’s easily reversible...unlike the method posted in the video above.
That is not true. It CAN be easily reversible and if you don't wander too far off the beaten track it will be, BUT it's also quite easy to brick a module and there's no reverse on that.
 

15Limited

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That is not true. It CAN be easily reversible and if you don't wander too far off the beaten track it will be, BUT it's also quite easy to brick a module and there's no reverse on that.
It is possible to brick a module, but it’s not very common. I’ve made hundreds of changes in Explorers, Expeditions, and Mustangs with zero issues (knock on wood).

Maybe you’ve bricked one and had a bad experience?

The FORScan change is much cheaper than the gadget shown and the video says it only applies to F-150?
 
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RhinoQuartz

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It is possible to brick a module, but it’s not very common. I’ve made hundreds of changes in Explorers, Expeditions, and Mustangs with zero issues (knock on wood).

Maybe you’ve bricked one and had a bad experience?

The FORScan change is much cheaper than the gadget shown and the video says it only applies to F-150?
I was just pointing that it's very possible to do and that Forscan isn't some easy magic wand. I haven't yet, although I'm sure it's in my future somewhere.
 

AdrenalineJunky

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Annoying feature. I will be looking to permanently disable it. It would be nice if in fact it could be turned on for lengthy stop and go traffic....not the other way around.
 

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OK so to clear up a few things that are internet mythos and other not quite right hoods about the new engines, start stop and batteries.

1) AGm batteries are not weak and they aren't old technology. It is not the flooded battery of the 80's and 90's. AGM batteries became standard on most US cars in the 2000's. All cars with start stop use a Battery monitoring system (most current gen explorers have this now) and monitors state of charge of the battery such as to keep it in safe operation condition.

2) MOst if not all start stop systems (included those used by Ford) use the engines angle position sensors (cam and crank) to gage when to cut off - so as to have the easiest, quickest restart. Most but not all use a higher duty cycle starter also.

3) with direct injection the engines are easier to start also. This isn't widely discussed but it's been show that the DI gas mill often starts quicker than it's MPI counterpart.

4) oil system changes that keep oil pressure in some parts of the engine while off. ANd new oil's (last 15 years or so) that have better film cling that reduces start drag for those restarts and your cold starts.


When you start a start stop car - and some of the systems are different than others. But Ford's system is tied to the brake release. such that as soon as your foot comes off the brake the start sequence is put in. AND if you are stops, lift and then reapply the brake the engine will cut on and stay on. The few times I've been in a intersection where I was needing a quick jump into traffic. I just lift and rebrake to cut the motor back on.

It takes just a little while to get used to - and then you notice your city mpg's. well worth it. And no I'm not worried about my starter dying early or extra wear on the engine. OH and in the summer - it never shuts off due to keeping the AC on. At least on my commute it doesn't shut off.
 

trysixty

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If the socialists like it and real Americans don’t want it , Ford should have a permanent delete on it. Short of that I spoke with 4DTech and they will have a permanent delete module for it after 30 days for ‘20 . If you can’t stand the unsafe nature of the auto start/stop for that long, buy a 7 pin trailer tester for $10 and shove it in and cover up with trailer rear cover.
 
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If the socialists like it and real Americans don’t want it , Ford should have a permanent delete on it. Short of that I spoke with 4DTech and they will have a permanent delete module for it after 30 days for ‘20 . If you can’t stand the unsafe nature of the auto start/stop for that long, buy a 7 pin trailer tester for $10 and shove it in and cover up with trailer rear cover.
Or disable it with forscan for free.
 

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