Auto Start-Stop Technology

[funwithbono]

Ford is automatically deleting “dealer-inventory” stop-start and rear climate controls on all explorer vehicles do to the chip shortage. If you didn’t pay for it up front or it’s ommited from the line-sheet all together, then it won’t be an automatic install on the XLT or Limited Trim. If you ordered the vehicle with this option, they will add it free of charge at a later date if it wasn’t shipped with the option. If the option is able to be added, you should see a plastic plug in the center console where the stop-start can be switched off manually. If it’s not there, your XLT is not pre-wired for the system so there will be a considerable up-charge. For the platinum and king ranch trim, (again, only if ordered) they will include the start stop but will omit the rear climate controls (more plastic plugs on back side of center console) only but will install the parts free of charge at a later date (they’re saying within a year from delivery). The rear climate control will still be fully functional, but will controlled only by the driver (or lcd) display up front!

 

[keptman]

A measly $71.28 per year extra.

Not considering price fluctuations.
Just the price of a starter replacement alone doesn't justify those system.
Talking with a friend that runs his own repair shop. He has told me the price of starters and alternators have about tripled since 2019.
We were talking about freon he said he had to get a new 30lb bottle. Its up to over 350$. He said that when he got his last one he could of bought 3 at that price. Which was last year.
So if you save 80$ or even 150$ a year in full. Over 3 years time that would be 240-450$.
So if you take your car to a shop for a starter replacement it could run you about twice that.

I don't care for the system. In some driving situations I find it to be unsafe. Could be from what I was taught or just were I learned to drive. Just saying.

 

[peterk9]

.............................................................
Just the price of a starter replacement alone doesn't justify those system.
...............................................................

The starter should handle about 500,000 starts in its lifetime.

Peter

 

[J_C]

I've had two F 150 trucks that had the auto/start stop feature and never had an issue with the batteries or starters going out. Frankly, that is a myth unless you have actual numbers to show what percentage of starters and batteries are worn out by the feature. And yes, my mind must be a calculator since that is the only method I use for tracking mpg.

I'd expect that 100% of starters and batteries are worn out faster by the feature, if using same starter or battery. How could it not wear them out faster, using them ~dozens of times more often? Granted, much easier to start a warmed up vehicle with peak battery charge due to just running a moment ago, but is still more wear than not stopping and starting.

It would not be surprising if you aren't seeing that yet on a 2019.

 

[peterk9]

I don't think the battery is an item to worry about seeing the rate that they have been changed/replaced over the years on vehicles without the feature.

Peter

 

[J_C]

The starter should handle about 500,000 starts in its lifetime.

Peter

That # seems more than a little too high to be believable. I've also seen it suggested the old non-stop/start starters last 50K cycles but even at 4 starts a day that's over 34 years. I've replaced starters more often than once every 34 vehicle-years.

 

[blwnsmoke]

I'd expect that 100% of starters and batteries are worn out faster by the feature, if using same starter or battery. How could it not wear them out faster, using them ~dozens of times more often? Granted, much easier to start a warmed up vehicle with peak battery charge due to just running a moment ago, but is still more wear than not stopping and starting.

It would not be surprising if you aren't seeing that yet on a 2019.

There is barely any crank from the auto start/stop. On top of that, Ford puts in a more robust started because of the feature

 

[J_C]

^ That's the claim, better starter, but will it pan out in as long a lifespan, or just last past the warranty period? We really don't know but historically, time takes its tolls on parts, lube dries up if nothing else, and adding on more and more *features* tends to make repair costs go up, including higher price for a super-starter.

 

[MikeHTally]

There is barely any crank from the auto start/stop. On top of that, Ford puts in a more robust started because of the feature

And I have some ocean-front property in eastern Wyoming for sale. If Ford (or any U.S. manufacturer) was interested in getting it right the first time, there wouldn't be recall after recall for something they should have learned long ago. They build it to reach 36,000 miles. After that, you're on your own.

 

[HacksawMark]

Not considering price fluctuations.
Just the price of a starter replacement alone doesn't justify those system.
Talking with a friend that runs his own repair shop. He has told me the price of starters and alternators have about tripled since 2019.
We were talking about freon he said he had to get a new 30lb bottle. Its up to over 350$. He said that when he got his last one he could of bought 3 at that price. Which was last year.
So if you save 80$ or even 150$ a year in full. Over 3 years time that would be 240-450$.
So if you take your car to a shop for a starter replacement it could run you about twice that.

I don't care for the system. In some driving situations I find it to be unsafe. Could be from what I was taught or just were I learned to drive. Just saying.

IF you take your for a starter replacement. Again, it's a myth that the auto start stop feature shortens the life of the starter. There is no documented evidence proving otherwise. As for being unsafe, by the time you take your foot off the brake pedal and move over to the gas pedal, the engine is always running. If it was an unsafe feature, the NHTSA would not allow it to be sold.

 

[MikeHTally]

IF you take your for a starter replacement. Again, it's a myth that the auto start stop feature shortens the life of the starter. There is no documented evidence proving otherwise. As for being unsafe, by the time you take your foot off the brake pedal and move over to the gas pedal, the engine is always running. If it was an unsafe feature, the NHTSA would not allow it to be sold.

Any time a mechanical gizmo is used, its life is shortened. No myth there. As for documented evidence, just wait. It stands to reason that if you use the starter fifty times a day, vs ten times, it'll fail sooner.

 

[HacksawMark]

^ That's the claim, better starter, but will it pan out in as long a lifespan, or just last past the warranty period? We really don't know but historically, time takes its tolls on parts, lube dries up if nothing else, and adding on more and more *features* tends to make repair costs go up, including higher price for a super-starter.

And I have some ocean-front property in eastern Wyoming for sale. If Ford (or any U.S. manufacturer) was interested in getting it right the first time, there wouldn't be recall after recall for something they should have learned long ago. They build it to reach 36,000 miles. After that, you're on your own.

Geez, ask a simple question and it turns into a a discussion similar to an oil thread.

 

[Rick]

Myth-busting: Does stop-start damage your engine? | Practical Motoring

Plenty of people will tell you what they like and don’t like about stop-start systems. But, does stop-start damage your engine?

practicalmotoring.com.au

Peter

Nothing scientific there. No engine tear downs. They need to run two identical engines for a prolonged period on a dyno. One engine gets shut off a few times a day, the other gets shut off more often to simulate stop and go traffic.

I am more concerned about wear of internal components than the starter or battery. Each time the engine stops oil pressure goes to zero. When automatically restarting from the press of the accelerator, there is little time for pressure to build before a load is put on the engine. That's my concern.

 

[peterk9]

That # seems more than a little too high to be believable. I've also seen it suggested the old non-stop/start starters last 50K cycles but even at 4 starts a day that's over 34 years. I've replaced starters more often than once every 34 vehicle-years.

Unlike when using the ignition switch/button, I don't hear any cranking when the engine starts up with this feature.

Just went through 29 pages of posts on "starter" and found perhaps a half dozen posts about replacing the starter and some of those were on 2016 and 2017 models.

All in all, as Shakespeare said, this worry is "much ado about nothing"

Peter.

 

[blwnsmoke]

And I have some ocean-front property in eastern Wyoming for sale. If Ford (or any U.S. manufacturer) was interested in getting it right the first time, there wouldn't be recall after recall for something they should have learned long ago. They build it to reach 36,000 miles. After that, you're on your own.

Ah yes, so the manufacturers prefer to do multiple multi million dollar recalls all the time. Yes, definitely good business.

Funny you say they build them to reach 36k yet Ford has 50k powertrain warrantees, lincoln has 50k b2b warranties and 70k powertrain.

Oh and not interested in Wyoming lake front.

 

[MikeHTally]

Reminds me of the "If you don't have time to do it right, where do you find the time to do it over?". 50K power train, yes. Starters, no. And for what Lincoln charges, I guess they can afford to go back over it before they ship.

Aw, man. I was looking forward to the escrow payment

 

[MikeHTally]

Nothing scientific there. No engine tear downs. They need to run two identical engines for a prolonged period on a dyno. One engine gets shut off a few times a day, the other gets shut off more often to simulate stop and go traffic.

I am more concerned about wear of internal components than the starter or battery. Each time the engine stops oil pressure goes to zero. When automatically restarting from the press of the accelerator, there is little time for pressure to build before a load is put on the engine. That's my concern.

The oil hasn't had time to drain back to the pan. It's still gathered around the valve train and bearings. Even a long red wouldn't be enough time for serious drain-back.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Reminds me of the "If you don't have time to do it right, where do you find the time to do it over?". 50K power train, yes. Starters, no. And for what Lincoln charges, I guess they can afford to go back over it before they ship.

Aw, man. I was looking forward to the escrow payment

Interesting, so now you changed from they build it (vehicle) to last 36k to now talking about only starters lasting to 36k. Can't tell you the last time I've ever known someone that had to replace their starter in the 25 years I've been driving.

And yes I'm aware auto start/stop doesn't go back 25 years. Even when it came out, I don't know one person that has. Sure one here and there will go but nothing I'd ever be concerned about.

 

[peterk9]

^^ I'm with you. I am definitely not concerned about it since half the time it doesn't 'kick' in any way.

Peter

 

[MikeHTally]

Interesting, so now you changed from they build it (vehicle) to last 36k to now talking about only starters lasting to 36k. Can't tell you the last time I've ever known someone that had to replace their starter in the 25 years I've been driving.

And yes I'm aware auto start/stop doesn't go back 25 years. Even when it came out, I don't know one person that has. Sure one here and there will go but nothing I'd ever be concerned about.

Don't know where I said that's a change. All I said was the warranty is gone on the starter at 36K. That means after 36K, the owner is on the hook for anything not internally lubricated.

I've replaced four starters, four or five alternators, two water pumps and a few other goodies in my 50+ years of driving. The starters were on a '66 Pontiac LeMans, a '95 Dodge Wagon, '01 Dodge Ram and an '02 Toyota Camry. By far the hardest was the Pontiac. That coffee can must weigh over 20#. Nearly took my face off when the last bolt came out.