AWD Front driveshaft removal. | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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AWD Front driveshaft removal.

coonerboy

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Joined
May 19, 2009
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City, State
Herkimer, NY
Year, Model & Trim Level
98 Explorer XLT 4wd V8
Hi. I'm a newbie, however I have spent alot of time reviewing threads and searching, and I have to say this site is great! I purchased a '98 Explorer V8 AWD in May. I really like the vehicle, however the fuel economy is probably the lowest of any vehicle that I have ever owned. I record my fuel purchases on fuel economy.gov and over 3 months i have an average of 16mpg. Lowest has been 10-11 and recently I got 18.5mpg in alot of city driving. Not sure if this was a fluke, but this occured after removing the front driveshaft, along with removing the transfer case skid plate and fuel tank skid plate for weight savings.

The following tankful I got a little over 16mpg wich was with mostly highway driving. Now I have read the posts about the creep with the driveshaft removed, so I am aware of the saftey aspects with setting the parking brake. My concern is with burning up the viscous coupling in the TC. After driving about 500 miles with the front shaft removed, today I reinstalled it. I have noticed no binding or wheel hop that would be attributed to a seized VC. The only thing I noticed was the slightly heavier steering that was there before i removed the shaft.(removing the front driveshaft does lighten up the front steering some, and I think this could be what gave me the mpg increase in driving around town)

My question is, has anyone driven long term with the front driveshaft removed and reinstalled it, say for winter and experienced any problems with their transfer case? As a side note, my transfer case was replaced under warranty a couple weeks after I purchased the Explorer due to a noise. Apparently the chain was stretched out.

Here are a couple of pics of my Ex. Thank You.
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NEVER, NEVER (did I mention NEVER) leave the front driveshaft out of an AWD 2nd gen explorer. It will roll away, even if it's in park. You said you've done tons of searching and reading on here. Apparently not enough. There are a bunch of posts about this issue, and warning against it. Search and read some more.

No, you I doubt you would have hurt the VC this way. That kind of damage occurs with the Auto 4wd transfer case, when people do the "brown wire mod" and leave their front driveshaft connected. Particularly with aggressive driving (burnouts,donuts,etc.) this will cause fluid shear and heat buildup, which will damage the T-case.

Your mileage sounds about right for a V8 w/ AWD. It is what it is. While disconnecting your frnt drvshaft will improve front tire wear and fuel economy a bit, it's a serious safety issue, and simply shouldn't be done.
 






He said he was setting the parking (emergency) brake when parking. And as long as it's in good working order it will keep the explorer/mountaineer from rolling. And while it's not a recommended practice it's not really hurting anything. There is a chance that your viscous coupler could be damaged if the driveshaft is left out for long periods of time, but I don't recall ever reading about it actually happening. I put over 10k miles on my last mountaineer without the front driveshaft and had no problems. But that doesn't mean you won't, so do it at your own risk.
 






He said he was setting the parking (emergency) brake when parking. And as long as it's in good working order it will keep the explorer/mountaineer from rolling. And while it's not a recommended practice it's not really hurting anything. There is a chance that your viscous coupler could be damaged if the driveshaft is left out for long periods of time, but I don't recall ever reading about it actually happening. I put over 10k miles on my last mountaineer without the front driveshaft and had no problems. But that doesn't mean you won't, so do it at your own risk.

...and Explorers never have parking brake issues? (insert sarcasm here):rolleyes:

I maintain that it IS a serious safety issue. If the parking brake fails (def. been known to happen) or , let's say someone borrows his truck and doesn;t use the parking brake ( I know many people who refuse to use it, and yes I yell at them):BANG. Some innocent bystander or their vehicle is going to get hit by his runaway truck.
If there were to be a serious accident, and it was found out that he had removed the fornt driveshaft???? Can you say liability? If you really want 2wd that bad, then sell the AWD and buy a 2wd or at least a part-time 4x4.

As for the VC, I don't see how it could be damaged with the driveshaft removed. There is no resistance on the output end of, with no shaft to turn it. My understanding of the possible damages are as I sated previously, in Auto 4wd trucks w/ brown wire mod, since the front shaft would still be turning, possibly at much different speeds from the "rear" portion of the VC. Unless of course, you did a brown wire mod AND pulled the front shaft out of a Auto-4X4 truck. (I actually have an idea for a quick disconnect product for this situation. If/When I have the money for development, I might try to make and sell some)

Anyway, again. Please don't do it!

EDIT: Oops. I should mention that I did not see the part about him already knowing about the "creep issue", therefor I hereby retract my "go search and read more" rant. However, the rest of my opinion still stands.
 






I'm seriously not trying to be an ass, just correct some misinformation.

For the v8 transfer case, the VC could become seized without the front drive shaft in place. Under normal driving the coupler "slips" to allow the front and rear tires to spin at different speeds, say around a corner. Without that slipping the coupler never moves, and there is the possibility that it would seize up and when you put the front driveshaft back in it would cause a bind in the drive train, possibly breaking lots of expensive parts.

For the e-brake, if properly maintained there is little chance of it failing. Notice I say properly, most are not on cars with automatic transmissions. There is probably just as much chance of the parking as there is the parking prawl in the transmission failing.

Now onto the v6 transmission, it does not have a viscous coupler in it. It uses a clutch based system to engage 4wd. The problem with the brown wire mod stems from the two clutches being so close together all the time. Even with the brown wire mod done, the clutches can still come into contact. So while doing a burnout/donuts the rear clutch is spinning really fast and the front one isn't spinning at all, so when they come into contact bad things happen. With the front driveshaft removed damage would be minimized since the front clutch would be allowed to spin if it came into contact with the rear, instead of being held in place by the drive shaft and front tires.
 






I'm seriously not trying to be an ass, just correct some misinformation.

For the v8 transfer case, the VC could become seized without the front drive shaft in place. Under normal driving the coupler "slips" to allow the front and rear tires to spin at different speeds, say around a corner. Without that slipping the coupler never moves, and there is the possibility that it would seize up and when you put the front driveshaft back in it would cause a bind in the drive train, possibly breaking lots of expensive parts.

For the e-brake, if properly maintained there is little chance of it failing. Notice I say properly, most are not on cars with automatic transmissions. There is probably just as much chance of the parking as there is the parking prawl in the transmission failing.

Now onto the v6 transmission, it does not have a viscous coupler in it. It uses a clutch based system to engage 4wd. The problem with the brown wire mod stems from the two clutches being so close together all the time. Even with the brown wire mod done, the clutches can still come into contact. So while doing a burnout/donuts the rear clutch is spinning really fast and the front one isn't spinning at all, so when they come into contact bad things happen. With the front driveshaft removed damage would be minimized since the front clutch would be allowed to spin if it came into contact with the rear, instead of being held in place by the drive shaft and front tires.

You have a good point on the V8 VC. I didn' think of it that way. So double bad on the no driveshaft then.

Well, actually, if you don't use the e-brake, then the parking pawl is more likely to fail, and in any case, they each act as a back up to the other, when both are used. Yes, you are right. When properly maintained, the e-brake isn't to likely to fail, at least not completely. That said, 1.) it's pretty common for cables to stretch and not get readjusted, thereby producing seriously reduced clamping force. What appears to be fine on level ground could easily result in a run-away on a hill. Also, as you said, many times these systems aren't properly maintained. I've owned (3) 2nd gens and worked on a friends '02 in the last couple years, as well as many other vehicles. Every one of the above Explorers had completely non-functioning e-brakes when I got them/worked on them. On all of them, the e-brake shoes had actually fallen apart. Only one had "worn" linings. On the rest, otherwise good friction material had come unglued from the shoes. Several shops have told me they see it all the time on Explorers. Additionally, I've had many, many other vehicles. Nearly everyone has needed brakes when I got them. Brakes and tires are prob. the most ignored maintenance item on a car. Given there importance, it's a little scary.

Again, you are completely correct on the V6 Auto-4wd having a clutch. I knew that. Don't know why I said VC. It's been a bad, very stressful couple of weeks. Like I said, I have an idea for a quick disconnect + brown wire mod to save the TC clutch and reduce parasitic drivetrain loss (better mpg), but I don't have the money to play right now. From what I read on here today, the new sport-tracs couls also benefit from this arrangement too, no?

Anyway, hope no one took any offense. Just having a friendly "discussion" :)
 






I wouldn't think removing the front driveshaft on a v6 would do a whole lot to reduce drag since the front drivetrain is still spinning like it always does. I never even noticed any difference with either of my v8 mountaineers and at least with those all of the power was being sent to the back, instead of being split between front and back. I didn't even notice any difference with the front diff and cv axles removed, maybe half a mpg at most.
 






I wouldn't think removing the front driveshaft on a v6 would do a whole lot to reduce drag since the front drivetrain is still spinning like it always does. I never even noticed any difference with either of my v8 mountaineers and at least with those all of the power was being sent to the back, instead of being split between front and back.

Yeah but my plan is a quick disconnect for the cv axles, so the front diff/drive shaft isn't spinning. It's all still there, just not turning with the front wheels. Prob not a huge gain, but it's gotta be worth something. Turning gears thru 75w140 has got to have a measurable effect on mpg. Especially in the cold, when it gets thick. The idea I have should be easy enough that you could disconnect them on nice winter days too.

Of course, this could just be accomplished with a '95-'96 front diff setup, but that has a number of complications.
 






I'm not sure what exactly you have planned, but a disconnect would have to go in the middle of the cv axle. And I don't see any way that that would work. Well without being extremely complicated and expensive. Oh and the front axle requires 75-90, not 75-140.
 






I'm not sure what exactly you have planned, but a disconnect would have to go in the middle of the cv axle. And I don't see any way that that would work. Well without being extremely complicated and expensive. Oh and the front axle requires 75-90, not 75-140.

I just crawled under one of my Explorers. It would be a tighter fit then I had hoped, but still doable. It might require a very slight relocation of the lower shock mount, and it prob. wouldn't be quite as "quick" as I had hoped. But still, when I have the money to waste a cv axle or two and pay for machining, I'm gonna try it. I hate being broke and unemployed! It's so stifeling to my creative genius! :D
 






I just crawled under one of my Explorers. It would be a tighter fit then I had hoped, but still doable. It might require a very slight relocation of the lower shock mount, and it prob. wouldn't be quite as "quick" as I had hoped. But still, when I have the money to waste a cv axle or two and pay for machining, I'm gonna try it. I hate being broke and unemployed! It's so stifeling to my creative genius! :D

Lol, I'm in the same broke and unemployed boat. Just remember both ends of the cv have to stay in place to keep fluid in the diff and the bearings together. Then you have to figure out how to keep the halves from spinning around and hitting things. Installing a vacuum disconnect front diff would be a much better solution if you could figure it out. It's impossible on the v8's without a superlift due to oil pan clearance issues. I wouldn't think that would be a problem with the ohv v6 though. And I'm not sure about the sohc motor.

There is always the stub shaft option too, it's quick and dirty but gets the job done. That's how I've been driving around until I swap to 2wd front spindles. Which will hopefully be in 2 weeks:D I've also got a spare awd transfer case that I'll be trying to turn into a dummy case until i can afford/find a 2wd 4r70w.
 






Wow Eric, I was thinking of doing the same thing. Running 2wd spindles and gutting an AWD t-case.........all of this until I can afford a manual trans conversion. heh I am not sure where to get 2wd spindles though. 2wd X's are nonexistent in the yards around here.

I will say this though. Driving a 2wd V8 explorer in the wet can get pretty wild. Right after I rebuilt my trac-lok diff it was pretty stiff. I had the front shaft out and it was my first time driving in the rain with 2wd and that diff. With my old open diff, one tire would just spin and I wouldn't go anywhere. Well I was making a left from a stop sign and ended up doing a complete 180 in the middle of the intersection since it broke loose half way through the turn.

Anyway, on topic. I never really noticed a mileage change. It was minor if any. I also did not experience any damage, but did not drive without it for too long.
 






lol, yeah it can be interesting. I'm getting mine from another member, we're going to meet up and swap parts should be a fun day. You could try going through carpart.com or a similar site, you could probably find some junkyards in the south with plenty of them on hand. But if your buying you should really look for 2wd sport trac ones so you can get the bigger rotors too. They use the same calipers, just use a 12" rotor, instead of 11". And stay tuned for the dummy case thread. I've got an extra case sitting here that I pulled out of my rolled mounty this last weekend and should be tearing into it in the next few days.
 






Wow Eric, I was thinking of doing the same thing. Running 2wd spindles and gutting an AWD t-case.........all of this until I can afford a manual trans conversion. heh I am not sure where to get 2wd spindles though. 2wd X's are nonexistent in the yards around here.

I will say this though. Driving a 2wd V8 explorer in the wet can get pretty wild. Right after I rebuilt my trac-lok diff it was pretty stiff. I had the front shaft out and it was my first time driving in the rain with 2wd and that diff. With my old open diff, one tire would just spin and I wouldn't go anywhere. Well I was making a left from a stop sign and ended up doing a complete 180 in the middle of the intersection since it broke loose half way through the turn.

Anyway, on topic. I never really noticed a mileage change. It was minor if any. I also did not experience any damage, but did not drive without it for too long.

As was said earlier, you prob. didn't gain much because you were still turning the cv's and the diff gears. I'll bet that there will be a difference w/o them.

lol, yeah it can be interesting. I'm getting mine from another member, we're going to meet up and swap parts should be a fun day. You could try going through carpart.com or a similar site, you could probably find some junkyards in the south with plenty of them on hand. But if your buying you should really look for 2wd sport trac ones so you can get the bigger rotors too. They use the same calipers, just use a 12" rotor, instead of 11". And stay tuned for the dummy case thread. I've got an extra case sitting here that I pulled out of my rolled mounty this last weekend and should be tearing into it in the next few days.

Umm, guys. A couple of thoughts here, and correct me if I'm wrong:

1.) Why gut a perfectly good AWD case? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell it to someone who can use it, and then use the money to buy the 2wd trans that you want?
2.) What about Ranger spindles? There's bound to be more 2wd Rangers in the junkyard then explorers. Will they work?
3.) Why bother changing the spindles at all, unless you're going for the sport-trac brake upgrade? Just remove your front diff/driveshaft/etc. and cut the left over cv'c so you can leave the stub in the hub? Yeah, eventually you'll need new hubs, and they are more expensive than 2wd wheel bearings, but you'll save the initial expense and trouble of tracking down 2wd spindles. It'll also be easier for you or a future owner to go back to 4wd/AWD later. Plus, without the load of driving/being driven by the front drivetrain, the hubs might last longer than usual anyway. Use what you've already got!
 






Let me answer by number
1. an awd transfer case isn't worth much money, and I happen to have an extra sitting around, so this mod would cost me very little money, new seals, fluid, etc. I can swap it in in an hour or two. And could be a fun project that I haven't seen attempted before. Now a 2wd transmission would be pretty hard to find in Kansas which would mean either driving some distance to get one, or paying a lot of money to get it shipped in. After all that expense I end up with a transmission that I know nothing about and could quite possibly be a bad unit, doa or on it's last legs. It would also take me the better part of a weekend to swap in. The dummy case is just a temporary thing that probably won't be there for more than a year or two. While I focus on the motor, and figure out what I want for a transmission, 2wd 4r70w that's been beefed up a bit, or some yet to be determined manual.

2. I'm not sure about ranger spindles, they may work and not sure about what size brakes they use.

3. The 2wd spindles are probably going to be lighter. The bearings will be much cheaper to replace, allowing me to do it more often and keep everything spinning as easily as possible. Not having the hub and cv stub makes for less rotational mass which is always a good thing. And as far as the cost of the spindles themselves I'm trading them for my set of 4wd/awd spindles so there isn't any initial cost involved other than meeting a forum member and getting in some quality wrenching time. After the motor that I plan on putting in it goes in there will be no reason to go back to awd/2wd it will be a fast street truck that would be worthless offroad, and would probably give me trouble in snow even with the awd. And I highly doubt there will ever be a next owner unless they want to throw a VERY big pile of money my way. And honestly how many people would even have a clue about converting a 2wd back to awd.
 






Yeah but my plan is a quick disconnect for the cv axles, so the front diff/drive shaft isn't spinning. It's all still there, just not turning with the front wheels. Prob not a huge gain, but it's gotta be worth something. Turning gears thru 75w140 has got to have a measurable effect on mpg. Especially in the cold, when it gets thick. The idea I have should be easy enough that you could disconnect them on nice winter days too.

Of course, this could just be accomplished with a '95-'96 front diff setup, but that has a number of complications.

Part of the reason they did away with the setup is that, thanks to the design of the transfer case, the front axle components tend to spin anyways. The drag from the clutches inside the transfer case (the same ones that burn up from tire-roasting wheel spins) still make the front end turn. They simplified it, doing away with the CAD in the process.

Oh and the front axle requires 75-90, not 75-140.

Not always. It depends on the year. Ford changed their front axle gear lube recommendation at least four times over the course of the 95-01 run, depending on model and year. There is no generalization. Consult your manual or the axle tag for accurate information.

_______________________________________________________________________________

edit: To address the original post, removing the front driveshaft from the AWD case can and does result in VC failures. Without the front driveshaft/drivetrain in place to resist the movement, the VC can and does slip under acceleration. The creeping in park is the exact same phenomenon that occurs when accelerating. The forces on the t-case are exactly the same.

Don't believe me? Pull the front shaft out, put it on the ground, and mark the bottom of both the front and rear t-case outputs. Then, without moving the vehicle, put the vehicle in drive and brake-torque it without letting the wheels spin. Not a lot of pressure is needed before the front output will begin to turn.
 






Part of the reason they did away with the setup is that, thanks to the design of the transfer case, the front axle components tend to spin anyways. The drag from the clutches inside the transfer case (the same ones that burn up from tire-roasting wheel spins) still make the front end turn. They simplified it, doing away with the CAD in the process.



Not always. It depends on the year. Ford changed their front axle gear lube recommendation at least four times over the course of the 95-01 run, depending on model and year. There is no generalization. Consult your manual or the axle tag for accurate information.

_______________________________________________________________________________

edit: To address the original post, removing the front driveshaft from the AWD case can and does result in VC failures. Without the front driveshaft/drivetrain in place to resist the movement, the VC can and does slip under acceleration. The creeping in park is the exact same phenomenon that occurs when accelerating. The forces on the t-case are exactly the same.

Don't believe me? Pull the front shaft out, put it on the ground, and mark the bottom of both the front and rear t-case outputs. Then, without moving the vehicle, put the vehicle in drive and brake-torque it without letting the wheels spin. Not a lot of pressure is needed before the front output will begin to turn.

Thanks for chimin' in GI. Your previous posts on this subject are the reason I reinstalled my driveshaft yesterday. However i'm not sure i agree with you on every point.

While i agree with you that the VC is slipping with the front shaft removed, I am up in the air as to if this can damage the VC. My thinkin is that while it is slipping, or a better term may be "engaging" the front output, there is very little torque being applied to that front output. The only torque being applied would be to turn the front output components in the transfer case. This is practically nothing compared to driving the entire front drivetrain plus the resistance of the front tires say if you were stuck in snow or mud.

I realize this debate could go on forever with those of us debating both sides. Any Borg -Warner engineers use this forum?
 






Thanks for chimin' in GI. Your previous posts on this subject are the reason I reinstalled my driveshaft yesterday. However i'm not sure i agree with you on every point.

While i agree with you that the VC is slipping with the front shaft removed, I am up in the air as to if this can damage the VC. My thinkin is that while it is slipping, or a better term may be "engaging" the front output, there is very little torque being applied to that front output. The only torque being applied would be to turn the front output components in the transfer case. This is practically nothing compared to driving the entire front drivetrain plus the resistance of the front tires say if you were stuck in snow or mud.

I realize this debate could go on forever with those of us debating both sides. Any Borg -Warner engineers use this forum?

I understand what you're saying... The key is in how the VC works internally... It's set up to allow limited slippage between the front and rear when cornering, but not unlimited slippage...

The closest analogy I can come up with is the clutches in a limted slip diff. If you round a corner, the clutches slip, allowing one tire to roll farther than the other. No harm done. However, if you unload the rear axle, hold one tire stationary, then apply power and let the other one spin, yes, there is some resistance, but you can cook the clutches quite easily.

The VC is not designed to allow that much relative motion between the front and rear. It uses some sort of fluid (hence the term viscous) to limit the speed differential between the front and rear outputs. Not limiting the amount of slippage (i.e. when driving straight ahead, there is no front/rear speed differential) causes the fluid to get hot, as well as damages the internals. There have been several people on here over the years that have tried it without the shaft for a while, then discovered when they reinstalled the front shaft that at some point in time, the VC had locked-up. If it was fine before removing the shaft, then not fine after driving it like that for some time, what's the logical cause?

So, I understand what you're saying about there being a lack of resistance on the front shaft... But it's not the resistance (or lack thereof) that causes the wear. Make more sense?

Clear as mud now, yes? ;)
 






I can tell you that just having the driveshaft removed makes almost no difference as far as performance goes, I was running the same times at the track with and without. Showing that without it all of the power is going to the rear wheels except for a very small fraction being used to spin the chain and the front componets of the case.
 



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Im still kind of confused, is it bad to use the truck without the front drive shaft? i have the front and rear part of the shaft still connected to the diff/tcase. and i like the way the truck is now. (how to you get the rest of the shaft off the tcase?? i have a 97 4.0 sohc awd 4405 tcase
 






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