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Bad lifter racket but none look bad.

1993Saturn

Well-Known Member
Joined
November 21, 2008
Messages
160
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City, State
Redmond, OR
Year, Model & Trim Level
94 4x4
93, 99 Bauer 4x4
I have had a ticking noise that has slowly gotten worse to the point now it can get loud and can then quiet down some. Mechanics stethoscope put it's location in the head. But when I pulled the valve covers, none of the rockers are sloppy indicating a collapsed lifter. Can a bad one not be so obvious? AND I also noticed the right head has all clean pushrod, but the driver's side pushrods have some carbon buildup on them. Why would that be?
 



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Yes, one can be bad and not obvious. If the noisy valve was compressed, even a little bit at that point, you wouldn't be able to tell. And even then, if you went through the trouble of rotating the crank to get each cylinder at TDC before power stroke, lifters can leak and in a non-running state, you may find several that seem sloppy but are ok. I do not know a good diagnostic to find one particular lifter, but I don't have a lot of experience with this in particular, just general engine theory.

I once saw someone do something that I thought was clever. He had an extra valve cover with a cutout across the top so he could get to the rockers with the engine running and not have oil going everywhere. This was a small block chevy though, and it had some variation of hydraulic lifters where there was still an adjustment. I don't think that applies to the Exp engine.

In the timeframe where you saw it get worse, was there an oil change in there, or is it the same oil over time? Thin oil makes lifter noise worse. Cold weather getting warmer? Engine cold/warm?

Which one is almost academic. To fix it, you will need a new rack of rocker arms, etc... there are threads and some comments on different suppliers, somewhere on this forum.

Clean vs crusty pushrods... someone did some work on that side at some point. That would be my first guess too. I can think of other things, but they are much less likely.
 






Check your oil pressure
Carbon buildup that you can see = more carbon build up you cannot.
Consider running some detergents in the engine, like a couple of quarts of diesel oil or a quart of ATF or even just run Mobil one full synthetic for a few oil changes.......
A small piece of carbon can plug the lifter hole and stop it from fully pumping up
The detergents in the diesel oil or mobil one will break up the carbon where it can be trapped by the filter and removed.

A weak oil pump can also cause all sorts of valve clatter on the ohv, so a oil pressure check is a good idea
 






Some exhaust leaks that are located between the exhaust manifold and cylinder head make a "tik" noise similar to valve train noise, these "tiks" come and go as the engine is warmed up or cools down, make sure you are not mistaking an exhaust leak for valve-train noise, I have see it done before. Another source of "tiks" that can be overlooked are worn valve guides, to check for worn valve guides the rocker arm needs to be removed, and the valve stem rocked back and forth by hand, just grab the retainer by hand and try to move, if any movement at all if detected, it can make noise, usually worse when warmed up.
 






Wow. Not a simple project for sure. I don't have the bucks to replace all the lifters, rocker arms and push rods. I'm already replacing the heads because there was a bad leaking freeze plug and the coolant rusted out the hole making it unsealable. Decided to do both heads. Expected just one lifter to be bad since that was all I heard, so I got a cylinder set of lifters/rocker arms/pushrods. I'l check flatness of exhaust manifold. I've gotten the pan out before without having to pull engine, so replacing oil pump will be down the road a bit. Some time ago I added a real oil pressure gauge and the pressure starts out at 50 then drops down to around 6, but the noise is there at either pressure, so maybe it isn't the pump?
 






AND I also noticed the right head has all clean pushrod, but the driver's side pushrods have some carbon buildup on them. Why would that be?

Clean vs crusty pushrods... someone did some work on that side at some point. That would be my first guess too. I can think of other things, but they are much less likely.

If someone did some work on the clean lifter side (Rt), then why is the corresponding (Rt) half of the valley gasket that was attached to that head also fairly clean front and back but the crusty head side (L) has the same amount of junk on the valley gasket front and back that is attached to that head. Could it be that the intake manifold on the (L) side had a failed gasket and it let crud blow by?
 






Carbon buildup can cause your lifter noises
6psi of oil pressure is very low
 






Can the carbon buildup cause the low oil pressure? If so, what could I do to rectify the situation?
 






Low oil pressure? First check for sludge in the bottom of the oil pan!
 






Never gotten sludge when draining the oil, but I suppose it would likely stay behind. Took the heads off. There were oilways plugged up coming from the block to the head. The oldest head had the valves sinking into the rockers. One of them about 1/16"+ and another 1/8". That would be the noise that I had been hearing?
 






the valve was punching through the rocker arm? Yes that will make noise

Your engine has excessive carbon deposits I posted earlier how to deal with this. You need to run some detergents through your crankcase
Diesel oil works nicely.
You can literally fill your engine with diesel oil, let it sit, then drain it. Then fill the crankcase with 3 quarts of regular oil and two quarts of diesel oil....run it like this for a few oil changes. It will begin to break up the carbon and you can drain it out.
Mobil one full synth or a quart of ATF will also work, but not as quickly as the diesel oil (diesel engine oil has lots of detergents inside of it)
 






OK, I'll give that a go and thanks for the info. To kill off the heavy krud buildup in the intake manifold, can I put SeaFoam in the gas, or run a can of it directly into the intake?
 






Putting sea foam in the gas will clean the fuel injectors
Putting it in the air intake will clean the air passages
Putting seafoam in the crankcase with the oil will clean the carbon from the oil passages

I would still prefer to use diesel oil...but there are people who swear by seafoam, marvel mystery oil, and others...

I use seafoam to clean fuel systems and carbs through the intake.

IMO you need something in the crankcase and not jut for a few minutes, you need to run a few oil changes of detergents until the oil pressure comes back above the 6psi!!

I have seen a 5.0 engine with over 250K on them that had 0 oil pressure at idle due to excessive carbon buildup COME BACK TO LIFE after a few thousand miles of driving around with diesel oil instead of conventional...then switch to mobil one and continue to break up the carbon deposits....eventually we had full oil pressure again over 20-30 at idle...that truck is still on the road
 






What weight motor oil? Multi viscosity motor oils never
thicken up when heated.

I never have been a big fan of "cleaning the crud out".
Those deposits stuck to the block etc. are enough to
score and kill bearings when flushed down.

Oil pick-up screens can't be cleaned with the oil pan on
if it has one....
 






What weight motor oil? Multi viscosity motor oils never
thicken up when heated.

...then switch to mobil one and continue to break up the carbon deposits....eventually we had full oil pressure again over 20-30 at idle...that truck is still on the road

Yes, my question as well. What would be the best viscosity of diesel oil to use with the regular engine oil recommended is 5-30. I would do 2 oil changes at 1,500 miles each with half and half (coffee anyone?) then do I switch to Mobil 1 forever or just another couple of oil changes then back to regular after that. Sorry I am trying to get specific, I don't want to mess up at this stage of the game. Thanks for your patience 410Fortune. You are being very helpful. Besides, I was born in Missouri the "Show Me State" and grew up in Texas the "Git-R-Done State". I await your gracious reply, sir. Thank You.
 






You are more then welcome, my passion is these old trucks and giving back for what I have received.

10W-30 diesel oil or 15W-40 will work. Many many many diesel owners run Rotella diesel oil, I don't put my money with shell as quickly as I put my money with Mobil so I run Delvac 15W-40 conventional in my diesels.
My wife and I own 3ea Ford Powerstroke diesels here, all 7.3 turbo diesels. They use 15 quarts of oil and it gets changed every 5000-7500 miles ($$$$). So instead of running full synthetic which would cost me about $125-160 per oil change I run conventional Mobil "delvac" 15-40 in our trucks which cost more like $45-60.
I have been very happy with the price and performance of the mobil oil, big shock, in my lifetime Mobil one has always been the best fluid.
We have a 01 Excursion 7.3, a 2000 E350 7.3 and my shop truck is a 97 F350 4 door 7.3 with intercooler and swamps injection. I love my turbo diesels!

So 10W30 or 15W-40 will work in your engine just fine.
You can run the full 5 quarts of diesel oil in your truck for a full oil change. However since you are doing head gaskets and fighting a carbon buildup issue, I would plan to run a full 5 quarts of diesel oil for a couple of weeks or about 1000 miles....then drain it and change the filter. Do it again... this time go the full 3000 miles and drain, change filter
Do it again! another 3000 mile full oil run using diesel oil
Diesel oil will not hurt your engine it just has WAY more carbon fighting detergents in it than gas oil does.

The reason I say switch to mobil one full synthetic after that is because the mobil is very good and removing carbon and keeping it gone.
I am sure other brands are too, just in my opinion mobil is the best and strongest.
You can switch to whatever oil you would like after that, hopefully the carbon is broken up and whatever is plugging your system is broken up to little bits and flushed out.
I run valvoline full synth in my personal fords simply because Mobil one is another $25 per change and I change my oil at 3000-5000 miles, the valvoline is a bit cheaper.
Motocraft semi synthetic is also a good oil at a good price, much of my family runs that.

While you are in there working on the engine you can fill the crankcase with ATF or diesel oil and I mean FILL the crankcase up to the top of the crank....let it sit in there until you are done with the head gasket job...then drain it out. This will give a nice head start to busting up the chunks of hard carbon that sticks to every passage

I never have been a big fan of "cleaning the crud out".
Those deposits stuck to the block etc. are enough to
score and kill bearings when flushed down.

Oil pick-up screens can't be cleaned with the oil pan on
if it has one....

Well of course not! and I agree
As Gary points out the best method to save your old 4.0 here would be to pull it, strip it down to the short block and remove as much carbon as you can. Clean the oil pan, pickup tube/screen. check the condition of the oil pump and gasket, have a look at the crank bearings, etc......

This is not the situation you are in with the engine in the truck and the heads off. I understand this as I have been there quite a few times myself.
I have opened enough 4.0 and 5.0 engines to know that carbon builds up when engines get hot and the oil is not changed frequently enough.
When we get a low oil pressure situation in a pushrod 4.0 or 5.0 it is ALMOST ALWAYS carbon buildup.

Yes the bits of carbon can get flushed down into the crank case and hurt your bottom end. That is why you want to change it at 1000 miles (or sooner) and soon there after whenever you add a detergent oil (or any carbon bustin detergents)
These engines have very very strong bottom ends and can run for a long time even after these "low oil pressure" situations IF you get the passages unplugged!
Right now with 6psi at warm idle you are already on borrowed time and there is already carbon buildup in there.
A good flush procedure can buy you another 100K miles+

I have seen it with my own eyes more then once, a engine that has 0 oil pressure at warm idle comeback to have almost full oil pressure after this treatment.

A few years ago we had just replaced the auto transmission in a 2000 mountaineer that had 278K on it, we put a used transmission in it.
The engine lost oil pressure soon after the trans was installed. So to save the truck my friend used the detergent oil process we are discussing here.....last I checked that mounty still driving around as a daily commuter
 






Gee - now with all that, I can now act like I know what I'm doing. Thank You.
Now I'm back to finishing my head replacement.
 






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