Battery replacement?

[markaz]

'92 Explorer w/15 month old DuraLast battery and I live in Arizona.

Everything requiring the battery has worked very well including start-ups. 2 to 3 cranks and it would fire. Two evenings ago I accidentally left the running lights, not the headlamps, on. Battery completely dead after about 7 hours to the point where interior lights wouldn't work. Tried to jump the battery, but even when hooked up to the other vehicle I noticed the interior lights were very dim and the engine wouldn't turn over a single time.

Removed the battery completely and topped off the cells with distilled. Hooked up my 1.5 Amp battery charger and all indications were that the battery was accepting the charge. This morning the charger indicated that the battery was completely charged. Hooked it back up and the first thing I noticed was the engine hood light was extremely dim. Key in ignition warning barely audible. In trying to start the engine it wouldn't even begin to turn over.

Removed the battery and hooked it up to the charger again and all indications are that the battery is completely discharged. I'm more than willing to purchase a new battery, but just want to learn from those in the know what apparently has failed with the battery. I come here because I know I'll get straight answers vs. a sales job from a retailer. Any guesses as to what MAY have happened to a battery that worked perfectly well one minute only to not accept a jump, a trickle charge or if it did accept the charge how it discharged with literally no load on it? Thanks for any info in advance.

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Connections inside the battery sometimes fail. That's what this sounds like. Broken connections can act up very randomly - start up and work just fine, and then it doesn't. Maybe tomorrow it works and is fine for a few days, then out of nowhere it fails again. They can even pass a test with a voltmeter (12.6 volts when fully charged), but a load test that undergoes several cycles will show a bad battery. And yes, a battery with broken internal connections will often seem to be taking a charge, but act exactly like you describe. Probably just a coincidence that the problem arose after you left the running lights on.

If you take the battery somewhere to have it tested and on the first quick test they do it checks good, insist they run the longer test that goes through several cycles. A year or two ago I had a battery that I was sure was bad, (acted much like yours) and took it to be tested. "Good battery" the guy says. I thought I was going to have to get physical with him to get him to run the longer test. He finally agreed. I came back an hour later and he says, "Bad battery".

 

[Maniak]

If your lights didn't get brighter when you hooked up the cables then you didn't get a good connection.

If you disconnect the negative cable from the dead battery and hook the jumper cables and the lights get bright BUT go dim when you connect the dead battery back into the circuit then you have a shorted battery which is about the worst thing that can happen to a battery.

When you have a battery with internally shorted cells your poor alternator is going to try to give it all the amps it can. That makes the battery hot and means your alternator is running a full field continuously which is hard on things. I don't think you have this as your later info says it "appears" to have charged.

Your current symptom is that it is taking a surface charge (appears charged) but can't supply any current. I've seen this happen to other batteries before but I don't know what exactly happens "in" the battery, other than it can only accept a surface charge.. I don't know if the plates are sufated(sp?) or if something else happened in there.

I've had very good luck with my current battery choice in the X. I'm using one the the Die Hard Platinum batteries. Its actually an AGM battery. That means no out gassing, no water loss etc. It just works until it's dead. Also, it "should" have less of a chance of internally shorting due to shock/vibration.

It's not cheap (IIRc, its right at $200) but I won't run a Wet battery in Arizona unless I just want something cheap that I don't care if it lasts. Mine's even a few years old now and has been used as 1/2 of a power source for a welder.. and Yes, its an Az vehicle too

~Mark

 

[BobWiersema]

I definitely feel your pain. I have had tons of battery problems over the years. I spend a lot of time in St.Germain WI. in the winter. In January -25°f is common. Batteries don't like this. One day it wouldn't start, my brother showed up with his 2000 BMW and jumped it. I asked him what brand of battery was in the car, he said it was the original Bosch. The car was 11 years old with over 100K miles on it. I went to Pep-Boys when I got home and bought a Bosch. Almost three years old now and never a problem with it. Bosch batteries also have a 3 year free replacement. So if you ask me what type of battery I recommend, I will tell you Bosch.

Bosch Battery at PepBoys

Bob

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Your current symptom is that it is taking a surface charge (appears charged) but can't supply any current. I've seen this happen to other batteries before but I don't know what exactly happens "in" the battery, other than it can only accept a surface charge.. I don't know if the plates are sufated(sp?) or if something else happened in there.

When I described broken connections inside the battery, I was referring to broken physical connections, but sulfated plates could cause too much electrical resistance and might behave in much the same way. Broken physical connections are like unplugging an electrical cord and probably wouldn't cause a short inside the battery.

Note - when his battery appeared fully charged, it was out of the truck and didn't involve the truck's charging system.

 

[markaz]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Good stuff. I've had it on the charger for over 6 hours now and still showing it taking up the "juice". I think the "surface charge" sounds like the probable reason for the fully charged reading I had this morning.

One question.....isn't it somewhat diagnostic that there is something internally broken if when hooked up to the other car's battery via the jumpers that there was absolutely no improvement in the battery's output? Cranking amps or even lights/audible warnings?

 

[BobWiersema]

I bought one of these cheap-O testers on ebay a while back. It comes in handy up at the lake house. Batteries in everything from cars to snowmobiles.

Just do a search for "Car battery tester" on ebay.

 

[Maniak]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Good stuff. I've had it on the charger for over 6 hours now and still showing it taking up the "juice". I think the "surface charge" sounds like the probable reason for the fully charged reading I had this morning.

One question.....isn't it somewhat diagnostic that there is something internally broken if when hooked up to the other car's battery via the jumpers that there was absolutely no improvement in the battery's output? Cranking amps or even lights/audible warnings?

Not really.. If you did that exact same test but pulled the negative battery cable off the battery and then the lights got brighter, then yes, the battery is internally shorted..

If you pull the cable off the battery and the lights don't get brighter then your jumper cables aren't making a good connection (or you have a bad battery cable on the car with the bad battery too).

~Mark

 

[Maniak]

I bought one of these cheap-O testers on ebay a while back. It comes in handy up at the lake house. Batteries in everything from cars to snowmobiles.

Just do a search for "Car battery tester" on ebay.

The correct name for this is Carbon Pile tester.. Just another word to search for if you want this style of tester (which I like).

~Mark

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Good stuff. I've had it on the charger for over 6 hours now and still showing it taking up the "juice". I think the "surface charge" sounds like the probable reason for the fully charged reading I had this morning.

One question.....isn't it somewhat diagnostic that there is something internally broken if when hooked up to the other car's battery via the jumpers that there was absolutely no improvement in the battery's output? Cranking amps or even lights/audible warnings?

Yes. But if your battery is old and getting weak, the lights may have drained it enough that it won't accept a charge now. An easy to start engine can "hide" a weak battery for a while.

Is your charger still charging at the same amps it was when you first hooked it to the battery, or has the rate of charge lessened a bit? It should lessen as the battery accepts the charge and gets closer to being fully charged. May be hard to tell with a 1.5 amp trickle charger. If your charger is like mine and has flashing lights instead of a guage, the flashing will get slower as the battery approaches full charge. A 1.5 amp charger is going to take a long time to fully charge a dead car battery, but a long, slow charge is much better than a fast high rate charge.

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Broken internal connection does not equal a short where there's arcing inside the battery (most of the time).

 

[markaz]

Yes. But if your battery is old and getting weak, the lights may have drained it enough that it won't accept a charge now. An easy to start engine can "hide" a weak battery for a while.

Is your charger still charging at the same amps it was when you first hooked it to the battery, or has the rate of charge lessened a bit? It should lessen as the battery accepts the charge and gets closer to being fully charged. May be hard to tell with a 1.5 amp trickle charger. If your charger is like mine and has flashing lights instead of a guage, the flashing will get slower as the battery approaches full charge. A 1.5 amp charger is going to take a long time to fully charge a dead car battery, but a long, slow charge is much better than a fast high rate charge.

Still charging at the same amps, I assume, because on my charger as the battery is charged the green LED will faintly begin to light up and the amber charging LED will begin to fade. That has not occurred . The amber light is still bright and intense.

 

[Maniak]

Broken internal connection does not equal a short where there's arcing inside the battery (most of the time).

If this was in response to

...
Not really.. If you did that exact same test but pulled the negative battery cable off the battery and then the lights got brighter, then yes, the battery is internally shorted..

I am talking specifically about the OP's testing method.

Using jumper cables will make the lights brighter on the problem vehicle. If it isn't there is a bad connection somewhere (outside of the battery) OR the bad vehicle's battery is pulling so many amps that the voltage will still be low. You can usually tell if you have that issue (pulling too many amps) as it arcs when you connect the jumper cables and depending on the cables you have, they can even get warm.

I'm not indicating any correlation between an internally shorted battery and a broken/bad connection within the battery.

~Mark

 

[429CJ-3X2]

I just wanted to clarify for current and future readers.

 

[delexploder]

Put it on charge with the caps off ( be very careful) keep an eye on it if one or more cells dont bubble shut it off let it calm down for a few then put a teaspoon of Epsom salt in the cell turn the charger back on and see if it brings it back, again be very careful, it took me years to figure out what my friend ( very old school mechanic) was doing because he wouldn't tell anyone what the white stuff was he was fixing batteries with,

 

[markaz]

Put it on charge with the caps off ( be very careful) keep an eye on it if one or more cells dont bubble shut it off let it calm down for a few then put a teaspoon of Epsom salt in the cell turn the charger back on and see if it brings it back, again be very careful, it took me years to figure out what my friend ( very old school mechanic) was doing because he wouldn't tell anyone what the white stuff was he was fixing batteries with,

Not one bubble in any cell. The charger is warm and "indicating' that it is charging with no problems, but that's it.

 

[Anime]

I've had very good luck with my current battery choice in the X. I'm using one the the Die Hard Platinum batteries. Its actually an AGM battery. That means no out gassing, no water loss etc. It just works until it's dead. Also, it "should" have less of a chance of internally shorting due to shock/vibration.

It's not cheap (IIRc, its right at $200) but I won't run a Wet battery in Arizona unless I just want something cheap that I don't care if it lasts. Mine's even a few years old now and has been used as 1/2 of a power source for a welder.. and Yes, its an Az vehicle too

I've also been using the DieHard Platinum for a few years now. Great battery. It's really an Odyssey AGM battery made by EnerSys, the same battery used in US Military vehicles, even.

It may cost $200 (less if you get it during one of their 20-25% off sales) but so what, I'd rather run a $200 battery that will last the years of it's warranty and start the vehicle every time rather than deal with battery issues.

The other bonus of an AGM battery - no corrosion.

 

[markaz]

I've also been using the DieHard Platinum for a few years now. Great battery. It's really an Odyssey AGM battery made by EnerSys, the same battery used in US Military vehicles, even.

It may cost $200 (less if you get it during one of their 20-25% off sales) but so what, I'd rather run a $200 battery that will last the years of it's warranty and start the vehicle every time rather than deal with battery issues.

The other bonus of an AGM battery - no corrosion.

I certainly can't argue with your and Maniak's successes with the DieHard Platinum @ $200, but in AZ there's little guarantee that the battery will make it past 12-18 months which is beyond the warranty period. I get that from the lesser brands at $90-$110. Anyway, $200 is probably what the vehicle is worth.....but your suggestions are well noted and probably the best route to go.

There's little doubt that I have a faulty battery that just decided to go unexpectedly without notice. Won't accept a charge any longer although the charger says differently, no evidence cells bubbling when charging, etc, etc. As for a replacement, I'll do so after I've double checked all the wiring and connectors to the battery as I did have the positive lead wires go loose on me at one time and had to completely redo all contact points.

Can't thank everyone enough for your contributions in making me a little more aware of things to try before kissing a battery off. really good stuff and reinforces posting here vs. doing anything else first. Again, thank you very much to all those who provided information.

~Mark~
(markaz)

 

[Maniak]

I certainly can't argue with your and Maniak's successes with the DieHard Platinum @ $200, but in AZ there's little guarantee that the battery will make it past 12-18 months which is beyond the warranty period. I get that from the lesser brands at $90-$110. Anyway, $200 is probably what the vehicle is worth.....but your suggestions are well noted and probably the best route to go.
</snip>

One of the big reasons I went with the Die Hard was their warranty. The group 34/78 warranty states (Free Replacement Warranty Term: 48 Months ). Here is the battery I'm using.. Group 34/78

The best warranty I found on other batteries was 3 years free (then pro-rated) and I was killing those batteries in less than 2 years.

~Mark~
(markaz)

At least I know I'm not the only Mark in Az

~Mark

 

[markaz]

One of the big reasons I went with the Die Hard was their warranty. The group 34/78 warranty states (Free Replacement Warranty Term: 48 Months ). Here is the battery I'm using.. Group 34/78

The best warranty I found on other batteries was 3 years free (then pro-rated) and I was killing those batteries in less than 2 years.


At least I know I'm not the only Mark in Az

~Mark

Nice! Not aware of that. Thanks.

OK...update for all you kind people who have spent the time helping me to better understand the Greek to me that is Auto batteries (and the reason I post here vs. other places and going to retailers).

Maniak made one mention of the possibility of poor connections if the neg was removed and there was improvement in lights, audible warning sound, etc. 429CJ-3X2 mentioned internal connections and it got me to thinking and grasping at straws. Thought I'd give it one last shot before buying a new battery.
Thoroughly cleaned the terminals with bicarb/water and dried with denatured EtOH. Remove all wiring (21 years old now) from the terminal clamps, snipped any loose ends, cleaned the exposed 1" copper wiring and cleaned with same products. Twisted the wiring together as best I could, added some flux and a flowed some solder to join the wiring. Electrical taped the exposed portion of the wiring and screwed down the combined wiring into the terminal clamps very tightly. Hooked up both pos and neg and ran jumper cables from my good vehicle, but attaching the neg jumper cable to the chassis of the Explorer. Noticed that compartment lights were very bright and when the door opened clearly heard the key in ignition warning. With fingers crossed I turned over the engine and after about 4-5 cranks it fired!. Disconnected the jumpers and drove it around about 1/2 hour then let it sit in my garage for another 1/2 hour of running. Let it sit about an hour and it fired up after 1 crank.

Glad to have it operational, but why I got some of the readings from the charger I did I'll never know and why there was no bubbling activity on the cells I don't know. But for now it starts the vehicle like it's a new battery and all signs point to a discharge due to faulty/loose (tired) wiring at the battery and/or a bad connection with the terminal clamp(s).

Can't think of anything else to add other than a big thanks for all the in-depth info that eventually got the truck running.

~Mark~
(markaz)