Bent spark plug electrodes ? :-( !!!!!!!!!!

[stilbo]

Bought my fifth Explorer today.

First GEN III

2002 Explorer XLS with quite a few options for an XLS like rear air, 16 factory alloys, third seat and side steps... 74,000 miles, one owner, CarFax is good and it's a clean truck. Bought it on ebay for ..... $3500.00 I think the NADA on this thing is about $8500.00 retail.

I don't think I got hurt on this deal even if: It misfires and runs rough. I bought it knowing CEL was on but the auction/dealer said it was "engine in need of service". More like engine in need of replacement?

I took my Auto X-Ray scanner up to Waukegan, IL and the pcm was loaded with P304,305,306,316.. I couldn't pin point these in my code print outs but the scanner said "misfire in multiple cylinders". Okay.. I clear the codes and said screw it and drove it 92 miles back to Indiana to my shop. Ran like crap but made it and I didn't care at this price if I stuffed a piston into a wheel well. It threw one code halfway home: "Misfire in cylinder number three". I thought'' okay this is good! Plug? (crappy Motorcraft platinums) Plug wire?

I get it home and throw the fan on the engine to quick cool things and pulled # 3 plug and... it's carbon fouled... COOL! I thinks.. so I replace it and the next five plugs with Bosch Platinum standard plugs (DEATH TO MOTORCRAFT/AUTOLITE PLATINUM PLUGS!). I get to # 6 (driver's side rear) and notice the plug coming out not as easy by means of fingers as the other five... Gets plug out and: GROUND ELECTRODE BENT TO ONE SIDE AND CENTER ELECTRODE AND INSULATOR BENT ALL THE WAY TO ONE SIDE INSIDE PLUG CAVITY.

UH OH...

Well... that sucks I thinks to myself. The only other time I've seen smooshed plugs like this was in extremely high rpm motorcycle engines when valves have let loose or pistons fly off their wrist pins. But those engines don't go 90 miles more at 65 mph! There does not seem to be any mechanicl noise like scraping, clicking, clanging, knocking, etc, and I drove the damn thing 90 miles at 65 mph and nothing came out the sides of the block, the temp and oil pressure are fine but the damn thing still runs rough.... like maybe an intake or exhaust valve is not there any more?

WTF would make one of these Cologne motors self distruct like this?

Anyone else here ever take a plug outta their 4.0 and have the electrodes smooshed sideways?

I've put over 600,000 miles on four other 4.0 Explorers (OHV pushrod motors) with absolutely no problems other than intake manifold leaks on the '93 that retorqueing fixed.

The CEL has not come on yet so I'm gonna cycle it tomorrow and try to throw another code. I'm gonna replace some plug wires too with some known good ones I have in the shop.

I keep thinking (wishing) that that smooshed spark plug went INTO the head like that after one of the simian "mechanics" at the sales facility ran it over with a D-8 bulldozer before installing it, but I'm not counting on it..

Been pricing engines locally and found a couple "B" rated engines, complete with under 80k miles for $675. I'd just pull the LH head and peek into the cylinder but that's about as much work as R&R the whole damn engine... If a valve did get loose can I tell by just pulling the valve cover and checking the cam followers? (I'm a 4.0 OHV guy remember) And if a valve did go bouncy bouncy bouncy on top of the piston the cylinder walls would no doubt be toast too... weird thing is, there is not any signigant blow by or pressurization of the crankcase. I'd expect that if a valve DID flop around in there, the piston would have a very large hole in it's poor little crown...

Anyway...

If anyone has any useful, interesting, amazing or even spiteful comments... have at it please.

Thanks....

rds

 

[Maniak]

One of the time we changed plugs on our '92 I replaced them with Bosch Double Platnum. Almost immediately (10 minutes or so of run time) The engine started to run very rough.. I pulled the plugs once I figured which cylinder wasn't firing and found the entire end of the plug was demolished (looks like it exploded).

The left over bits got stuck between the valve and head. I had to pull the heads and replace that valve.

Ever since then I've only run autolite plugs (what I used to run before I tried the bosch)..

~Mark

 

[stilbo]

Hmmm we seem to be diametrically opposed...

I used to put the Mortorcraft Double Platinums into other Explorers during tune ups because that is OEM standard but once I had about five irrate friends limp their trucks back here only to find that one plug was dead, no continuity from tip to cap, I stopped buying them. I've been using Bosch Platinums in Harleys, antique muscle cars, Lycoming aircraft engines, high stress Ducatis, VW's Porsches and Audis and one '64 Studebaker Lark V8 with no problems... ever.

What did your cylinder walls look like after the flying bits and pieces?

You were able to just rebuild the head and slap it back on the engine?

 

[Willard]

Hmmm we seem to be diametrically opposed...

I used to put the Mortorcraft Double Platinums into other Explorers during tune ups because that is OEM standard but once I had about five irrate friends limp their trucks back here only to find that one plug was dead, no continuity from tip to cap, I stopped buying them. I've been using Bosch Platinums in Harleys, antique muscle cars, Lycoming aircraft engines, high stress Ducatis, VW's Porsches and Audis and one '64 Studebaker Lark V8 with no problems... ever.

What did your cylinder walls look like after the flying bits and pieces?

You were able to just rebuild the head and slap it back on the engine?

I'll tell you about 90% of this forum will disagree with you on this. Many here have bad experiences with Bosch. Most also run Motorcraft/Autolite.

 

[Maniak]

The walls didn't look too bad, but that was now the low cylinder..

I got 130psi on that cylinder and 155-160 on all the others from then on.

That spark plug went when the motor had somewhere around 230k miles or so on it.. I kept driving the truck until 355k miles when I had a head crack again (no overheating). At that point I just rebuilt the motor.

when I fixed the motor after the plug let go (at 230kish) I just pulled the heads, took off the valve and had a shop replace fix that guide and replace the valve for me. When I had the heads off I used 3" pads on a die grinder and took off the carbon from everything I could, including the tops of the pistons. I also lapped the rest of the valves, and put it backtogether.. Oh yea, I put on new valve stem seals. I still had cross hatch on all 6 cylinder walls at 230k miles..


~Mark

 

[wood1]

I'd be interested in what compression that cylinder has compared to the others, I'm an OHV guy as well so I'm afraid I can't be of any use regarding those cammer motors...

 

[stilbo]

Thanks for the feed back guys..

I'm going out to test compression first thing this morning. Will post results.

Hey Devil Boy, you know where Bear Wallow Hill is in Brown County? I lived on the side of it for 16 years while working at IUCF in B'ton. I miss having REAL mud and REAL hills to play in/on up here in the stinkin flatlands.. Lake Monroe back waters in the Hoosier National has the stickiest and funnest clay mud I've ever played in.

Maniak, ain't it amazing that these little motors can take that kind abuse without destroying the cylinder walls, rings, etc?

I also have an '87 Merkur Xr4Ti w/ the good old Toledo built SVO 2.3 turbo four. That 2.3 is the reason 200,000 mile Pintos would still be flying down the road with carpet and seats dragging... The only plugs that the (16.7 Lb) turbo does not "blow out the flame path" are the Bosch Platinums and NGK Platinums or Iridiums. I went from electrical engineering in automotive applications (pre Visteon non ASE) for the big three via my work at Purdue University to high energy accelerator physics at Indiana University Cyclotron Facility. I was part of the research teams that found that those pesky EEC-IV modules and distributor electronics did not like to be cooked at high temperatures. I still built/machined Harley stroker motors for drag racing. While at the cyclotron I had a partner with a Phd in physics and electron flow and proton capture was his specialty. Tim's job was to design the electron beam equipment that would produce electrons that would co-path over 10 meters with a proton beam and "cool" the shell temperature of the protons to reduce transverse energy losses and produce a proton beam that was extremely well defined and moving at 75% the speed of light (!) all without making lightning. Lightning BAD. Tim was a motorhead too and into piston aircraft engines and Ducatis. We built a test rig with a 350 single Honda engine with fiber optics and high speed camera and we stuffed the whole noisy mess into a dark corner at the back of the building so we could throw the exhaust hose outside under a roll up door. There were not very many platinum plugs back then but the Bosch standard was one of them. The motivating reasons for all this was because those goofy four ground prong copper centered plugs were flooding the market and people and NASCAR were paying big bucks for them. We had an inside at a Michigan/Carolina machine shop that a car that had the sponsorship from the plug company was NOT using their plugs.. So we decided to do some looking. What we saw was that the SINGLE spark would move around from grond prong to ground prong. There are no multiple simultaneous sparks as their advertising artwork would have you believe. Over hours of running, we noticed that soot would accumulate in minute amounts on the ground electrodes due to not being "cleaned" by a spark in ongoing spark cycles. Then the spark would tend to migrate to the cleanest of the four prongs and pretty much stay there rendering the plug a single prong plug. Once other manufacturers saw the income potential of this increasingly popular plug, they caved in to production of their own versions. Especially Bosch who stupidly and apparently felt that they had a lot to lose. Bosch pretty much invented the magneto in the 1800's. FoMoCo did not cave in to the best of my knowledge with a multi-prong plug.

So... I'd be interested to know how many of those disappointed Bosch Platinum users were using multi-prong plugs. Plug performance and 100% plug failure (in less than 100 hours) are two very different qualities. Performance, unless determined by a dynomometer, is very often a perceived quality but to pull a plug and test for continuity from tip to tip and find a zero ohm / open circuit as I've found on several Motorcraft plugs just tells me that the manufacturing plant has some QA problems.

Okay! My coffee just soaked in!

blah blah blah !

I'm headed out to the shop for some compression testing....

rds

 

[Willard]

Hey Devil Boy, you know where Bear Wallow Hill is in Brown County? I lived on the side of it for 16 years while working at IUCF in B'ton. I miss having REAL mud and REAL hills to play in/on up here in the stinkin flatlands.. Lake Monroe back waters in the Hoosier National has the stickiest and funnest clay mud I've ever played in.

Not familiar with Bear Wallow Hill, but I'm real familiar with the mud around here. My friends live down in the low lands pretty much on the Brown County line. We've gone into the fields lots of times, that is some good mud. Where are you now? My sister-in-laws parents live up in Williamsport by Attica.

 

[stilbo]

Compression is 165-170 psi on all 6 cylinders....

Codes 303, 305, 306 and 316 = misfire in cylinders 3-5-6.

316 = misfire detected first 1000 revolutions.

Replaced Bosches w/ set of new (!) Motorcraft double platinums I had in shop.

Checked order... okay

Connected NEW coil pack.... (old and new one's values the same)

Replaced plug wires.

I should probably replace the fuel filter but I can't imagine that having this much effect and specifically on only three cyls... I think my '97 has the original one in it w/ 138,000. No problems.

I do hear a slight scuffing sound from under the intake manifold in vicinity of LH valve cover....

Still puzzled as to why two cyls on left bank and one on right bank..

They are the last three cyls to fire though...

I may just drive it over to friend's shop. He has the super duper deluxe Snap-On real time analyzer...

Found another engine for $400.00 hope I don't need it..

 

[stilbo]

Yo Devilboy...

I'd like to send you a couple pics of my dear old Competition Red '93 XLT flying down a hill sideways near "Horseman's Camp" south of Nashville off of 135... A friend of mine has about 100 acres back there and some steep mud.. When you say "county line" you mean north around Lake Lemon - Yellow wood Forest or south around lake Monroe?

I'm in Laporte county. The ONLY hilly part of LaPorte county... but no time for muddin anymore. I work for the utility company up here and I get a free F350 four door, V-10, 4x4 for my office. Some weeks I cruise 700 miles. It's a 2003 with 168k on it.

 

[stilbo]

Engine still floppin around... 3-5-6 misfire, random misfire all cylinders, misfire in first 1000 revolutions and also a new code for lean mixture in bank one. Hmmmm now it sounds like it's getting spark and burning fuel but not getting enough fuel?

My friend with the SnapOn analyzer went to Black Hills on his old Harley and won't be back for another two weeks..

I'm changing the fuel filter. Both tailight lenses are broken. Looks like punks whacked them so maybe they dumped crap in the fuel tank?

Wound up clay barring, waxing and detailing the exterior today. Now it looks like it's worth throwing more money and time at...

rds

 

[Willard]

Yo Devilboy...

I'd like to send you a couple pics of my dear old Competition Red '93 XLT flying down a hill sideways near "Horseman's Camp" south of Nashville off of 135... A friend of mine has about 100 acres back there and some steep mud.. When you say "county line" you mean north around Lake Lemon - Yellow wood Forest or south around lake Monroe?

I'm in Laporte county. The ONLY hilly part of LaPorte county... but no time for muddin anymore. I work for the utility company up here and I get a free F350 four door, V-10, 4x4 for my office. Some weeks I cruise 700 miles. It's a 2003 with 168k on it.

The county line I'm talking about was the one down south around lake monroe...although I live near Lake Lemon, but friends live south...

I'd love to see some pics, post them here if you want, or shoot them to me in an e-mail if you don't want to clog the thread up anymore. You're like the second person I've met that knows this area...


Now for your truck, I would check out the gas, that would be a distinct possibility. Have you pulled the new plugs and looked at them? Did the one get smashed again?
Getting live running data should help, that should hopefully tell us more about what's going on here....
If stuff was put in the gas, it could have clogged up those injectors some.

 

[02mountaineerv8]

you think you have problems now? wait a little bit until those Bosch Platinums you put in there heat up some! Thats asking for trouble.

a couple years ago i brought Bosch Platinums for my 02 mountaineer... talk about having a rough engine! Those things would fail on me all the time! I went back to motercraft spark plugs and it runs like new again.

 

[stilbo]

Yo DevilBoy..

Jeez.. you lucky person you... I sure do miss it down your way... will always seem more like home than up here even though I've been up here for last eleven years... Most of my friends still live down your way. Friends of mine bought Melloncamp's "Little Pink House" from girl that won it in the MTV contest eons ago. It's on Northshore Drive at west end getting near old 37 North.

I probably put a couple hundred thousand miles on motorcycles going around Lake Monroe. I could drive it all blindfolded. We go through on way to Madison once a year so we should connect sometime...

"Ribber Fest" is next weekend in Madison! $20.00 and lots of music (Johnny Winter headlines Saturday) and the state BBQ cook off contest down at the river. I wish we could make it this year!

The pics of my '93 XLT are so old they are on FILM/PHOTO PAPER! I forgot about that! I have a million photos my lazy ass needs to scan... someday...

GAS..

CODE "BANK ONE LEAN"

Hmmmm......

I pulled all the plugs and looked at them after driving (barely) 30 miles and they are way too clean that's the MOTORCRAFT plugs by the way...

The plugs have not come back out of #6 bent or bad at all.... the monkeys in Chicago musta screwed something up? compression and leak down are fine.

I'm going to pull the filter and run a temporary hose from the pump side to a gas can and twist the key several times and see what comes out.

I went to SNOPES.COM and searched "sugar in gas" and it's not as bad as one would think. Sugar does not disolve in gasoline period. Sugar was irradiated and then added to gas then centrifuged, shaken, stirred etc and then observed. The sugar still was seperate. Then asalysis was done on the gasoline to detect the radioactive sugar component and they only find .05% present in the gasoline... BUT sugar WILL clog the pump inlet screen (pull tank/pull pump sending unit and steam tank) and or the fuel filter juust the same as if soemone dumped 5# of sand in your tank. I think flour would be worse?

So... when I run the pump on four or five start cycles I'm going to be looking for gasoline....

 

[Curtis]

I went to SNOPES.COM and searched "sugar in gas" and it's not as bad as one would think. Sugar does not disolve in gasoline period. Sugar was irradiated and then added to gas then centrifuged, shaken, stirred etc and then observed. The sugar still was seperate. Then asalysis was done on the gasoline to detect the radioactive sugar component and they only find .05% present in the gasoline... BUT sugar WILL clog the pump inlet screen (pull tank/pull pump sending unit and steam tank) and or the fuel filter juust the same as if soemone dumped 5# of sand in your tank. I think flour would be worse?

Mythbusters did the same thing... Their motor ran with no problems after adding sugar to the tank. They didn't see any sugar dissolve even after leaving it over night.

I think clogging is the problem with sugar, not melting and gumming stuff up.

 

[Willard]

If you're ever around here you can give me a shout and we can meet up somewhere to do whatever for awhile.

Sounds definitely like a fuel problem. I'm almost betting now you have three clogged fuel injectors.

 

[crash594]

or an 02 sensor on that bank I would unplug the mass air flow sensor and put it in default mode and take it for a drive. this will put it in a preprogramed rich mode(or limp mode you may not get full RPM but you are looking for roughness). if it still runs rough then this will verify clogged injectors. (I was told this by an old tech and it is used for finding faulty sensors with out a code reader and the engine will not start but I have used it for other trouble shooting issues)

 

[stilbo]

Crash594, Thanks man!

I been wondering about O2 sensors seeing erroneous lean mix but no codes related to O2 sensor problems...

I'm going out to the shop and unplug the sucker right now and see what happens when I fire it up.

Best way to clean injectors without pulling them? I've seen high dollar kits with a 12 oz can of some nuclear mix of gas and solvent that feeds the engine through the Schrader valve (?) with the vehicle pump off line with relay removed (?). But they are not at the loacl Advance Auto..

I'me getting burnt out chasing 3,5 and 6 ghosts...

I changed the filter today and I cut the old one open when I couldn;t blow from the engine side back to the pump side and noticed some blak crud in the filter pipe. I saved what came out in a clean Pyrex container.. teaspoon of
H2o, black silt (about another teaspoon) but what was really wierd was the black greasy stuff that was clogging the paper elements.. I put the whole mess in the sun to evaporate the gasoline and then looked at the stuff on the filter paper and it had dried to a greasy/chalky consistency. Looks like major dirt. This is a 2002 with only 74k miles on it. This xls was towed behind a motor home. It still has the tow bar stubs on the front. It has the oem Ford tow package too so no damge from towing but to tow a vehicle this big (usually you see Saturns getting dragged behind class A motorhomes) the mother ship had to be a BIG hinker like a diesel pusher and people that own those live in them damn near. And the go all over the place and even MEXICO. I remember pulling both Solex carbs off of my old '70 VW bus just this side of the Mexico/US border (thank god) and cleaning the nastiest crud out of them. That was 30 years ago and I would think that fuel would have to be cleaner...

Anyway I let the fuel pump free pump about a half gallon into a new plastic gas can with about twenty key turns and all I got was clear gas and a little bit of sediment. So after all that I thought "HOT DAMN" this has got to be it... I drove it and it still ran crappy... BUT it was only throwing a code for number 3 and was considerable smoother. Twenty miles late it's back to 3-5-6, multiple random misfires, 316 and bank one lean. S**T..

So here I go into the shop at 10:46 pm and unplug the MAF (Right? I'll check yer post after this screed) and give her a nudge in the shorts...

Is it a ***** pulling the injectors? I had an old Porsche with K-Jet Tronic injection and I used to have to smuggle the injectors into the laboratory and throw them into our ultra-sonic cleaner all morning... they'd gunk up even with a new filter.. I think that it sat in a body shop for a few years with now gas cap and enough paint got into the fuel tank to varnish it...

Here goes....

 

[stilbo]

Unplugged the MAF and started and ran it in the shop. I shouldn't need to actually drive it to force it into rich mix/limp home mode. right? I still runs rough and the pcm saw the "high voltage" in MAF and temp with MAF unplugged.. That and 3 5 6 . Since these three cylinder are on opposite sides of the engine, cams and valve timing should ne be in play here.. and the only thing that these cyls have in common are that they are the last three to fire before the first three start it all over again so.... clogged fuel injectors... ?

I cant see how that greasy mud made it past the filter but hey, a microns a micons a micron.. so maybe three injectors do have crud in them?

Haven;t looked in the service manual yet but looks like pulling the intake manifold is a sure thing... great..

I detailed my 96' Limited today and was just getting ready to parke her down by the road with the FOR SALE sign on her when I decided to fart around with a rusty chrome beauty tip and broke the two rear pipe hangers off the pipe and the pipe pulled out a fist sized chunk in the rear of the muffler.. Great, I now have to either wallow under it and weld crap back together or just take it to snarkey's muffler shop tomorrow morning.... It did NOT have a single exhaust leak until I started yankin on the tail pipe... duh.

Fairly clean, 173,000 highway miles, lotsa new parts, full Limited 4wd package, everything works but transfer case servo motor switch needs the service thingy, good tires, full tank and a new muffler... $3700 too much?

 

[stilbo]

Eureka....

Guess what gives a "lean mixture code" and misfiring in multipole cylinders (316)...

HOLES IN INTAKE MANIFOLD!

I pulled the intake to start replacing the injectors ($38.00 at Advance Auto but they were out of them and did not show any in warehaouses but still cheap..)

I pulled the intake manifold and there's a normaol amount of goo and black crud here and there and then I lookinto #6 and #5 runners in the manifold and notice what looks to be great gobs of black greasy spooge deposits... I stick my finger in to give it a wipe and it's as hard as..... PLASTIC! Then I see it... the runners are melted inside, some of the plastic has been sucked down past the o-rings, there are giant long vacuum extruded plastic sprues taking up a good deal of the inside, the base near the 0-rings is distorted and when I looked at the outside.... THREE HOLES ABOUT 1/16" DIAMETER! I had a stethescope with the open ended hose on it yesterday because I could sworn I heard a vacuum leak.... I checked the manifold bolts for torque and they were okay so figured since I'm not familiar with this engine, it must be normal noise that sounds like a vacuum leak... WRONG!

Now it starts to make sense... The beauty cover that covers the throttle body was gone when I bought the truck... apparently some numb nutz must have been squirting highly flamable stuff into the intake and it backfired?

Or.... maybe ?

Now I'm not sure that I need to replace $300 - $400 worth of injectors...

I found the manifold online for $202 at Ford Parts Direct... the dealer qouted me $275 over the phone but they usually come down when I show up in person.....

I'm starting a new thread to supplement this saga... "Melted Intake Manifold".