Best Year 5.0 for Speed Build

[Dono]

Yes, go 01 if its the best deal you can find.

With programming, you can shut off rear 02 sensors, and egr if required. I think this is what you are really asking.

If your willing to spend the cash and want to do it your self for learning and freedom of changes, you can go with an SCT programmer and a pro racer package. Also a member here that goes by decipha can make changes for you at root level programming if you wish. He appears to be extremely intelligent with this stuff.

You have lots of options on the programming side, no worries there.

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, go 01 if its the best deal you can find.

With programming, you can shut off rear 02 sensors, and egr if required. I think this is what you are really asking.

If your willing to spend the cash and want to do it your self for learning and freedom of changes, you can go with an SCT programmer and a pro racer package. Also a member here that goes by decipha can make changes for you at root level programming if you wish. He appears to be extremely intelligent with this stuff.

You have lots of options on the programming side, no worries there.

That might be the member who I read of on the Corral who is most familiar with later Mustang PCM's, the 99-04 versions I believe. I'm hoping to find him again to help select my PCM's, for two of my four projects.

For a 2nd gen Explorer etc, skip the 95-97's, many deficiencies were corrected in 1998. The poorly designed torsion bar key pads make those poor choices. Buy a 98-01, the options/features are virtually the same, pick it based on the choice of fuel system and computer.

The 98 is the last return fuel system, 99+ are 62psi returnless. 98+ has PATS so swaps require a tune that disables PATS etc. As Don said, you can easily program out the EGR or rear O2, to keep the CEL off.

For performance, the stock PCM's will do what you want, better than the EECIV(they are just more advanced), but they will need some kind of better tune(at the end at the least).

The entire exhaust is crap, replace it all. Use two mufflers and two tail pipes, not one(that reduces flow by half), build some kind of manifolds(I'm doing log manifolds), and a pair of good 3" cats should work.

The truck automatics are poor choices for any "shift kits", becuase the truck VB calibrations often do not play nice with the VB kits. That's why some trucks have odd or poor shifting after the kits. Start with any comparable car trans, and the VB kits work as advertised.

BTW, the 2004 Mustang V6 has the last, best 4R70W in it. That one includes the "J Mod" already(it's factory engineer designed and Ford finally used it), and it has the SBF bell housing. Find those, it's the best for any automatic SBF vehicle to start with.

That PCM "expert" mentioned that he would prefer the Mustang OBDII computers, and that they could be utilized in place of the Explorer computer. Those will also control COP ignition, and best of all, it's faster and handles modifications much easier. But that will require modifications to the wiring harness, a tedious job. I'm going to do that with my new 98 Limited for sure, for the 14psi boost I'm aiming for.

So hunt the 98-01 Explorer/Mountaineer that you like the best, ignore mileage, go by the condition of the interior and other obsolete parts. The mechanicals and body are easy to keep up, the obsolete rubber and interior parts are hell to fix. I just bought this 98 Limited because it has all options without looking at the car, and it doesn't have the gaudy big wide fender flares. I have those on my 99, I still don't like them. The Mountaineers didn't get those thankfully.

The 2000 and 2001 Mountaineer had an optional painted grille. I don't really like the chrome one, so I've got a painted one that I'll like better I think.


For the computer, you can go with the old Fox stuff and its wiring, or the Explorer stock PCM/wiring, or alter the wiring some and go to the later SN95 PCM/wiring. All of them will take some programming. The EECIV has lots of knowledge out there. The Explorer is better but less people work with it, but everything revolves around a flasher(device that stores the programs(3-4)). Those take more time to swap.

The stock heads are poor, GT40 or P is low level flow. For power(300+), patiently hunt at least a TFS TW head, those unlock much more power above 5000rpm. Stock compression is 9:1 on every 5.0 ever made, for N/A get that to at least 10:1, it's worth it.

A 351W block bolts right in sure, but every external part is a PITA to modify to make it fit. It's been done a few times, and each person said they would never do it again. Nobody has done it twice(fab an oil pan, headers, distributor cam synch etc). Stick with the 302 block and set a decent price level. Do the exhaust and decide on the PCM, find the heads, build the 10:1 engine, swap it in, do the tuning. Have fun.

 

[Mesozoic]

You're referring to Mike (aka Decipha), who runs EFIDynoTuning.com. That's a good place to start. I am Shaker666 on most forums, including EFIDynotuning.com. Also EECTuning.org, TurboFords.org, Corral.net, and various others.

Yes, we prefer tuning with the OEM Ford computers... they are very well engineered. It's hard for an aftermarket company to compete with a massive company that's developed EFI for consumer products for almost half a century. The impetus to develop specialized strategies to refine engine control is simply less with aftermarket products. Ford has every reason to and is able to dedicate thousands of man hours to each of these efforts. Their resources are relatively limitless.

In any case, I agree with all that has been mentioned.

What is arguably the biggest PITA you will encounter with an EEC-V system, is that if your ignition cylinder's RFID doesn't match the EEC's, you're not going anywhere because of PATS. One method I've discovered to circumvent it is to start your own calibration based on a non-PATS calibration. Now this may be a bit difficult if you're using a REAC3 or REAC4 strategy ('00 Mountaineer), for example. An alternative may be to use the very popular CDAN4 strategy computer instead. SailorBob sells a $25 definition that is very complete and with the aid of a Quarterhorse or Tweecer, you'll be able to flash just about anything onto it. Of course, you'll also be somewhat tied to Binary Editor, which can be a bit of a steaming pile and rather expensive, but I think it still ends up being cheaper than buying a custom definition from Pops Racing ($250 just for the def, plus you still need BE to tune it). The downside is you'll have to build the tune from the ground up, which takes a bit of time. Or you could have Decipha setup a base tune for a minimal fee if that's more appealing.

Alternatively, if running an EEC-IV is ok for your legality, then you can do that and still retain the EDIS coil packs if you find an external EDIS module from a '93 Lincoln or WHY and wire it into your EEC-IV TFI harness. I've done this twice and it's relatively simple. The GUFB strategy is free and TunerPro will tune it reliably for free as well, so that's a much cheaper option if you don't get gouged for the EDIS module and pigtail.

The main reason I stuck with EEC-V in my situation was because I wanted 4R70W control. For a fully integrated solution that supports EDIS and the 4R, the EEC-V is the cleanest way.

 

[CDW6212R]

Bump, good resource of tuning details.

 

[97-5.0]

Or swap in a used coyote for under 5k, 4r70w coyote kit for 3k ish, way better plan IMO.

Lightly used coyotes everywhere!

 

[Blown]

I have tuned several 302's, a 349, 351 and 393 with 9lbs of boost with a Tweecer. Tweecer.com If you scroll down the home page you can see tuning options and devices.

 

[OldBroncoRacer]

That might be the member who I read of on the Corral who is most familiar with later Mustang PCM's, the 99-04 versions I believe. I'm hoping to find him again to help select my PCM's, for two of my four projects.

For a 2nd gen Explorer etc, skip the 95-97's, many deficiencies were corrected in 1998. The poorly designed torsion bar key pads make those poor choices. Buy a 98-01, the options/features are virtually the same, pick it based on the choice of fuel system and computer.

The 98 is the last return fuel system, 99+ are 62psi returnless. 98+ has PATS so swaps require a tune that disables PATS etc. As Don said, you can easily program out the EGR or rear O2, to keep the CEL off.

For performance, the stock PCM's will do what you want, better than the EECIV(they are just more advanced), but they will need some kind of better tune(at the end at the least).

The entire exhaust is crap, replace it all. Use two mufflers and two tail pipes, not one(that reduces flow by half), build some kind of manifolds(I'm doing log manifolds), and a pair of good 3" cats should work.

The truck automatics are poor choices for any "shift kits", becuase the truck VB calibrations often do not play nice with the VB kits. That's why some trucks have odd or poor shifting after the kits. Start with any comparable car trans, and the VB kits work as advertised.

BTW, the 2004 Mustang V6 has the last, best 4R70W in it. That one includes the "J Mod" already(it's factory engineer designed and Ford finally used it), and it has the SBF bell housing. Find those, it's the best for any automatic SBF vehicle to start with.

That PCM "expert" mentioned that he would prefer the Mustang OBDII computers, and that they could be utilized in place of the Explorer computer. Those will also control COP ignition, and best of all, it's faster and handles modifications much easier. But that will require modifications to the wiring harness, a tedious job. I'm going to do that with my new 98 Limited for sure, for the 14psi boost I'm aiming for.

So hunt the 98-01 Explorer/Mountaineer that you like the best, ignore mileage, go by the condition of the interior and other obsolete parts. The mechanicals and body are easy to keep up, the obsolete rubber and interior parts are hell to fix. I just bought this 98 Limited because it has all options without looking at the car, and it doesn't have the gaudy big wide fender flares. I have those on my 99, I still don't like them. The Mountaineers didn't get those thankfully.

The 2000 and 2001 Mountaineer had an optional painted grille. I don't really like the chrome one, so I've got a painted one that I'll like better I think.


For the computer, you can go with the old Fox stuff and its wiring, or the Explorer stock PCM/wiring, or alter the wiring some and go to the later SN95 PCM/wiring. All of them will take some programming. The EECIV has lots of knowledge out there. The Explorer is better but less people work with it, but everything revolves around a flasher(device that stores the programs(3-4)). Those take more time to swap.

The stock heads are poor, GT40 or P is low level flow. For power(300+), patiently hunt at least a TFS TW head, those unlock much more power above 5000rpm. Stock compression is 9:1 on every 5.0 ever made, for N/A get that to at least 10:1, it's worth it.

A 351W block bolts right in sure, but every external part is a PITA to modify to make it fit. It's been done a few times, and each person said they would never do it again. Nobody has done it twice(fab an oil pan, headers, distributor cam synch etc). Stick with the 302 block and set a decent price level. Do the exhaust and decide on the PCM, find the heads, build the 10:1 engine, swap it in, do the tuning. Have fun.

So, I realize this post is a couple of years old, but hopefully you're still around. You're saying an 04 3.8/3.9 V6 4R70W Is the best and that it will bolt up to a 351W. We're rebuilding the 01 Ranger desert race truck, and it has a built 351w, with a 4R70W full manual VB. Probably use the 351W flex plate, converter, and starter?

And trying to decide whether to use a 96 f150 5.0 brain, no tranny controls, since the 96 351W's were only auto( maybe I could delete the controls?). Or, an Explorer brain, figure out how to disable the tranny controlls, and get the 351W Cam Positioner dizzy and Crank Trigger from 64bit(?). I have both a Tweecer RT and a SCT and just need to figure one of them out, or buy a tune if I can't.

Re-wiring is not a big deal. No smog, body controls, etc. Basically, just power, injectors, and a couple of sensors, starter, alternator.

Any wisdom appreciated.

-ed

 

[CDW6212R]

Welcome Ed. Any 4R70W or AODE with a two bolt starter, will bolt to all SBF's. The modular engines all use a three bolt starter, so the bell housing pattern is different also.

The later 4R is better just because they had the latest updates already. The 98+ has the mechanical diode drum, and the last couple of models of Mustang(03/04) also had the Jerry's Mod in them. Those were 3.8 V6's, and the trucks with 4.2 were also the SBF pattern, 3.9 is not the same. They all had the same flexplate tooth number(164), so you can use what you have.

Most any SBF EFI PCM will work, but each uses various front dress, distributor etc. The 98-01 Explorer should be avoided for any non Explorer, those also require the ABS module wired in(you don't want that). All PCM's can have the trans control tuned out of them(the common old ones(latest not yet)).

The 351W takes a different distributor, so to use the Explorer EDIS ignition, you'll have to make or buy an aftermarket cam synchronizer($400ish). The Explorer PCM is made for the Explorer balancer(trigger wheel), so you might have to work with it(50oz), or get one made that is 28oz, or SFI approved(custom work). That would let you use the entire Explorer front dress(much shorter than old SBF pulley system). That also is for the Explorer balancer to work with it.

So for a swap to another vehicle, the 97.5 Explorer PCM and wiring harness is the best. But the F150 can work also, just different programming, and the regular SBF distributor/balancer/accessories.

 

[OldBroncoRacer]

Welcome Ed. Any 4R70W or AODE with a two bolt starter, will bolt to all SBF's. The modular engines all use a three bolt starter, so the bell housing pattern is different also.

The later 4R is better just because they had the latest updates already. The 98+ has the mechanical diode drum, and the last couple of models of Mustang(03/04) also had the Jerry's Mod in them. Those were 3.8 V6's, and the trucks with 4.2 were also the SBF pattern, 3.9 is not the same. They all had the same flexplate tooth number(164), so you can use what you have.

Most any SBF EFI PCM will work, but each uses various front dress, distributor etc. The 98-01 Explorer should be avoided for any non Explorer, those also require the ABS module wired in(you don't want that). All PCM's can have the trans control tuned out of them(the common old ones(latest not yet)).

The 351W takes a different distributor, so to use the Explorer DIS ignition, you'll have to make or buy an aftermarket cam synchronizer($400ish). The Explorer PCM is made for the Explorer balancer(trigger wheel), so you might have to work with it(50oz), or get one made that is 28oz, or SFI approved(custom work). That would let you use the entire Explorer front dress(much shorter than old SBF pulley system). That also is for the Explorer balancer to work with it.

So for a swap to another vehicle, the 97.5 Explorer PCM and wiring harness is the best. But the F150 can work also, just different programming, and the regular SBF distributor/balancer/accessories.

Thanks. I don't know if any, or much advantage, to using the EDIS, and using this, vs $. I have a 97 parts Explorer, has the "P" heads, so late model(?), that I could use the PCM from. I'll probably go with the 1996 5.0 MT brain then.

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64bittuning.fwscart.com

ans these guys can go from 50oz to 28oz Welcome to Damperdudes.net

I thought the 2004 3.9 was just an updated version of the 3.8's internals.

I need to find a 2WD 4r70W anyhow, so I wanted the latest that would work. So find a Mustang tranny that matches my block plate and I should be ok,

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, hunt a V6 2003 or 2004 Mustang trans. I got one a couple of years ago with 89k miles, for $350 shipped. Local yards are the best place to look, but the mileage is tough to find low.

That Damper dudes is a stock damper that they machine(rebalance) to 28oz. The stock balancers are not great for high performance(over 5500rpm). They last decades in stock low rpm automatic use, but not when the rpm's go up.

Check on the 3.9 V6, try to find a starter for that application, and see how many bolts it uses.

The shorter front dress is what I like most about the Explorer system, it fits better into anything. The old kinds use multiple brackets like a puzzle to mount the accessories. On the Explorer, one bracket for each head, and all accessories mount to just those. But the shorter balancer(no pulley) is part of it, plus the EDIS.

Have you already got the Windsor in the 01 Ranger, because that's a huge project by itself? It's only been done once posted on here, almost twice but the headers didn't get finished. It takes a custom oil pan, the cam synch, and exhaust manifold work. The others also used the Explorer front dress and PCM, the trucks were stock 302's before.

 

[OldBroncoRacer]

Nope, it's not in yet, but won't be a problem Here's a couple of pictures. Still has the 4.0L, but set back the length of the removed t-case, ~12". My son went into kind of blind 90° corner, Broke the caliper, the spindle, the Knuckle, etc, and tweaked the cage, which is why we're rebuilding.

Probably enough for this thread.

 

[CDW6212R]

Very good, you can put the radiator where you want it, and the frame is a minor issue for the oil pan and exhaust.

Is that a lower speed racing truck, or what's the speed range for WOT? The 4R is good for anything up to the 3rd gear red line, but does that limit you at all for the speed range(gearing)? If the speed is reasonable, the 4R is very good. If you have any need for more 1st gear or closer ratios, the 6R80 is the ticket.

It's cool to talk about any combinations or wild ideas. Most people here love it all, the OP here evidently was a short time member, and the 393W he mentioned didn't go into an Explorer(he hadn't bought yet in 2016).

I'd love to do a 6R80 in place of the 4R, check out the close ratio gearing. It has no bands, a 4.17:1 1st gear, a 0.69:1 high gear, and is stronger than the 4R.

 

[OldBroncoRacer]

We were going to put a 2014 Mustang 3.7 and 6R80 in it. I've got the motor, PCM, pedal, shifter, etc to make it work, and I've already raped the harness of everything not needed, mostly body stuff. Only one thing feeding the CAN bus, but it eludes me at the moment. Then he wadded it up in that 90° corner, at about 70mph, and we changed direction

It was built for the desert. We hadn't really tuned the shocks yet, but it was pretty good for the second guess, with 18" of travel in the front, and ~30" in the rear. I think he hit about 100mph on a good road, but I myself, about 90. And 50 - 70 is pretty good on rough roads, but hadn't got to any 2-3 foot whoops yet. But there is some stuff you have to slow down for. It has 5.43 gears and 37" BajaTA's

The PCM at the crash was an 03 Explorer 4.0L, engine from an 08 Mustang, IIRC,so we didn't have to worry about chains/followers at first and the tranny was a 2007 Mustang 5R55S, all with a minimal harness. Started out with a 2002 PCM, and the 5R55S, but Henson couldn't tune the combo. I found a guy down in San Diego that could, said he had a friend, who had GOD mode, and it worked pretty good. Then the EPA and CARB, I think, cracked down on tuning, I haven't been able to get a hold of him for a couple of years now..

By the way, where did Henson go?

Do you think the EDIS has any advantage over a good Dizzy on the 351w, with AFR heads, 10.25 pump gas, good CompCam, Pro-M MassFlo intake(kind of looks like a Vic Jr), etc? I know the Cam Position sensor and related parts costs ~$600, Which I could spend on other things. I am pretty sure that, because of the cost, I'll just run a good dizzy, and tune the F150 5.0 Manual Trans brain for the 351W. Is Decipha(?) easy to get a hold of?

My son now has a 2011 Raptor, and he's had to replace the 6R80 already. He likes it, but not too sure of it, And we'd have to buy an adapter and a Bauman or PA to control it - more money - never ends. And most of the desert racers run Turbo 400's, which are pretty bullet proof. Some of the Culhane C4's for the 4.0L's are becoming available, because of the 3.7, and EcoBoost's for that particular class.

 

[Mesozoic]

Very good, you can put the radiator where you want it, and the frame is a minor issue for the oil pan and exhaust.

Is that a lower speed racing truck, or what's the speed range for WOT? The 4R is good for anything up to the 3rd gear red line, but does that limit you at all for the speed range(gearing)? If the speed is reasonable, the 4R is very good. If you have any need for more 1st gear or closer ratios, the 6R80 is the ticket.

It's cool to talk about any combinations or wild ideas. Most people here love it all, the OP here evidently was a short time member, and the 393W he mentioned didn't go into an Explorer(he hadn't bought yet in 2016).

I'd love to do a 6R80 in place of the 4R, check out the close ratio gearing. It has no bands, a 4.17:1 1st gear, a 0.69:1 high gear, and is stronger than the 4R.

My buddy is a bit nuts and adapted a 6R80 to his turbo 302. He had to design an adapter plate and had it working, but the issue he ran into was in the electronic control of the transmission. While he did have it running for a while, he's pulled it and reinstalled the 4R70W he had in there originally. Either way... adapter plate makes it possible, for sure.

 

[CDW6212R]

My buddy is a bit nuts and adapted a 6R80 to his turbo 302. He had to design an adapter plate and had it working, but the issue he ran into was in the electronic control of the transmission. While he did have it running for a while, he's pulled it and reinstalled the 4R70W he had in there originally. Either way... adapter plate makes it possible, for sure.

I looked into it, I figured it would cost close to $4500 for my Explorer. There is an adapter plate kit for the front, it's around $700 IIRC, basically two AL spacers, one on each side(not a big ring), 1/2" thick, with four stud spacers for the TC. It would require two new gear sets for the diff's, and some kind of adapter for the transfer case etc. The controller is just under $1300 retail. I was figuring in a $750 torque converter. Fun to dream about, but you'd have to have a big need for it, and some extra time and money.