Can I use the AWD 4R70W in a swap without any AWD stuff? Putting it in an old truck 58 Apache

[5.0 Apache]

Hello all,
I have a 1996 AWD 5.0 explorer. I want to do a complete swap to a 1958 Apache I inherited from my dad. I am a Ford guy. Can I do the swap without any AWD parts, just make it a straight swap? Can I use the AWD tranny without the transfercase? Straight to drive line?

 

[Mbrooks420]

The 2wd versions have an different tail shaft. (Or have a tailshaft and not the extension housing) To swap it the transmission needs pulled apart. Better off finding a 2wd model.

 

[5.0 Apache]

The 2wd versions have an different tail shaft. (Or have a tailshaft and not the extension housing) To swap it the transmission needs pulled apart. Better off finding a 2wd model.

Thanks, but does it matter because the transmission is not going back in any explorer, Im putting it in a chevy truck and will have to make a drive line anyways, does it matter how long it is? I guess my real question should be if the driveline yoke will go into the awd tranny without the transfer case?

 

[Mbrooks420]

I don’t think it’ll work. It definitely wouldn’t be as simple as bolting the yoke in place if the transfer case. There’s no way to affix the yoke to the transmission.

I think making that transmission work isn’t a simple bolt on deal, I think the transmission has to come apart, essentially in a rebuilt tear down fashion.

 

[CDW6212R]

You will need the 2WD 4R70 or AODE parts, the rear output shaft, and tail housing. That 4WD/AWD trans you have doesn't have a usable back end to attach to. Everything made for them will be like the transfer case(six bolt pattern housing device), or the 2WD housing(long slip in shaft). If you fabricated something to replicate the transfer case, then you might be able to make a way to attach a drive shaft.

The real best way is to buy a 2WD output shaft and tail housing, then take the trans apart to swap the shaft. The output shaft is the first part installed into a bare transmission case. So you might as well have it bench built, after obtaining the 2WD output shaft and tail housing.

Also, be sure you get the needed output shaft to drive a speedometer if needed. That 96 trans has the speedometer sensor in it, and matching shaft. Later Ford removed those from models which have the speed sensor in the rear diff. So figure out your speedometer drive, mechanical cable most likely. I'm not sure which Ford cars had an output shaft which can drive speedometer cable. Good luck,

 

[5.0 Apache]

You will need the 2WD 4R70 or AODE parts, the rear output shaft, and tail housing. That 4WD/AWD trans you have doesn't have a usable back end to attach to. Everything made for them will be like the transfer case(six bolt pattern housing device), or the 2WD housing(long slip in shaft). If you fabricated something to replicate the transfer case, then you might be able to make a way to attach a drive shaft.

The real best way is to buy a 2WD output shaft and tail housing, then take the trans apart to swap the shaft. The output shaft is the first part installed into a bare transmission case. So you might as well have it bench built, after obtaining the 2WD output shaft and tail housing.

Also, be sure you get the needed output shaft to drive a speedometer if needed. That 96 trans has the speedometer sensor in it, and matching shaft. Later Ford removed those from models which have the speed sensor in the rear diff. So figure out your speedometer drive, mechanical cable most likely. I'm not sure which Ford cars had an output shaft which can drive speedometer cable. Good luck,

Thank you so much. That's what I needed to know. This transmission is trash, so I should just buy one that is for 2wd and use that instead of rebuilding this one. Hopefully I find an older one that has the speed cable in the trans. Also from what I understand it should be a two bolt starter so that the housing mates to the engine of a 5.0? Is that correct? Thanks for your time.

 

[5.0 Apache]

I don’t think it’ll work. It definitely wouldn’t be as simple as bolting the yoke in place if the transfer case. There’s no way to affix the yoke to the transmission.

I think making that transmission work isn’t a simple bolt on deal, I think the transmission has to come apart, essentially in a rebuilt tear down fashion.

Thank you that was what I was wanting to know. I think I will just get a 2wd version and go from there.

 

[Mbrooks420]

No problem. TONS of info around here and with the members. The 5.0 is a solid choice for an old school truck motor.

 

[CDW6212R]

Ditto, this forum and the Corral are full of information about the 302's and the transmissions.

For no real extra cost, you should want a 98+ 4R trans, plus the two 2WD parts, and yes a two bolt starter trans case. You can use the 96 computer and wiring harness to run any 4R, but that PCM will require the pre-98 DTRS(range sensor where the shift linkage mounts). The later PCM's have to have the digital version of that DTRS, so you have to match it to the computer type.

So find a 4R trans which isn't burned up, and depending on what years you find them from, you may be able to mix parts, or buy a single needed part or assembly to get what you do find usable. The one you have isn't the ideal year, it's 4WD, and you mention it's already hurt.

 

[Josh P]

The cheapest used 2wd 4R70 I've found is in the 96-04 V6 mustang. Same unit as the V8, and the 3.8 doesn't kill the transmission.

 

[CDW6212R]

Very true, which was part of my hint about seeing what's available. The last one I bought is a 2003 V6 Mustang 4R. Finding them with decent mileage is getting much harder now, this 03 has 89k miles. I would prefer one to build that has under 100k. My choice for any old car swap would be the best mileage two bolt 98+ 4R I could get. Then I'd buy the other parts to make it as needed, 2WD, old speedometer output shaft and housing, DTRS(needs to be new anyway), plus typical build parts. Most of the individual parts are available separately, on eBay etc. So don't get tied to one unit, others can be made to work.

 

[5.0 Apache]

The cheapest used 2wd 4R70 I've found is in the 96-04 V6 mustang. Same unit as the V8, and the 3.8 doesn't kill the transmission.

Thanks for the info.

 

[CDW6212R]

The cheapest used 2wd 4R70 I've found is in the 96-04 V6 mustang. Same unit as the V8, and the 3.8 doesn't kill the transmission.

I had read since I bought my 03 4R, that those V6 models had less clutches. I'm not sure about that, I was told to get them from a well known trusted builder of the 4R's, by a phone conversation. I haven't yet taken my 03 unit apart yet, but it won;t be any issue for me if it did have less of something. All of the internal parts are still very common to buy separately, any drum etc. I doubt there is any difference of those V6 models, but with no trouble anyone can upgrade any possible lesser part through eBay or tons of online trans parts sources. Simply count the clutches in each set, and verify they are the most available in any 4R.

 

[Josh P]

I had read since I bought my 03 4R, that those V6 models had less clutches. I'm not sure about that, I was told to get them from a well known trusted builder of the 4R's, by a phone conversation. I haven't yet taken my 03 unit apart yet, but it won;t be any issue for me if it did have less of something. All of the internal parts are still very common to buy separately, any drum etc. I doubt there is any difference of those V6 models, but with no trouble anyone can upgrade any possible lesser part through eBay or tons of online trans parts sources. Simply count the clutches in each set, and verify they are the most available in any 4R.

The 95 and earlier automatic transmissions had less clutches, people seem to think the 96 up ones were the same which is why they are dirt cheap. I swapped an 03 4R70W from a 3.8 mustang in my 68 cougar, used the V6 torque converter.

 

[CDW6212R]

I have gone through all of the upgrades of the AOD since 1980 when it began. Ford badly made lower capacity parts in the first AOD's, and all of the V6 versions, and in a couple of ways, the non 302 HO versions. I learned all of that along the way from 1987 when I bought my first AOD.

The 4R has been a much better trans from the start, both having all AOD upgrade levels, plus not creating many low end parts for lesser applications. In most part, any AODE or 4R70W has about the same parts in it no matter what the application was in that given year. So as I said before, I doubt the 03 range 4R's from a V6 Mustang have lesser drums etc, in them. The 2003 and 04 4R has the Jerry's Mod stuff in them already from the factory. The source for that was a Ford transmission engineer, so the idea and development finally got to the production line then.

 

[Josh P]

I have gone through all of the upgrades of the AOD since 1980 when it began. Ford badly made lower capacity parts in the first AOD's, and all of the V6 versions, and in a couple of ways, the non 302 HO versions. I learned all of that along the way from 1987 when I bought my first AOD.

The 4R has been a much better trans from the start, both having all AOD upgrade levels, plus not creating many low end parts for lesser applications. In most part, any AODE or 4R70W has about the same parts in it no matter what the application was in that given year. So as I said before, I doubt the 03 range 4R's from a V6 Mustang have lesser drums etc, in them. The 2003 and 04 4R has the Jerry's Mod stuff in them already from the factory. The source for that was a Ford transmission engineer, so the idea and development finally got to the production line then.

Ford made the transmission better through the years, the 4R75 is beautiful from the factory.

 

[Mbrooks420]

Will the 4r75 mate in place of the 4r70w?

 

[CDW6212R]

Unfortunately no, those were only with the modular bell housing, they all have three bolt starters. The main improvement of the 4R75W was the intermediate clutch system is much different. The front of the case where the intermediate clutches go, is shaped differently, those parts won't swap backwards.

Funny thing is though, the 6R80R has a pattern that is virtually a match to the SBF, and can be adapted with a plate adapter that relocates the starter, move dowels etc, small items. I wonder how far off the modular bell housing is, is the late 5.0 block not the same as all 4.6's?

 

[Josh P]

Will the 4r75 mate in place of the 4r70w?

The 4.2L F150 had to 4R75 from 05 to 08.

 

[Josh P]

Unfortunately no, those were only with the modular bell housing, they all have three bolt starters. The main improvement of the 4R75W was the intermediate clutch system is much different. The front of the case where the intermediate clutches go, is shaped differently, those parts won't swap backwards.

Funny thing is though, the 6R80R has a pattern that is virtually a match to the SBF, and can be adapted with a plate adapter that relocates the starter, move dowels etc, small items. I wonder how far off the modular bell housing is, is the late 5.0 block not the same as all 4.6's?

The coyote 5.0 pattern is the same as the 4.6. People have swapped T45 behind the SBF and the C4 behind the 4.6 using the factory bellhousing. The alignment dowels are in the same location between the two patterns, 5 bolts line up and if you swap out the alignment dowels on the SBF for bolts you can get 7 of the 8 spots secured on the modular bellhousing. The starter locations are different.