Dealer "repaired" my catalytic converters?

[Josh P]

I'd let the EPA ask the dealer about the repair.

 

[96firephoenix]

the only parts they replaced were oxygen sensors and a few bolts. The service guy described the process of "going in and breaking up/scraping out" and that all of the work on the cats was internal.

This sure as **** sounds like they installed O2 emulators and gutted your catalytic converters.

Remove the O2 sensors they installed from the exhaust, but don't unplug them and see if a Check Engine light comes on. If the light doesn't come on, they either disabled the O2 sensors or installed emulators. This is not legal, especially for them to represent as a viable repair.

As far as having a shop inspect the cats: taking off the O2 sensors and put an inspection camera in through the port. A shop could probably also tell you if they are O2 sensors or emulators.

Might not hurt to have an emissions test done now, regardless of when your sticker is up. That way you've got a paper trail within a few miles of their "repair" that shows the car is no longer capable of passing emissions. That right there gives you actual damages that you could prosecute for, in the form of the cost to repair the car to a state where you can pass emissions. Beyond that, if they've disabled the cats and the O2 sensors in the way that I think they have, there could be a good case to report them to the County regulatory body and the EPA.

 

[PJ_10]

Just got back from having one of the independent shops lift it and use an inspection camera - of the 3 cats, the rear-most closest to the muffler was gutted/hollowed out they called it, the front driver's side was not hollowed out, but their camera couldn't reach far enough to check the front passenger side but they said it's probably not gutted as it would have been difficult to do the way the pipe curves over. So that seems to be why there is probably no CEL as the sensors are only on the two. Anyway, thought I'd post an update.

 

[TechGuru]

This sure as **** sounds like they installed O2 emulators and gutted your catalytic converters.

Remove the O2 sensors they installed from the exhaust, but don't unplug them and see if a Check Engine light comes on. If the light doesn't come on, they either disabled the O2 sensors or installed emulators. This is not legal, especially for them to represent as a viable repair.

As far as having a shop inspect the cats: taking off the O2 sensors and put an inspection camera in through the port. A shop could probably also tell you if they are O2 sensors or emulators.

Might not hurt to have an emissions test done now, regardless of when your sticker is up. That way you've got a paper trail within a few miles of their "repair" that shows the car is no longer capable of passing emissions. That right there gives you actual damages that you could prosecute for, in the form of the cost to repair the car to a state where you can pass emissions. Beyond that, if they've disabled the cats and the O2 sensors in the way that I think they have, there could be a good case to report them to the County regulatory body and the EPA.

One problem, if it's anything like Texas they test by just plugging a computer into the OBDII to check emissions. You'd have to find a place that will do the sensor up the tail pipe test and that also usually involves the use of a dyno.

 

[Tech By Trade]

Is the third actually a cat or is it just a resonator?

 

[Joe in NY]

It is a cat

 

[imp]

Is the third actually a cat or is it just a resonator?

@Tech By Trade
My 2004 4.0 Flex has only the 2 cats, one on either bank, wye pipe combines to dump into a plain, big old muffler. imp

 

[TechGuru]

Should to the following ALL should have 3 CAT's, they dump into a big CAT under the middle-front of the vehicle, the muffler is on the left side of rear between the rear door and tire. If one only has two I'm betting someone removed it!!!

 

[PJ_10]

One problem, if it's anything like Texas they test by just plugging a computer into the OBDII to check emissions.

That's how Illinois does the testing as well.

 

[imp]

Should to the following ALL should have 3 CAT's, they dump into a big CAT under the middle-front of the vehicle, the muffler is on the left side of rear between the rear door and tire. If one only has two I'm betting someone removed it!!!

@TechGuru 4973, above, is absent on my 2004, build date was earlier than 3-1-04. No evidence that the exhaust system was re-worked, all welds look like machine-precision. Wye pipe is continuous, straight, no evidence of muffler-shop intrusion. The 2409 is a big muffler. Is it possible that 3rd. cat might have been factory-included (or not) dependent on geographical shipment destination? Bought from original owner, a lady, with 90K on the meter. imp

 

[PJ_10]

1. I have seriously learned more here and online in the last few days than ever before about my Explorer's cats/exhaust system, thanks to you all. Today I talked to a few people that have worked for Ford dealers/corporate, and it sounds like the dealer/service guy may have intended to help me out cost-wise by doing the cat "repair" as they did and prob never expected me to even question it as far as the legality. Sounds like it's just a crappy situation overall just because of the labor costs, but I do appreciate the comments for sure.

 

[PJ_10]

The very busy recommended independent shop I went to today, the guys were all curious about the dealer "repair" and spent over an hour with me discussing everything, showing me what new cats look like, with no appointment, at zero charge to inspect (with cameras) everything the dealer worked on and give their opinions and what they'd recommend if I wanted to pursue some money back. I was shocked, for sure.

 

[TechGuru]

@TechGuru 4973, above, is absent on my 2004, build date was earlier than 3-1-04. No evidence that the exhaust system was re-worked, all welds look like machine-precision. Wye pipe is continuous, straight, no evidence of muffler-shop intrusion. The 2409 is a big muffler. Is it possible that 3rd. cat might have been factory-included (or not) dependent on geographical shipment destination? Bought from original owner, a lady, with 90K on the meter. imp

I think only @FordTechMakuloco would be able to answer this.

 

[96firephoenix]

That's how Illinois does the testing as well.

even cook county? or are you in a suburb?

I have seriously learned more here and online in the last few days than ever before about my Explorer's cats/exhaust system, thanks to you all. Today I talked to a few people that have worked for Ford dealers/corporate, and it sounds like the dealer/service guy may have intended to help me out cost-wise by doing the cat "repair" as they did and prob never expected me to even question it as far as the legality. Sounds like it's just a crappy situation overall just because of the labor costs, but I do appreciate the comments for sure.

Yea, the dealership is not the place to be offering unauthorized repairs. Also, not explicitly explaining that it is an unauthorized repair is fraudulent.

The very busy recommended independent shop I went to today, the guys were all curious about the dealer "repair" and spent over an hour with me discussing everything, showing me what new cats look like, with no appointment, at zero charge to inspect (with cameras) everything the dealer worked on and give their opinions and what they'd recommend if I wanted to pursue some money back. I was shocked, for sure.

What all did they find?

 

[imp]

@96firephoenix ......."even cook county?"

Born and raised there. We referred to it as "Crook County". imp

 

[imp]

@TechGuru
Found the answer! If it'll copy here: After 3-1-2004, they dropped the rear cat. Crazy car builders.......imp
To 3/1/04:

From 3/1/04

 

[TechGuru]

@TechGuru
Found the answer! If it'll copy here: After 3-1-2004, they dropped the rear cat. Crazy car builders.......imp
To 3/1/04:

From 3/1/04

I'm betting that matches up with when they switched to throttle by wire.

 

[imp]

I'm betting that matches up with when they switched to throttle by wire.

@TechGuru
That's really an interesting thought! That would imply that early 2004s had a plain old mechanical throttle body. I hate it when they do major design-changes mid-year......they must think like politicians! imp

 

[mountaineer2004]

I just checked my build date, says 03/04.
It has throttle by wire, and also has the rear (3rd) Cat.
Maybe they had too many old stock and just threw it on.

 

[imp]

I just checked my build date, says 03/04.
It has throttle by wire, and also has the rear (3rd) Cat.
Maybe they had too many old stock and just threw it on.

@mountaineer2004
There's always a fly in the ointment, yes? Wonder if Mounties and Exs were assembled on the same line? Would guess not, unless a batch of one kind, then followed by a batch of the other......Maybe the changeover for Mounties was different from Exs, or maybe the parts seller's info is wrong by some number of days. I'll go check my Ex's build date, and if it's BEFORE 3-1-04, I'll go looking for a nice cold St. Pauli Girl! imp