do all these things just ride lousy, is is there an issue I'm not seeing?

[Chrome_Rush]

Ok I have had my 91 4 door 5 speed 2wd for almost a year now and have replaced nearly everything under it that was bad and some that weren't trying to get it to ride better. (For the record I also had a 95 f-150 2wd supercab 5.0 which rode like a caddy, so I know it's not just because it's radius arm)

The biggest issue isn't so much that the ride is stiff, it's that it's not controlled, the thing seems to want to skip all over the place, anything more then small bumps it wants to literally jump it seems. And areas where there are a lot of consecutive bumps it wants to walk sideways, dirt roads with washboards evwn at lower speeds it's a fight just to keep it going strait. Is this just how these things drive and I should just come to terms with it? That's fine if it is, but if I can do something I will.

I replaced all the shocks with kyb g series about 6 months ago, it didn't help much, I replaced the radius arm bushings, I replaced all 4 ball joints as well as the front bearings, tie rods are still tight, I just had it aligned last month, everything is in spec, cross caster is good. Sway bar endlinks have definetely been replaced at some point, they aren't new but look just fine. I even replaced the leaf spring bushings in back (I installed warrior shackles) as well as a 1.5" coil spacer in front with brand new moog progressive rate 4x4 springs (the extra height didn't effect the way it drives at all after the alignment was done) actually the springs made the biggest difference, they seem much softer over smaller bumps and took a lot of the harshness out, but it still wants to hop around on larger bumps and washboards, my f-150 never did that even unloaded, more does my current 1990 gmc truck. The steering is a little loose due to a worn steering box which causes a bit of wander, but that's really not the issue. That I can deal with until I replace it.

So am I missing something, or is this just how these explorers react and drive over rough roads? I can't find any issues with it, neither did the place I took it to for alignment. When I hit a largish bump it seriously feels like I hit a curb with the front wheel, and it just says bang and jumps, it basically just doesn't feel like it obsorbs the larger bunos, rather it jumps and skips over them. Either it's normal for this thing or I'm nutty. Any input would be appreciated since you all drive the same rigs.

Also tires are only a few months old 31x10.5 bfg all terrain tires mounted on 15x8" aluminum wheels, I have the exact same tire on my 90 gmc which also came stock with a 235/75/15 lt tire and it actually made the ride softer on my gmc, didn't seem to change the ride of the explorer much if at all, so I assuming the tires aren't the culprit, it rode like this before and after the tires.

 

[natenkiki2004]

With the shocks and tires I have (see signature, they're all new this year) washboards while turning do get me going sideways a bit. Potholes on 1 side of the vehicle while going straight will require turning in the opposite direction to keep control.

I think it's just how these things drive. The suspension is pretty firm and handles like a full size dually truck with overload springs. I guess using passenger tires and airing them down a bit will help but I simply love how mine handles on pavement and turns. No body roll, cuts corners nicely. Yea, gravel roads kind of suck but once you know the limitations and have good tires & shocks, it's hard to lose total control.

 

[Centaurious]

The stock suspension is extremely stiff and this accounts for the harshness. Replacing the springs with softer ones and upgrading the anti-sway bars is the only true cure.

 

[Anime]

If you want a smooth cushy ride, you want something like Michelin LTX M/S2 tires and Monroe Sensa-trac shocks, and all rubber suspension bushings, no polyurethane anything, (except maybe the sway bars).

BFG All-Terrains do ride firm if not harsh. I've driven on them in Explorers and Rangers and the difference is VERY noticeable compared to Michelin LTX M/S or the older Cross Terrain SUV tires. LT tires have a firmer sidewall and are just heavier as well, plus they need higher tire pressure, AND you need firmer shocks to control the suspension. All that makes for a harsher ride.

The WAR153 shackles also change the geometry of the rear suspension via the arc of the leaf springs, so the springs are closer together and react differently than with standard length shackles. A solid axle is already going to bounce around when it hits bumps, a solid axle with longer shackles on the leaf springs is going to bounce more.

 

[2stroke]

I always found it had more to do with the wheel base than anything else. Why? I haven't the slightest idea, but I've found that explorers, short box rangers, cherokees, wranglers, blazers, etc. all loose control on washboards. Long box trucks, and other long wheel base vehicles seem to be fine. On the road, they drive like tanks. They can handle corners pretty well for a truck, but they still ride rough, which is what I like. As for the steering gear box, that's just how they are. Maybe brand new they aren't, but in just a couple of years they get a little slop.

I suppose this is a good time to ask if anyone has ever replaced the gearbox with a 2nd gen? They seem to hold up better, and might be a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[Wolfie_85]

They do ride a little rough. Washboards do take it one direction or another, but nothing unmanageable (to me, at least). I think it's just the nature of the beast. It doesn't make it unenjoyable to me, though. I guess I just sort of expected it. Though, a sloppy steering wheel would make it more work to control it.

 

[Chrome_Rush]

That's all what I figured, I figured it was just the nature of the beast. Like I said, I don't mind the stiffness, it's the mack of control that bothers me a bit sometimes. It's tendency to basically bounce around paired with the loose steering makes it a bit hard to control on rough patches. (tightening up the gear mesh on the steering box did help a bit, but I need to replace it with a new one) I love the truck, I just wish it were a bit easier to control sometimes. Also it's not the rear end that's the issue it's more the front. The moog coils helped a lot to take the stiffness out on smaller bumps, barely even feel them, medium bumps are also reduced in harshness, the bigger humps are just as harsh though. All of my buahings are rubber, aside from the RA bushings, those I did in poly, I don't want to do them again lol. I have read a few threads where people said the rear load assist coilover type shocks helped quite a bit with stability and it getting sideways on washboards, anybody running those to confirm that? As well as how much they lift the rear end, I would rather it be a little bit more stiff and be more controlled then softer and bouncing around all over the place. I also see a LOT of inconsistency on people saying how much it lifted the rear with those, I have read anywhere from 3/4" to 2" and everything in between. Anything I can add to make the thing more controlled over large bumps is something I want to look into.

Say what you will about the tires, they are a necessity in michigan winters with a 2wd truck in deep snow. They are amazing tires that last forever, and while the sidewall may be a touch stiffer it's also taller with the 31's, causing them to ultimately flex more. Same size for same size they may be a touch stiffer but going from a 235/75/15 passenger tire to the 31x10.5 all terrains I didn't feel a difference in the stiffness at all, and going from the stock good year wrangler tires in the same size of my gmc to the same tire 31x10m5 actually made the ride softer. The one you rode in with these tires must have had them aired way up. When they installed mine they put 50 psi in them. They do NOT need to be inflated anywhere near that much, and yes it was SUPER STIFF. I aired them down to 32psi on both the explorer and my gmc and did the chalk test on them. They still wear perfectly, and ride much better. I chalk tested at 28 psi also and they still wore flat and rode a little better but the cornering got muddy feeling, so I compromised and aired them up to 32. I can not tell the difference between these at 32psi and the stock type Firestone all season tires on the stock wheels at all in ride quality. They are not more stiff, people just run them at much higher pressure then needed for some reason, just because they have a higher max pressure doesn't mean you need to use it. It's because they are also meant to be used on much heavier vehicles that require more pressure. So thwy have the ability to accommodate that. That doesn't mean they require more air pressure, it just means they can handle more, for other applications. Just because my car can do 160mph doesn't mean I need to do it, same principle really. They don't actually require more pressure, they just have the ability to accommodate it.

 

[Anime]

If you want stiff and controlled handling, you aren't going to get a soft or smooth ride, at least not without a LOT of suspension tuning and a bunch of time and money spent doing it.

Bilstein shocks are the best way to get the most suspension control on an Explorer, hands down. All poly bushings all around. It makes it ride really firm, close to a sports car/SUV hybrid where you can feel small imperfections in the road, but on rough terrain or when it really matters, the handling is superb, for a top-heavy SUV with an I-beam front suspension and solid rear axle, at least.

You don't have to run the tires at high psi, 32-35 is probably ok if you're not towing or the vehicle isn't loaded much, but the triple-ply sidewall is just going to be stiffer than a regular two-ply sidewall, and the BFG A/T is just a heavier tire by a few pounds.


Overall there is only so much ride quality you are going to get with the I-beam suspension and solid rear axle. That's why Ford went to a different front suspension on the 2nd gens, and eventually a whole new suspension independent front and rear on the later models, and even a unibody on the latest model - it's easier to get a nicer ride with those than it is with thick, heavy steel beams or axles.

 

[Chrome_Rush]

All true, I think people tend to think tires are supposed to be run close to max, or that that's the proper inflation. I know people who run these on lighter vehicles like a ranger 28 psi and they wear perfectly even. Most people just think they ride rough because most people inflate them to where they should be for say a 3/4 ton truck that tows heavy loads, when they are just doing daily driver use on an explorer. For a lighter vehicle being around the max pressure is actually overinflated, I see them with a lot more wear in the center quite often from people running 45-50psi in them on a light vehicle. The weight of the vehicle more then anything is what will determine proper inflation psi. On the explorer, 28 psi is actually fine and rides softer, but decrease handling more then I would like, I like them at 32psi. Everything is a trade off though, I like the look of an A/T tire and I NEED the deep snow traction they offer.

As far as suspension I'm not a big fan of a really soft ride at all. I don't mind if it's a little stiff, it's when the ride isn't controlled I have an issue. I want it to stay planted better, less bouncing around and skipping over washboards. That's why I was looking at the coilover type rear shocks, almost everybody that installed then said it made the rear feel much more planted and that it didn't skip around and get sideways over washboards nearly as badly while just adding a small amount of firmness. Seems like something that may help, I hate to replace new shocks, but these are clearly not up to the task of properly controlling this suspension. I have always been a bilstein fan, I run a set of bilstein b8 sport shocks on my car. Like I said, I don't mind feeling the road, it's when I can't feel the road, like when it's skipping all over the place over bumps I have an issue. I don't expect any miracles, but anything that can improve on it is welcome.

 

[Anime]

28 psi is probably too low, keep in mind the "factory recommended" 26 psi on the door sticker was determined to be part of the cause for the Firestone fiasco, since the low pressure for a softer ride caused the tires to overheat. 32 psi sounds a lot better.

The BFG A/T does have great snow traction when new, and even has the snowflake-on-the-mountain symbol, so it's severe winter traction rated, but it seems that as the tread gets to 50%, that snow traction is greatly reduced, just something to bear in mind over the life of the tires.


I would NOT advise using "coilover type" shocks, or anything that puts a load on the shocks, either with springs or air. Putting a load on the shock bolts that are only designed to hold the shocks in place and withstand damping motion is asking for something to go wrong. I had air shocks before going to the Bilsteins, and they made a HUGE difference. Bilsteins also have a lifetime warranty, so they are great as the last shocks you'll ever buy.

 

[2stroke]

We run the Monroe sensa-tracs (coil helpers) on every truck we own. Thats a 2000 explorer, 92 chevy 1/2 ton, jeep cherokee, and 94 b4000 right now. Not a single problem of bolts busting off even in the heart of the rust belt. They last a good 75k miles of hard towing use. The reason you see such a difference in how much lift you get is because it depends how much you are sagged to begin with. If you have a dragging rear, expect over an inch of lift. If not, it will at least lift it 3/4".

The stresses of the dampening action are HUGE. The tension of the spring is tiny in comparison, don't worry about breaking anything. They do ride rough, but they plant your rear end solid on the ground. They are not too expensive, and made in the USA. There are plenty of other good shocks for the daily driver, but for towing/hauling, there is no competition.

For the front, I'm running the KYB gas-a-just on my b4000 now. They feel soft, but really dampen hard when you need it. They might be right up your alley, but I think my next ones will be back to monroe reflex. They just feel nice and solid.

 

[Chrome_Rush]

I normally don't run a tire much past half tread so I'm not terribly worried. Every tire is going to have greatly reduced snow traction without as much tread depth to bit and clear it, that's just common sense, and why for a tire I will run in deep snow once thwy get to about 40% depth, well before they hit the wear bars they get replaced. Buying tires more often in cheaper then a wreck.

As for the coilovers both make good points, it does add a slight amount more stress to the lower shock bolts, but as 2 stroke said, really not nearly as much as you might think, think about how hard it usually is to compress a good quality high pressure shock that still has a good gas charge. It's not easy, you usually have to put it on the ground and use your body weight to push it down, hell the bilsteins are usually extremely stiff, the ines on my focus ST i cant even compress by hand, nor even with my weight on it. that is still a lot of force and those shock bolts and studs are constantly handling that much force. I would bet the coilover type shocks for the rear only add about 10-15% more force on the lower mounting point then a basic shock, even less with a very stiff shock like a bilstein. The mounting point could always be strengthened a little. I'm a little tempted to try them. My rear didn't sag much if at all before I did the warrior shackles. I gained 1.75" from the shackles, did a 2" front lift and right now it sits perfectly even front to back. No more then a 1/4" difference between all 4 corners. I wouldn't mind the rear being boosted up a little more, 3/4-1" I could live with, escpecially if it makes the ride more stable. I DO NOT tow, or haul heavy loads very often. With it, I don't need the extra carrying capacity, but, if what I hear is true that it makes the ride more stable then I see it as a good mod. I hate to sped the money and find out it lifted me over an inch though, now I have to get into a bigger lift for the front so it doesn't look goofy. They actually make them for the front as well for a first gen, the lower mounting point is a known weak spot I wouldn't want to put any additional stress on, BUT, that doesn't mean I couldn't strengthen it. I don't think the fronts are designed to add extra weight carrying capacity (they are for the front afterall, I think they are more designed to add more stability. I may look at the radius arms and see if I can strengthen the lower mounting point for the shock. I may even cut it off and put in a stronger stud I can bolt on from the back that would be much stronger.

 

[Chrome_Rush]

After a little research, (still have more to do) I found that the springrate for the load carrier springs is only a whopping 37 lbs per inch. I'm not sure how long they are yet, I don't see that adding much stress at all to the lower shock mounts though.or it changing the ride quality much.

 

[Chrome_Rush]

One more thing I just thought about in regard to the load carrier coilover type shocks is my lift, with the 2" extra height front and rear my shocks are extended a bit more, which in regard to the coilover will not allow the spring on them to compress as much as they would at stock height since there is physically more space between the mounting locations, they sumply will not have the same amount of weight/pressure on them, this would make them less firm, and they would in turn also be putting less pressure on the mounting locations. Given they wouldn't compress as much with the lift the ride will be less harsh then it would be at stock height, but in cornering they will compress more stiffen up a bit more and help with cornering stability. And on bumps they should firm up the suspension.

driving home from work today I really paid attention to the way the suspension felt, and honestly, I think it's to soft and the shocks just can't control the wheel oscilations, escpecially up front. It honestly feels like the front wheels are hopping just like they would with a blown shock. The softer then stock moog springs are also giving me a lot of body roll in corners. I think the load shocks with strengthened lower mounts may very well half this as well as nose dive. I also notice a lot of weight transfer when I stop, excessive nose dive, and with the heavy nature of the rear of the suv it makes it even more pronounced when that weight transfers to the rear, which to me also feels a bit soft and really seems to make the rear drop. Feels like a seasaw when you stop lol. I think these front and rear would likely help out a lot with stability, cornering, weight tranfer, and hopefully keep up with the wheel oscilations up front better since the spring should in theory help with rebound before the next bumps, which should help the sloppy slow to respond issue with the current shocks. Does any of this make sense, or am I just really sleep deprived? It seems nobody really tries anything new with these things, I think I may be unto something.

There isn't alot on the Web about these being used for non load carrying means, but I did find a few, in particular a few guys running them in gmx typhoon trucks to alleviate there issue with the leafs being weak to get better stability and cornering, and they all seemed very happy with the outcome, one guy even out crossed his with the setup and claimed it rode slightly firmer but more planted and controlled and had much better cornering and weight transfer was greatly reduced. And he had 2" lowering blocks and claimed no height increase.

 

[Anime]

The Moog dual-rate springs are supposed to do the opposite - the reports from others with the CC868 springs are that body roll on corners is reduced, and nose dive during braking is reduced as well.

That said, it's hard to predict what a certain spring/shock combo will do, and non-linear (dual-rate/progressive rate) springs can sometimes work a shock harder and give undesireable effects.


I don't think adding a load-bearing spring on a shock is a solution to anything involving a vehicle that already has seperate springs and shocks. No matter how soft the spring on a shock is, what matters is that it is carrying any weight at all. When the shock becomes the bearer of the load in a system that already has a spring for that purpose, you get a really, really weird effect, just as if you had two regular springs.

Those load-carrying shocks, and similar air shocks and the like, are more of a band-aid type fix for people who care more about cosmetics and that the vehicle LOOKS level when carrying a heavy load, towing, or just having worn out springs - and they want a cheap and easy "fix" - even easier than shackles/spacers or new springs.

This isn't to say they don't give the desired effect, they of course do lift the vehicle, and provide more firmness, but they do it in the "wrong" way. Just think if instead of replacing springs, you just added two, three, four, five, six, etc. springs under an axle to lift a vehicle or change how the suspension felt. Every spring you add dramatically changes many things about the suspension because the load isn't just being carried by one spring in one location where the engineers designed it to be.

It's best to have the load carried in ONE axis. If you want more than one spring in a suspension, they need to be stacked, not side by side. Leaf springs have more than one spring, all stacked. Coilovers with more than one spring have them stacked as well.


Maybe you should swap the Moog springs with the old springs and see how it handles before you throw more parts at it. You may find that the Moog springs handle pretty well and your expectations just keep getting raised so you want more. You may also want to check your shocks, for leaks, damage, or even take them off and check how easily they compress. One shock going bad can affect the handling to the point it sways in corners.

 

[2stroke]

The Moog dual-rate springs are supposed to do the opposite - the reports from others with the CC868 springs are that body roll on corners is reduced, and nose dive during braking is reduced as well.

That said, it's hard to predict what a certain spring/shock combo will do, and non-linear (dual-rate/progressive rate) springs can sometimes work a shock harder and give undesireable effects.


I don't think adding a load-bearing spring on a shock is a solution to anything involving a vehicle that already has seperate springs and shocks. No matter how soft the spring on a shock is, what matters is that it is carrying any weight at all. When the shock becomes the bearer of the load in a system that already has a spring for that purpose, you get a really, really weird effect, just as if you had two regular springs.

Those load-carrying shocks, and similar air shocks and the like, are more of a band-aid type fix for people who care more about cosmetics and that the vehicle LOOKS level when carrying a heavy load, towing, or just having worn out springs - and they want a cheap and easy "fix" - even easier than shackles/spacers or new springs.

This isn't to say they don't give the desired effect, they of course do lift the vehicle, and provide more firmness, but they do it in the "wrong" way. Just think if instead of replacing springs, you just added two, three, four, five, six, etc. springs under an axle to lift a vehicle or change how the suspension felt. Every spring you add dramatically changes many things about the suspension because the load isn't just being carried by one spring in one location where the engineers designed it to be.

It's best to have the load carried in ONE axis. If you want more than one spring in a suspension, they need to be stacked, not side by side. Leaf springs have more than one spring, all stacked. Coilovers with more than one spring have them stacked as well.


Maybe you should swap the Moog springs with the old springs and see how it handles before you throw more parts at it. You may find that the Moog springs handle pretty well and your expectations just keep getting raised so you want more. You may also want to check your shocks, for leaks, damage, or even take them off and check how easily they compress. One shock going bad can affect the handling to the point it sways in corners.

You clearly haven't tried the helper spring shocks then. You can talk all the gibberish you want, but like I said, NOTHING compares to the monroe sensa-trac for towing. For a daily driver, The helper spring doesn't help at all. If they made a monroe sensa-trac without the coil spring, you would have a winner. Maybe the monroe reflex is the sensa-trac without helper spring?

 

[natenkiki2004]

2stroke, are you talking about these:
http://www.monroe.com/en-US/catalog/e-Catalog/58617

 

[Chrome_Rush]

Bandaid or not there aren't a lot of options with this vehicle, the stock springs are halfway to becoming a new fender right now, but the ride although a bit stiffer was about the same with them, as far as the skipping over bumps. And the moog coils definetely give more nose dive and more body roll then the stock ones. Maybe the people who replaced theirs replaced badly worn saggy springs, most reported almost an inch of lift from them, and I didn't see any more the a quarter inch in mine, so my stock speings were obviously still very good. Might be the difference why others reported improvement. It definetely rides smoother and softer over better roads, it's the bad roads and in michigan that's a lot of them, that are the issue. It's just not fun to drive something that's not well composed or controlled over rough roads. I just had the front shocks off when I put the lift in last month, and they are only a few months old, they were fine, not very hard to compress though, and the rebound on them is basically non existent. That's how they all were when I installed them, I actually mounted the lower portion, then had to actually by hand pull the shock rod up through the hole to bolt on the other side. I figured that's just how they are since they were like that when I installed them. I'm used to stuff with a high pressure charge that will fairly quickly extend itself back to full height if you compress it then let it go. As far as the load carrier shocks, the extremely low springrates on them really aren't going to take much if any weight off the main springs. 37lb per inch is basically nothing, but I can see the spring helping with rebound action since the speing will want to pop the sho k piston back up when it's compressed. This should result in very fast rebound for the shocks. Since there aren't really a lot of options I may go ahead and give them a try. I obviously need something that will rebound faster on the roads I drive. These should accomplish that. The rear springs are 37lb per inch rate, the fronts are an even smaller speing, likely only about 25lb per inch, couldn't find a spec on it but the length and diameter are both smaller and coil size the same, so springrate has to be lower. A rate that low likely won't have much effect on the speings already there at all, it will mainly only help control the shock rebound. The spring would only really take away from the moogs under hard cornering.

 

[Anime]

You clearly haven't tried the helper spring shocks then. You can talk all the gibberish you want, but like I said, NOTHING compares to the monroe sensa-trac for towing. For a daily driver, The helper spring doesn't help at all. If they made a monroe sensa-trac without the coil spring, you would have a winner. Maybe the monroe reflex is the sensa-trac without helper spring?

I've had Monroe air shocks and Monroe Sensatrac shocks on my vehicle.

I went to Bilstein instead. Big improvement in handling, firmer ride.

If you don't understand something, look it up and do your own research on it, don't just insult someone who's trying to explain the reasons behind why something isn't a good idea on a vehicle by saying whatever they write is gibberish.

Monroe does make their Sensa-Trac shocks for the Explorer without the spring. They are very good shocks for a smooth, comfortable ride.

 

[Chrome_Rush]

Research is what I'm doing to try to find the best course of action to get the vehicle where I want it. I may also replace the I beam bushings just to see if it helps any as well as the swap bat bushings, bit they all appear fine.

I also read up on a guy who did the load carriers on all 4 corners on a similar sized suv and reported the ride was actually improved, less body roll and nose dive, and ride height didn't change in front, but handling increased, ride quality just slightly firmed up but still comfortable. I actually found one guy who installed them on all 4 corners and had a brother with the same vehicle riding on bilsteins. He claimed after comparing them, (on rough terrain) that the bilsteins were very slightly better in regards to ride quality, but that the one with the load carriers had better rebound and seemed to just stay glued to the road even over rough surfaces. Both claimed the rear end lifted a decent amount, but they didn't have lifted vehicles either. Which will reduce the effectiveness of the spring some. And should result in less of a lifting effect. I evwn read where one guy like me had more issue with the front being soft and just used them in front with good results. From what I'm seeing, they really seem like a reasonably good option, and fairly inexpensive.

I'm also looking at the rancho 9000 adjustables. A lot of people seem very happy with them. One review actually stated they switched from the bilsteins to those and actually thought the rancho 9000 was a better shock and said the adjustability made a big difference in how it rode and handled depending on the setting.