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Dog issues-

Turdle

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Just out of curiosity what did you do to reprimand the dog?

As stated your dog feels it's alpha to the child. You are the alpha and the dog needs to know that you are alpha no matter what and it is not to act in that fashion unless you allow it.

The best thing to do would would be grab the dog put it on it's back and yell in it's face until the dog went into a submissive state.

I had terrible dominance issues with my German Shepherd when she because about 9 months old. She started stepping her boundaries on me and seeing what I would do. It took about 5 back rolls in the course of a month for her to remember her place in my house.
Then when she was about 2 I brought home a pitbull puppy that I had rescued and she wanted to play the dominance game with the pup. In this situation the pup was too little to take dominance so me being the pack leader had to show her that they were on the same level but I was in control.
She went after the pup maybe 3 times the first week but each time I gave her a back roll and good yelling right in her face. And the behavior stopped and they are best friends and inseparable now.
10-31-07_1546.jpg


A lot of folks seem to find this as harsh treatment. But it is exactly how it would be handled in the wild and needs to be handled in the home.
The dog needs to understand that it is never acceptable to snap or growl at a child.
And if a stern back roll and yelling will do it. It needs to be done.

I wouldn't be at the point of getting rid of the dogs just yet. There is still the opportunity for change but do not let the child and dog be alone together. If the dog shows any sign any sign at all it needs to be put on it's back instantly and held there until it goes submissive. If it wants to squirm let it squirm until it goes submissive. But that dog needs to know you are the boss and you will not allow it to behave in that fashion.

I said

"BAD DOG!!" and she rolled onto her back.

3 times
 



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Sojourner

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Seriously, as others have suggested here, look in to Cesar Milan's books. If you can get them at a library, that is great. If you have a friend who has the books, even better. He really DOES know his stuff. I watch him all the time and some of his tips have helped with our four dogs at home. You could probably watch his shows and pick up a lot too. You should not have to give up your best friends because of discipline problems! ;)
 






Explorer#2

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A lot of folks seem to find this as harsh treatment. But it is exactly how it would be handled in the wild and needs to be handled in the home.


This is as true as it gets. People that have seen us reprimand Mars at the house think its a little harsh but this is what we say, if dogs reprimand each other in this manner then why wouldnt it work for us to do it to the dog.
 






unclemeat

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While we are talking Ceasar's way, how often do you walk the dogs, and for how long, and who leads the walk?

Daily walks (exercise) are very important. When you walk the dog on a leash, the dog is never allowed to go first. The walk is just that, a short leash, dog (s) behind the pack leader, stopping only when the pack leader says stop. "be the pack leader"

I was not a dog person before we got our first dog. So I have a lot to learn, but since Ceasar I am much better able to handle all dogs, and I am much more satisfied with my own dogs behavior.
 






Black92LX

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I haven't really drank the Cesar Kool-Aid. I have seen the show and it's pretty good.
I prefer the Methods of the Monks of New Skete
These are great books. I read them 2 times over along with probably 20 other books before my Lilli came home and I found these methods to be the most useful.
http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/books/bk.html

I got the books from the library.
 






Black92LX

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I said

"BAD DOG!!" and she rolled onto her back.

3 times

I have found that if it's something the dog knows she is not supposed to do just verbally reprimanding her will work. But if it's a new behavior and one this serious their needs to be a physical reinforcement as well.
It looks funny but you need to grab the dog flip it over hold it down in the neck area (don't choke the dog) and get nose to nose yelling as loud as you can.
That's exactly how it is done in the wild the are grabbed by the troat pinned down and growled at until the become submissive.
 






gijoecam

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I have found that if it's something the dog knows she is not supposed to do just verbally reprimanding her will work. But if it's a new behavior and one this serious their needs to be a physical reinforcement as well.
It looks funny but you need to grab the dog flip it over hold it down in the neck area (don't choke the dog) and get nose to nose yelling as loud as you can.
That's exactly how it is done in the wild the are grabbed by the troat pinned down and growled at until the become submissive.

Not trying to start a debate, but according to Cesar and a couple other Ethologists' books I've read, dogs often perceive the yelling as instability on the part of the leader. Observing dogs in a pack responding to some inappropriate behavior, they don't grown hiss, and scream when they are making the correction. They make a brief sound or mild bark accompanied with the 'bite'. They don't pin the dog down except when they're being challenged for dominance in an agressive fight, and that's not generally what domesticated dogs do.

More communication takes place in the wild long before the confrontation... Their body language communicates their intention, and Cesar teaches how to recognize it and redirect it before it escalates, in much the same way a dog in a pack would be corrected.

-Joe
 






Turdle

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Ok
I have to throw this in there-
I'm not new to dogs-or training.

I have had a few dogs-
Namely-I had a Rotwieler straight out of Warnock--his name was Warnock's Lightning Coda (called him Cody)
I studded him out and got the pick of this litter--Donner Mit Blitzen (called him Donner)

These dogs were both trained by myself, with guidance from a relative who is a professional dog trainer. My kids could grab their tongues and lay on them-never a growl. It isn't like I don't know how to show my dominance-

But obviously none of you have ever had a Jack Russel Terrier.

They are bred to hold a badger at bay in a tunnel for days if that's what it takes for you to dig to where he is--

You can't expect obedience and submission from a breed like that. I have a stack of books to help dealing with the particular breed. They all say the same thing. There is no breaking this breed.

Terriers are the worst for obedience.
I have never seen anything or anybody with this much tenacity.
Once he is fixed on something he will be on it until it is gone. We had a mouse get in the house once. He knew where it was and stayed right there for about 30 hours until it finally was caught in the trap.
I showed it to him, he sniffed it and laid down for a long nap.

I still have yet to hear of a good terrier training story.

Oh
When we do go out on a leash-there is no way they will stay with us-
We get on bikes and let them pull us around town--:D
 






Black92LX

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Not trying to start a debate, but according to Cesar and a couple other Ethologists' books I've read, dogs often perceive the yelling as instability on the part of the leader. Observing dogs in a pack responding to some inappropriate behavior, they don't grown hiss, and scream when they are making the correction. They make a brief sound or mild bark accompanied with the 'bite'. They don't pin the dog down except when they're being challenged for dominance in an agressive fight, and that's not generally what domesticated dogs do.

More communication takes place in the wild long before the confrontation... Their body language communicates their intention, and Cesar teaches how to recognize it and redirect it before it escalates, in much the same way a dog in a pack would be corrected.

-Joe

No problems with debate there are different theories and processes. Like I stated before I haven't drank Caesar's Kool Aid yet because it hasn't been effective for me.
The slight bite and the yip are for minor infractions in behavior. Watch a mom put down her pup when they try to take the alpha roll.

That's exactly what his dog was trying to do take and maintain dominance over the child. In this instance the child is not capable of explaining to the dog who has dominance.
That's where the poster needs to come in in full force immediately.

We aren't talking about a dog stealing a sock here. It's a dominance issue with the child that could lead to very serious consequences if the dog is not severely reprimanded.

Penalties need to be given on the basis of the severity of the infraction. A back roll isn't warranted in every situation but defiantly a child is snapped or growled at.

I m not sure what breeds you are familiar with but I have a pit and a German Shepherd. They are very much domesticated and very much about pinning each other down.
When one does something that pisses the other off.
 






Explorer#2

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But obviously none of you have ever had a Jack Russel Terrier.
They are bred to hold a badger at bay in a tunnel for days if that's what it takes for you to dig to where he is--

And there tails are cut to the length of a hand so that when they are down in holes you can reach down the hole and grab them by the tail and pull them out.

We had two for a while when I was still at home and they were mother and daughter and yes this kind of training worked with them. My parents did most of the training becasue my sister and I were still little but I remember it and it worked well with them so why not try it with our dog. Now this doesnt mean that they didnt do things that a Terriers do, jtsmith you know what im talking about, but they were submissive to us and if we gave them a command they did it without question. As to choking the dog, we never choke the dog he gets a quick nip with our hands. Even if our hands stay there we arent choking him its just an effort to keep him down. If I have him by the neck even with no pressure he isnt going to fight me. People think we are choking him but we arent we are just grabbing him like his mother did when he was a little puppy.

Oh
When we do go out on a leash-there is no way they will stay with us-
We get on bikes and let them pull us around town--:D

In doing this you have told the dog that he is the boss, he tells you were you go you are not telling him. Trust me if I can keep a full grown Grate Dane at my side at all time you can do it with a Terrier. To keep him close to you when you walk get a shorter lease and hold it so that he cant get more than a foot away from you. Yes it will suck for the first part but he is learning that you are the boss and you say where the pack goes. If he wants to stop and smell something you have to stop and let him do it. Dont just stop at everything. Stop on your terms if you dont want to stop it doesnt matter what the dog whats. If he doesnt get to smell that smell he isnt going to die. This is all part of making the dog happy. Now HE WILL NOT BE HAPPY AT FIRST, but after he understands his new place in the pack he will feel much better. He will love you for it. Trust me there is no more comforting of a feeling than standing in the front yard at night, while other fraternities on the row are throwing parties(watching to make sure the house doesnt get fed with), and having this big Great Dane come up and lean his whole weight on me. BTW, He comes up to my mid thigh and Im 6-4
 






CDW6212R

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... 30 hours until it finally was caught in the trap.
I showed it to him, he sniffed it and laid down for a long nap.
...:D

That's good, I can visualize that. Give it a go for a short while, then...
 






99SportX

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We had a wire hair fox terrier. She has passed now, but she was a great dog. Definitely not obedient though. She did what she wanted, when she wanted. Sit, shake a paw, and lay down is all she could do.

As a young child, I had plenty of chances to observe this animal. I quickly learned that if I wanted to get bit, I would stick my hand inside her kennel. That was her space, and she was protective of it. She was also real protective of my mom, and one time on a walk, she attacked another dog and drew blood. It was a pretty tiny dog also, another terrier.

We had to be careful when my little cousins came over since she was wild, and sometimes unpredictable. A child can easily do something to "set the dog off" without knowing it and their hand gets a light bite. I just learned to keep my face out of the way when playing with her, and it was all fine. She just did what she wanted most of the time, and we just accepted it.

I will say though, I never got injured by the dog, and the times I did it was extremely minor. A small dent in my skin from a tooth. I saw it coming by hearing the growl but didn't stop. lol
 






unclemeat

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The important part of Ceasars methods is not dog training, it is human training. As the pack leader you are the one that needs behavior modification. All dogs behave in a similar fashion. Being able to recognize and react to the behavior is the trick.
 






Explorer#2

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Yeah i dont care what kind of dog it is if you act as the pack leader and use body language that the dog understands he will listen to you.

Last night I was on the roof of our house and yelled down at mars to lay down. He looked up at me and hit the deck. I was three stories up in the air and there was no reason for him to listen to me other than he know that I am one of the pack leaders so he should do what I tell him to.
 






Turdle

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Yeah i dont care what kind of dog it is if you act as the pack leader and use body language that the dog understands he will listen to you.

Last night I was on the roof of our house and yelled down at mars to lay down. He looked up at me and hit the deck. I was three stories up in the air and there was no reason for him to listen to me other than he know that I am one of the pack leaders so he should do what I tell him to.

My previous dogs would do just that also. I trained them from far away, just in case they were across the street and about to run in front of a car-for instance. They would literally fall to the ground when I said "DOWN", and stay put until I said "come"

I'm not trying to argue-just stating a point. These dogs are different.

This will sound mean-but here goes.

I have tried to get on top of Nigel. I can mount him without argument.
To grab his neck though-would result in me killing him before he submits.
I've been there--

I have been on top of him-holding his neck down and he will not give up-even with my knee on his chest, and both hands around his neck.
Right after an incident like this he will come up to me with his tail between his legs and act very sorry, wanting to make up. At that point, he submits.



However-he's the dog which is good with kids-he'll growl and move away. He knows his place, but being the first "investigator" is his instinct. You cannot train instinct out of a dog.
If he sees a squirrel, or anything else he wants to check out he is gone. There is no stopping him.

Since Natty dominates him, well, she has to get there first. This causes a comical drama when they get loose--

In fact-
Natty was just about 1 year old when she tried to beat Nigel across the street after a squirrel. Someone came in the front door and out they went.

( Our squirrels taunt the dogs though the windows)

Anyway-she went right out in front of a car and was hit-breaking her pelvis and one back leg.

ok-she healed up well.

Then-one evening we went on a short drive in the country -using the old pickup truck
Nigel only was changing to my side of the seat for a better view of the cows.
Natty thought he was after something and jumped across my lap, straight out the window. We were rounding a curve so I was going about 10 mph.
I looked in the mirror to see her roll, sit and wait for me to turn around.
 






Explorer#2

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http://youtube.com/results?search_query=dog+whisper+jack+russell+terriers

you can do it with jack russell terriers. And yes it does take a long time and the dog will fight it. If somebody was holding you do you would fight right? Him working off his energy is part of what ceaser does

PS this is one thing I love about this forum, me a jtsmith are going back and fourth on this and then trun around and he is trying to help me figure out what is wrong with my third tail light. see http://explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214066
 






Bill Kemp

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Git rid of the dog.
People, especially grandkids, are a hell of a lot more important than a dog.
Feel bad getting rid of it? How would you feel taking your grandkid to the Hosp. to get stiches in his face?
Not even a question in my mind.

And, yes I have put down a dog for just that same kind of behavior. No one was hurt but, I was not going to wait untill the dog really hurt a kid before getting rid of him. ONE strike & your out!

Not to mention the tension it would cause with your kids (grandchilds parents) if their child was deformed by your dog and you knew that the dog was a problem.

Send the dog down the road......
 












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"U can du et":D
 



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Turdle

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Nigel drooled all over my keyboard just then-
I've been fighting it all night. After a round through the dishwasher and being taken out to the air compressor a few times it seems to be working.

ok back on track

I'm not getting much firm support from the rest of the family. I guess we'll have to try these methods. I'm open minded.
 






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