Driver side upper control arm bolts & C/C adj plates

[koda2000]

Some of you may recall a problem I had with an alignment shop installing camber/caster adjusting bolts and plates on my daughter's 2000 Mountaineer about a year ago. The issue was that the plates kept moving and throwing her alignment out. I had the original alignment shop re-adjust and re-tighten the bolts once and a few months later I noticed that they'd slipped again and it ruined 2 good Michelin LTX tires. I got the alignment shop to give me a deal on 2 new tires, but I took the truck to my regular alignment guy for an alignment. I made sure he tightened the hell out of the bolts after getting the truck in alignment, but it appears the alignment has slipped again (not as bad as before, but the tires are wearing more on the inside and the steering wheel is no longer quite centered).

The shop that did the original alignment had said that they couldn't understand why the alignment kept going out and that there must be something wrong with the truck. I called BS on that because we had put 60,000 miles on that truck since we bought it and never had any alignment or tire wear issues with the OE control arm bolts/plates. The only reason I decided to get an alignment was because I replaced the upper and lower ball joints. I've had 4 Explorers/Mountaineers aligned at my regular shop and they never needed to install C/C kits to get the alignment w/in factor specs.

So now I'm thinking that perhaps the issue is with the alignment plates or bolts the tire shopped used. I don't know why they decided it needed adjustable caster/camber bolts/plates on the driver's side only, or what quality of kit they installed. Now I'm thinking maybe I should go back to stock OE bolts and C/C plates (either that or Moog C/C kits). This truck has never been in an accident or had problems before the alignment was done.

Does anyone who has installed C/C kits still have their original OE bolts and plates that they're willing to part with? Or do you think I should buy the Moog C/C kits and have them installed?

Someone here suggested I double nut the bolts or but Locktite on them, but that shouldn't be necessary IMO. Maybe it's the grade/quality of the bolts?

 

[allmyEXes]

Do you remember what brand UCAs that you used? I used a budget brand and it wouldn't plug right in the upper brackets. I had to put each end of the UCA in a big vice with a piece of pipe and shift each bushing over an eighth of an inch and had to spread the UCA frame brackets (with a porta power spreader jaw) to get them to slip in and out easily.
I do remember tightening the snot out of them with a cheater pipe on the end of the 1/2" breaker bar to close the brackets back up so they wouldn't slip. I need to look at them and I will when I change outer tie rods that need it badly. Mine has the original bolts and plates.

 

[Hacra]

Did you check that the camber bolt is installed the right way, they can be installed "backwards", as the "washer" hole is offset which will mess up the settings, also are the aftermarket c/c kits egg shape from both sides or just one? (per control arm side). The original one has egg shaped adjustment side only on one side.

Reference picture (this is some northstar manufacturing kit, resembles OEM):

I'd assume the kits which have egg shaped form on both sides of control arm side (uh...), are more prone to slipping as there's not much holding them still at bumps and vibration.

 

[allmyEXes]

good illustration

 

[poker4me007]

After getting an alignment I torqued the camber bolts to 110 lbs and marked them with white paint,then took a picture of them.This way I can tell if they moved.
The nut turned probably at least a full turn or more right after the alignment.I doubt they used a torque wrench. I used the Mevotech Supreme camber bolts on mine.
This was a couple of months ago and i'm going to recheck torque,last time I looked they didn't look like they moved.

 

[boominXplorer]

I gorilla tighten my upper control arms on my ranger on 35s and eggcentric cam adjusters. I can tighten mine easily with a 24" long ratchet leaning over the tire at ride height (8" of lift helps).

On stock configuration it's hard to gorilla tighten those at ride height. My small impact will fit in the front but the rear bolts are a pain. I suggest right after alignment take the front wheels off one at a time, place a jack under the lower ball joint and lift to compress the suspension. Then crank down on those upper bolts.

The factory adjusters are square so they are going to staying still. The factory bolts also have yellow loc tite on them and I'm not adding it to make getting the cams out harder.

 

[410Fortune]

Also the bolts should be tightened with the truck on the ground, weight on the suspension. This is setting the pre load on those bushings, If they are tightened up and then the truck set on the ground you can rip the bushings and have all sorts of issues trying to keep those tight

 

[CDW6212R]

I've also installed several of those CC kits. The bolts and washers are a lower quality that the original hardware, they look like old typical grade five imported junk. The CC washers gain more alignment because they are able to rotate, unlike the OEM squared off washers they replace.

I would suspect the UCA's aren't fitting in the pockets well, kind of like allmyEXes described. If you think it is fitting well enough, I'd tighten them a bunch, and add some loctite to them. If there is room, add a nut, or if not, use green loctite(it weeps into threads, and is similar in strength to blue/medium loctite).

I have some OEM bolts and washers left. I would prefer the OEM bolts too, but the camber washer kits require the special camber bolts. Those bolts are not round, they have a big slice cut out of the threaded section.

 

[koda2000]

I'll have to look at the C/C kit bolts & nuts. I don't recall which way they were installed off hand. The only thing I recall was that they looked a bit wimpy to me.

As far as the nut's being tight, I watched my alignment guy (who I trust) tighten them and he even got a someone to help him tighten the hell out of the bolts using a very long box wrench. I know they were tight when he was done and it hasn't moved much since he tightened it (about a year ago), but I know it's move a little now because the steering wheel is no longer centered. It's not off by much, but it is off again.

I'm going to stop by the alignment shop and ask my alignment guy about it, but I suspect the issue has to do with the C/C kit or it's installation. The only thing he said when he did the alignment was that he found it strange that the other shop only installed the C/C kit on one side.

The bolts with tightened with the wheels on the alignment shops service lift, with the vehicle's full weight in the wheels.

The upper control arms I installed were Moog service-grade from RockAuto.

What doesn't make sense to me is that if the front end can be put into correct alignment and then stuff moves it has to have something to do with the C/C kit, the kits installation or its quality. I remember that when the first alignment was done and the kit was installed I was not charged anything for the kit. Maybe it was just some crap they had laying around. I was also surprised that it was even necessary.

I think I should probably just order a Moog C/C kit, have it installed and re-aligned again. Maybe I can get my alignment shop to do it for free, but even if I have to pay them that's okay as I don't feel like screwing with it. Those bolts are a PITA and I have better things to do with my time.

Thanks for all the input ans suggestions.

 

[Hacra]

Because of the annoyance with the adjustment and the possibility of camber/caster settings moving easily on their own to whatever direction, i have been planning to make my own upper control arms with uniball type connectors where the bushing normally is; cut that part off and replace with these, should stay put:

(i guess this goes more to modified forum, but oh well...)

 

[CDW6212R]

From the several kits I've bought, and tried various brands, I think they are all equal in quality. From Moog, to AC Delco, they all looked the same to me. The Moog caber washer only kits looked like slightly better steel, those washers were grey instead of chromed.

If you have not lowered or lifted the height, I'd go with the Moog washer only kit. That one doesn't provide as much additional adjustment, and the OEM bolts can be used with them.

 

[koda2000]

From the several kits I've bought, and tried various brands, I think they are all equal in quality. From Moog, to AC Delco, they all looked the same to me. The Moog caber washer only kits looked like slightly better steel, those washers were grey instead of chromed.

If you have not lowered or lifted the height, I'd go with the Moog washer only kit. That one doesn't provide as much additional adjustment, and the OEM bolts can be used with them.

Yes, I saw the very substantial looking Moog washers/plates only, but I want to replace the bolts and nuts too. All the other aftermarket stuff (even the Moog kits that contain everything) look kind off flimsy to me. While search for Moog kit on eBay (to compare prices to RA) I came across the below kit. It comes up under the Moog part number but says NAPA.

Any one used the below C/C kit? IDK what the plates do, but it says it fits Explorer/Mountaineer and Ranger. It has good reviews. Maybe the plates help to hold things in place?

Alignment Caster/Camber Kit Front Moog K80065 | eBay

 

[allmyEXes]

I need more positive camber and my UCA bolts are bottomed out to the outside with nowhere else to go. It looks as if I need to dremel the slots out some to the outside. I don't see a cam adjustment kit that will help me any unless I make it where the UCA bushings and bolts can slide further out. Am I missing something? Or are my budget uppers a tad shorter from the bushings to the ball joint?
here is the installation instructions
https://www.carid.com/images/moog/pdf/ck8710t-installation-instructions.pdf
ADDED:Maybe I just think that they are slid all of the way out. I still have the stock bolts and cams in mine...

 

[swshawaii]

Phil, don't think that kit is Moog. If you compare the Moog K80065 3/8" square holes are oriented different.

OP from linked thread below may have had difficulty turning the nuts because they are eccentric lock nuts.

Replace 2-Piece Upper Control Arm w/ 1-Piece

 

[koda2000]

Phil, don't think that kit is Moog. If you compare the Moog K80065 3/8" square holes are oriented different. Past thread:

Replace 2-Piece Upper Control Arm w/ 1-Piece

I don't see that is says it's a Moog part, but it came up while searching eBay for the Moog Problem Solver CC kit part number. I'm just curious about the gold colored plates.

 

[swshawaii]

If those are locking plates for the UCA's you may be on to something. I'm trying to visualize how they would install.

 

[koda2000]

If those are locking plates for the UCA's you may be on to something. I'm trying to visualize how they would install.

IDK. Maybe I should print out the photo and show it to my alignment guy.

 

[Turdle]

Is it possible the "D" hole has wallered out and no longer holds? This happens easily to one of the eccentrics, or both, believe it or not.
the damage usually happens during the alignment if the bolts are not loosened enough and the square ratchet hole is not used for forcing the arm into position. If the bolt is used for the force, it may strip the d hole.

 

[swshawaii]

Looks like that Ebay seller has the wrong NAPA (264-2953) part number. NAPA pic appears the same w/o the bracket plates.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NCZ2642953

Don't know if it matters, but did the shop install the small washers under the eccentrics?

 

[koda2000]

Is it possible the "D" hole has wallered out and no longer holds? This happens easily to one of the eccentrics, or both, believe it or not.

Perhaps. I'd have to take it apart to tell. That's why I want to replace everything. If it were spring-time I would take it apart and check it out, but my weather has returned to winter this week.