Exhaust leaks, Ford Explorers and the environment.

[ExPlat]

While musing about this exhaust smell in our Exploers I wonder if we're not missing the big picture here.

If Explorers have cracked or leaking exhaust manifolds this must allow untreated emissions into the atmosphere. Forget about people getting sick while driving an Explorer, the fines levied by the EPA and CARB for bypassing the catalytic converters will be huge! Follow the money, a few lawsuits to fix a few cars is nothing compared to crossing paths with those two agencies. Ask Volkswagen...
Ford will do anything it can to avoid blame for environmental malfeasance.

 

[blwnsmoke]

A defect like a pin hole in an exhaust manifold will not result in fines. This was nothing deliberate like VW or FIAT with their emissions cheat. This is a straight up defect which the warranty or recall will take care of.

 

[NEWPORTNJ]

A defect like a pin hole in an exhaust manifold will not result in fines. This was nothing deliberate like VW or FIAT with their emissions cheat. This is a straight up defect which the warranty or recall will take care of.

Also you will have other car manufacturers pushing the envelope on this issue being that ford has the number SUV sales in the market since 2011.

 

[thefranchise713]

Yeah, there's a whole intent thing here that Ford hasn't risen to to warrant huge fines at yet.

Shame they can't fine those Truck Bros who install DPF deletes and roll coal for sport.

 

[Sixonemale]

While musing about this exhaust smell in our Exploers I wonder if we're not missing the big picture here.

If Explorers have cracked or leaking exhaust manifolds this must allow untreated emissions into the atmosphere. Forget about people getting sick while driving an Explorer, the fines levied by the EPA and CARB for bypassing the catalytic converters will be huge! Follow the money, a few lawsuits to fix a few cars is nothing compared to crossing paths with those two agencies. Ask Volkswagen...
Ford will do anything it can to avoid blame for environmental malfeasance.

Again this situation has lots of moving parts, but this is clearly a leak or a very minor source even if all Explorers with leaks were added up in one area. IMO this would add up to negligible air pollution, but perception can dwarf reality.

A defect like a pin hole in an exhaust manifold will not result in fines. This was nothing deliberate like VW or FIAT with their emissions cheat. This is a straight up defect which the warranty or recall will take care of.

There are willful and non willful violations. Non-willful can be associated negligence, mistake or conduct that is the result of a good faith misunderstanding of the requirements of environmental rules, regulations or laws. Willful is knowing about the requirements of the law and then doing something in violation of the law and choosing not to do anything about it. In this case it could boil down to when did Ford know about this problem and how long did it take them to react or solve it.

In summary, this is probably far more of a potential safety issue than a potential environmental air quality violation.

 

[J_C]

Heh, playing devil's advocate, since you know it "must" allow untreated emissions in the atmosphere, but Ford doesn't, any emissions are all on you if you continue to drive the vehicle.

 

[ExPlat]

You sound like my wife, 'it's all your fault'... LOL!

 

[cwescapexlt4x4]

Wow, how things take a turn by armchair lawyers and now and environmental "emissions cheat" by Ford... sorry but not buying this.

 

[Sixonemale]

Heh, playing devil's advocate, since you know it "must" allow untreated emissions in the atmosphere, but Ford doesn't, any emissions are all on you if you continue to drive the vehicle.

I'm not an attorney, but I don't think your argument holds water, because you bought a vehicle that was built and sold that was required to meet specific federal and/or state emission standards. If the vehicle has a defective part, I would imagine the responsibility would be Ford's to fix that part whether or not you know it's defective. Right now in regard to the exhaust entering the cabin and/or carbon monoxide issues, we are all in limbo until the current investigation concludes itself. On the other hand for example, let's say you disconnected emissions device to get better miles per gallon, that would be a willful example of violating environmental federal and/or state law that would or could result in some sort of penalty if someone could prove that you actually knowingly did this.

 

[Floatman]

A defect like a pin hole in an exhaust manifold will not result in fines. This was nothing deliberate like VW or FIAT with their emissions cheat. This is a straight up defect which the warranty or recall will take care of.

Since day one Ford has said they can't find a problem, can't duplicate the problem or lately that law enforcement fleet modifications caused the problem. It has been reported by various Explorer owners of different models and engines, since 2011 for crying out loud!
It's NOT ok for Ford to finally acknowledge that there is a problem and not sustain some kind of penalty. You can't tell me that they haven't been getting ready for when the crap will finally have to be dealt with. How did they have new exhaust parts ready so quickly for the TSB that they are acting on now?

If Ford wasn't extremely worried about losing the police fleet accounts across North America, they would not have done anything. Just deny/deny/deny!
I have owned 15 F150 trucks over the last 40 years, and only had one that ever went back to the dealer for an issue. I have to wonder why Ford didn't step up to the plate when this issue first arose? F150s are their biggest money maker, and I'd bet that this latest model of Explorer is number 2, by profit margin!

 

[J_C]

I'm not an attorney, but I don't think your argument holds water,

Morally it does.

On the other hand for example, let's say you disconnected emissions device to get better miles per gallon, that would be a willful example of violating environmental federal and/or state law that would or could result in some sort of penalty if someone could prove that you actually knowingly did this.

Of course the law makes this distinction, it's only reasonable. Claiming you know there's a leak and that there should be a lawsuit about emissions while you continue to drive it, not so reasonable. If that's really important to someone, the last thing they would do is keep driving.

Personally I believe in self-help. I put a CO meter in mine and it read zero. Granted it wasn't the 3.7L EB in LEO vehicles that stirred up the most fuss.

 

[Sixonemale]

Since day one Ford has said they can't find a problem, can't duplicate the problem or lately that law enforcement fleet modifications caused the problem. It has been reported by various Explorer owners of different models and engines, since 2011 for crying out loud!
It's NOT ok for Ford to finally acknowledge that there is a problem and not sustain some kind of penalty. You can't tell me that they haven't been getting ready for when the crap will finally have to be dealt with. How did they have new exhaust parts ready so quickly for the TSB that they are acting on now?

If Ford wasn't extremely worried about losing the police fleet accounts across North America, they would not have done anything. Just deny/deny/deny!
I have owned 15 F150 trucks over the last 40 years, and only had one that ever went back to the dealer for an issue. I have to wonder why Ford didn't step up to the plate when this issue first arose? F150s are their biggest money maker, and I'd bet that this latest model of Explorer is number 2, by profit margin!

I think Blwnsmoke was referring to an environmental fine associated with an emissions exceedance. There have been lawsuits filed and they have actually agreed to one settlement so far. Depending on the severity of the issue(s), who knows, there could be some sort of fine and possibly another TSB and/or Recall.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Since day one Ford has said they can't find a problem, can't duplicate the problem or lately that law enforcement fleet modifications caused the problem. It has been reported by various Explorer owners of different models and engines, since 2011 for crying out loud!
It's NOT ok for Ford to finally acknowledge that there is a problem and not sustain some kind of penalty. You can't tell me that they haven't been getting ready for when the crap will finally have to be dealt with. How did they have new exhaust parts ready so quickly for the TSB that they are acting on now?

If Ford wasn't extremely worried about losing the police fleet accounts across North America, they would not have done anything. Just deny/deny/deny!
I have owned 15 F150 trucks over the last 40 years, and only had one that ever went back to the dealer for an issue. I have to wonder why Ford didn't step up to the plate when this issue first arose? F150s are their biggest money maker, and I'd bet that this latest model of Explorer is number 2, by profit margin!

What the heck are you talking about? Ford has maintained so far that the PIUs issue is separate from the Civilian complaints. As stated, most PIUs use the 3.7L motor, not the 3.5 that Civilians use in the majority of them. Ford has stated that they have found SOME cracks/holes in the exhaust manifolds (this is new to everyone). Ford has also stated that they have found modifications that were not plugged properly or sealed by AFTERMARKET companies (not Ford's fault). Ford has stated that they will pay to have these areas fixed caused by AFTERMARKET companies (they are clearly doing this as a Good Faith gesture).

So far the PIUs in MA that have been looked at have been fixed by Ford and were caused by AFTERMARKET companies.

There are TWO different issues at hand so far and so far Ford has proven that they are two different issues. We need to wait and see what is going on with the Civilian version investigation and what comes of it.

I'm not sure what you are talking about in regards to exhaust parts. Ford has released 2 if not 3 TSBs on civilian models. Having a TSB and repair process is not Ford denying that there was ever an issue. The fact that the TSB doesn't fix all the civilian versions is an issue and glad that the NHTSA is investigating it AGAIN. Ford has had exhaust parts for civilian versions for a long time. Members have had them installed quite a while ago and have claimed to have helped but not eliminate it.

No clue why you quoted me and went off on a rant towards my post.

 

[Sixonemale]

What the heck are you talking about? Ford has maintained so far that the PIUs issue is separate from the Civilian complaints. As stated, most PIUs use the 3.7L motor, not the 3.5 that Civilians use in the majority of them. Ford has stated that they have found SOME cracks/holes in the exhaust manifolds (this is new to everyone). Ford has also stated that they have found modifications that were not plugged properly or sealed by AFTERMARKET companies (not Ford's fault). Ford has stated that they will pay to have these areas fixed caused by AFTERMARKET companies (they are clearly doing this as a Good Faith gesture).

So far the PIUs in MA that have been looked at have been fixed by Ford and were caused by AFTERMARKET companies.

There are TWO different issues at hand so far and so far Ford has proven that they are two different issues. We need to wait and see what is going on with the Civilian version investigation and what comes of it.

I'm not sure what you are talking about in regards to exhaust parts. Ford has released 2 if not 3 TSBs on civilian models. Having a TSB and repair process is not Ford denying that there was ever an issue. The fact that the TSB doesn't fix all the civilian versions is an issue and glad that the NHTSA is investigating it AGAIN. Ford has had exhaust parts for civilian versions for a long time. Members have had them installed quite a while ago and have claimed to have helped but not eliminate it.

No clue why you quoted me and went off on a rant towards my post.

I don’t think they know yet whether or not there are two different issues as noted by the article below:

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/07/28/feds-expand-probe-into-ford-explorer-exhaust-fume-leaks.html

"The agency also said that through cooperation with police departments, it has learned that the Police Interceptor version of the Explorer is experiencing exhaust manifold cracks that are hard to detect and may explain exhaust odors. Investigators will evaluate the cause, frequency and safety consequences of the cracks, and whether Explorers used by civilians are experiencing cracked manifolds, the agency said."

It appears that there are might be two separate issues, but as mentioned above they are currently evaluating whether Explorers used by civilians are experiencing cracked manifolds. I’m also not sure that all police departments nationwide that have had troubles with carbon monoxide poisoning have all defectively upgraded their PIUs which resulted in leaks where untreated exhaust could enter the cabin. Many police departments have been upgrading various types of Fords for many, many years and have not encountered the fifth generation Explorer carbon monoxide problem, at least that I’m aware of. I think it’s also important to note that civilian owned Explorers are not driven like PIUs at WOT excessively in both hot and cold modes, therefore, if the same problem exist on a civilian Explorer, owners may not know that it does. I'm also not sure if it is conclusive that there have not been any odd or illogical accidents with civilian owned Explorers that deserved investigation, but were not investigated. In summary there are lots of moving parts so it’s best to wait for the results of the current investigation.

 

[J_C]

^ In a way it's brilliant. I could be a LEO driving like a bat out of hell, wreck my ride, and it was Ford's fault.

From that same article you linked,

In the documents, NHTSA said it tested multiple vehicles at its Ohio research center, and it has made field inspections of police vehicles involved in crashes. As of Thursday, the agency has found no evidence or data to support claims that injuries or crash allegations were caused by carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

[Sixonemale]

^ In a way it's brilliant. I could be a LEO driving like a bat out of hell, wreck my ride, and it was Ford's fault.

From that same article you linked,

Pick your police department or article:

http://wnep.com/2017/08/01/feds-inv...tments-pull-some-ford-explorers-from-service/

"Austin’s police department isn’t the only one to have been impacted by faulty vehicles. James Thibodeaux, captain of the Henderson Police Department in Louisiana, said one of his officers passed out while driving and crashed after she spent 11 hours in an Explorer."

“She was treated at a nearby hospital and was released the same day,” Thibodeaux said. “She had to undergo some oxygen level treatment because her carbon monoxide levels were near fatal 2 hours after the accident.”

I'm simply saying it's best to wait till the investigation has been completed.

 

[J_C]

^ I've never suggested that it isn't happening ever, just that it could be a scapegoat in some cases. In such a situation it's better that a recall happen soon so those scapegoat scenarios are removed.

Personally, with all the gadgetry being added to vehicles these days, and especially the risk with hybrids turning on in people's garages if they forget to turn it off, I'd be all for new vehicles having an integrated factory CO cabin alarm, and in cases where they have electric steering, an engine shutoff feature so long as it is in park -or- if in drive, can be user-overridden for whatever unforeseeable reasons that might need to be done.

 

[Albert (CO Toxicologist)]

Ford's proposed repairs for exhaust odor complaints in the PIU and civilian Explorers are the same, as detailed most recently in TSB17-0044 at
http://www.mhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/TSB-17-0044-Exhaust-Odor-in-Vehicle.pdf

Dealers are supposed to visually inspect and add sealant as needed around any upfitting holes but also around body seams and holes that Ford left unsealed during assembly, including around the wheel wells, rear door, tail lights and underbody.

The TSB also calls for the replacement of some original Ford parts with newer ones of different design (fasteners for the spoiler now have a gas-tight washer, rear air extractors have new design, and exhaust tips now have a 2nd hole facing down) and reprogramming of the HVAC.

This shows Ford recognizes that there are fixable problems with its both its original design and assembly that may be contributing to the "odor" complaints. Ford is not publicizing this, of course, but as of August it is telling dealers that they should fully refund any civilian Explorer owners who've paid for odor-related repairs.

http://www.mhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Advance-Notice-Supplement-2.pdf

I think a very expensive recall is coming soon.

 

[Jon M]

Seven years worth of Ford Motor Co.’s most-popular SUV model are a step closer to recall in the U.S. over mounting reports of exhaust fumes leaking inside.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has taken an interim step toward prompting the recall of 1.3 million 2011-2017 Ford Explorers, including 2016-2017 Explorer Police Interceptor models, according to a posting on the agency’s website. This comes more than a year after the NHTSA first started looking into odors and exhaust issues in the vehicles.

The NHTSA said on its website that it has upgraded the probe to an "engineering analysis" after receiving at least 2,719 complaints pertaining to those model year Explorers.

“Our decisions are driven by the data available," Michael Levine, a Ford spokesman, said in an email Saturday. “When the data indicates a safety recall is needed, we move quickly on behalf of our customers."


Crashes, Injuries
Three crashes and 41 injuries have been potentially linked to the issue since July 1, 2016, according to an NHTSA filing. Some cases included complaints of nausea, headaches and loss of consciousness, all symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.

While NHTSA said it hasn’t found substantive data to show that carbon monoxide was responsible for any of the incidents, preliminary testing suggested that “CO levels may be elevated in certain driving scenarios.”

In August, a police officer in Auburn, Massachusetts, passed out and crashed while driving a Ford Explorer SUV specially designed for law enforcement use. He tested positive for the noxious gas. A Ford representative at the time told CBS News it would be "premature to draw conclusions" from the incident and said a closer analysis of the car revealed a carbon monoxide concentration of 13 parts per million. The current permissible exposure limit established by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration is 50 parts per million.

Ford contended that aftermarket modifications were responsible for any carbon monoxide exposure in that incident, and the Auburn police later agreed in a statement on Facebook. The company has said that carbon monoxide, which is odorless, has been an issue only in police models of the Explorer, while other incident reports cite exhaust smells.

In 2012 and 2014, the company issued technical bulletins to dealers to alert them of complaints regarding "an exhaust odor in the vehicle."



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bl...n-ford-explorers-may-face-recall-due-to-fumes

 

[supr squirrel]

Seven years worth of Ford Motor Co.’s most-popular SUV model are a step closer to recall in the U.S. over mounting reports of exhaust fumes leaking inside.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has taken an interim step toward prompting the recall of 1.3 million 2011-2017 Ford Explorers, including 2016-2017 Explorer Police Interceptor models, according to a posting on the agency’s website. This comes more than a year after the NHTSA first started looking into odors and exhaust issues in the vehicles.

The NHTSA said on its website that it has upgraded the probe to an "engineering analysis" after receiving at least 2,719 complaints pertaining to those model year Explorers.

“Our decisions are driven by the data available," Michael Levine, a Ford spokesman, said in an email Saturday. “When the data indicates a safety recall is needed, we move quickly on behalf of our customers."


Crashes, Injuries
Three crashes and 41 injuries have been potentially linked to the issue since July 1, 2016, according to an NHTSA filing. Some cases included complaints of nausea, headaches and loss of consciousness, all symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.

While NHTSA said it hasn’t found substantive data to show that carbon monoxide was responsible for any of the incidents, preliminary testing suggested that “CO levels may be elevated in certain driving scenarios.”

passed out and crashed while driving a Ford Explorer SUV specially designed for law enforcement use. He tested positive for the noxious gas. A Ford representative at the time told CBS News it would be "premature to draw conclusions" from the incident and said a closer analysis of the car revealed a carbon monoxide concentration of 13 parts per million. The current permissible exposure limit established by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration is 50 parts per million.

Ford contended that aftermarket modifications were responsible for any carbon monoxide exposure in that incident, and the Auburn police later agreed in a statement on Facebook. The company has said that carbon monoxide, which is odorless, has been an issue only in police models of the Explorer, while other incident reports cite exhaust smells.

In 2012 and 2014, the company issued technical bulletins to dealers to alert them of complaints regarding "an exhaust odor in the vehicle."



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bl...n-ford-explorers-may-face-recall-due-to-fumes

I nearly referenced this in my comment on the other thread regarding this subject. Out of 1.3 million vehicles there are (at least) 2,719 reports. That's less than .003 percent of vehicles. That's a miniscule number. Granted, I know the number is likely higher than that, but still a very small number.

Here's another thing to think about. I have, on a few occasions, smelled the 'rotten egg smell' while under hard acceleration during WOT. Doesn't do it every time and I can't seem to replicate it when I want to. Even weirder is, despite my smelling it with others in the car, nobody else has ever smelled it. Not my wife. Not my in-laws, etc. So it seems that it's something only certain people pick up on. (And I smelled it prior to learning of the issue. In fact I discovered it was a 'problem' after Googling it after it happened a couple of times.)

Not trying to defend Ford or anything like that. But I do feel sorry for their engineers, because based on numbers this appears to be a needle in a haystack problem and I can imagine trying to track it down is extremely frustrating to all involved.