Exhaust Manifold Gasket noise leak

[pjw73nh]

Greetings,

I purchased my 2008 Explorer Ltd about 6 months ago with a 4.6L and 63k miles. I use it for towing a small travel trailer, so I don't put many miles on it. It's got about 67k on it now. According to OASIS, it has had all MFR maintenance performed up to the 60k mark.

In the past two months, it has developed a "sound" on startup. It goes away after about 60- 75 seconds. Longer (90 seconds) or so in colder weather. To me it sounds like a typical exh manifold leak. That "3 cylinder, putt putt putt tractor" sound. Also very reminiscent of a noisy lifter.

There is no apparent affect on performance. It is definitely coming from the area of cyl #1. I have a recording here. See link below.

---on edit--- Sorry link no longer works....

It is the "higher/staccato" of the sounds. The lower "pulsing/whooshing" is just regular engine noise. You can hear the regular engine noise as the camera pans to the back of the car. You can clearly hear the exh noise from startup to about 17 seconds, then is gets a little quieter. It is almost completely gone at th 30 second mark in the video. This is stone cold startup car sat overnight. It makes no noise at all if started when warm. It has to be off for several hours to get the noise.

What puzzles me is that the exh manifold sound goes away after 75 seconds or so. Holding the tailpipe shut for a bit builds up lots of pressure quickly. No hissing or aurally detectable leak. In warmer (summer) weather, it goes away completely within about 60-75 seconds. In cooler (fall) weather, it is taking 90 or so seconds to go away.

I had it up on a lift briefly a couple days ago during a state inspection. We really couldn't see anything tell-tale from the bottom or the top, so I am feeling I will need to at least get it disassembled to a point where I can see the manifold clearly.

Are there any known issues with the manifolds/gaskets etc? Looking for the best way to get a good view of it, so I can determine the next step. Or you tell me, what SHOULD be the next step?

I looked in the Ford shop manual, and it looks pretty complicated to get to it. There has GOT to be some shortcuts, or at least a way to get a better view so I can see what the actual issue is.

Anyone know the flat rate for doing a passenger side exh gasket? :-(


Thanks.

P..../NH

 

[NORDFORD]

I just had this done under warranty on my 07. One of the studs was broke and caused the leak. Look for black soot around one of the studs. I don't know the cost, but they had it done in a day.

 

[pjw73nh]

I am curious. How'd you get it covered under warranty? Veh appears to be 4 years old? Under mileage?

 

[NORDFORD]

Exhaust is covered by an 80k warranty. Mine only has 50k on it so the powertrain covered it.

 

[EX-SV]

Would this be "emissions-related", because untreated exhaust escapes into air before converters downstream?...

 

[pjw73nh]

Well, I jacked up the Ex and removed the inner wheel well to get a good look-see at the #1 cylinder exhaust manifold area. Take a look at the picture here.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fy8uHynVoGmuMNVM2DGlDJKVgip1PxB-Ub0Z9NWx1CQ?feat=directlink

No stud.

So now I am faced with going to the dealer to see if they will cover this under the 8/80 emissions performance warranty. I can't find any "detailed, specific, part by part" list of what the 8/80 covers. I really don't want to pay $600-$800+ for this to be fixed. ESPECIALLY since no one knows what the root cause is or whether it will happen again. Was it poor workmanship in assembly? Poor design using two metals that expand at VERY different rates with heat? Bad manifold? Bad stud? Who knows?

I have a friend that works at a Ford dealer as a master tech. He does LOTS of these. He said it is a ***** of a job. Not only is access difficult, but he said that the stud breaks off flush and has to be drilled out with increasing sized drill bits. All the while being VERY careful to not pierce the water jacket.

Anyone have any luck getting this covered under 8/80? I am at 67k right now.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[feetwet]

Exhaust is covered by an 80k warranty. Mine only has 50k on it so the powertrain covered it.

Called my dealer, said 80k only applies to the catalytic converter.

 

[EX-SV]

Per 2007 Explorer warranty guide, Federal:

WHAT IS COVERED?
These parts are covered by both the Emissions Defect Warranty and the
Emissions Performance Warranty.
List of Parts Covered by Emissions Warranties For Cars,
Light Duty Trucks and Heavy Duty Vehicles
• Air Flow Sensor
• Air/Fuel Feedback Control
System and Sensors
• Air Induction System
• Attitude Compensation System
• Catalytic Converter
• Cold Start Enrichment System
• Cold Start Fuel Injector
• Controls for Deceleration
• Electronic Ignition System
• Exhaust Pipe (Manifold to
Catalyst)
• Electronic Engine Control
Sensors and Switches
• Electronic Engine Control
Unit (ECU)
• Emissions Labels
• Evaporative Emission Control
System
• Exhaust Gas Recirculation
(EGR) System
• Exhaust Heat Control Valve
• Exhaust Manifold
• Exhaust Pipe (Manifold to
Catalyst)
• Fuel Filler Cap and Neck
Restrictor
• Fuel Injection System
• Fuel Injector Supply Manifold
• Fuel Sensor (1)
• Fuel Tank (non diesel only)
• Fuel Tank Pressure Control
Valve (1)
• High Voltage Battery (HEV)
• Idle Air Bypass Valve
• Ignition Coil and/or Control Module
• Intake Manifold
• Intercooler Assembly -
Engine Charger
• Malfunction Indicator Lamp
(MIL)/On-Board Diagnostic
(OBD) System
• NGV module (Bi-fuel/CNG)
• PCV system and Oil Filler Cap
• Secondary Air Injection System
• Spark Control Components
• Spark Plugs and Ignition Wires
• Supercharger Assembly
• Synchronizer Assembly
• Thermostat
• Throttle Body Assembly (MFI)
• Transmission Control Module
(TCM)
• Turbocharger Assembly
• Vacuum Distribution System
(1) = Flex Fuel Vehicle Only
19

 

[feetwet]

Good info... What about for early 2006 models?

Where did you find this reference?

 

[EX-SV]

Good info... What about for early 2006 models?

Where did you find this reference?

I have a PDF for the 2007 warranty guide, don't remember where I found it, but probably found it on this forum which has a lot of good info. Try "search" here.

High probability the list of parts is the same for 2006 and 2007. btw - your Ford master-tech friend should know what the story is on this common problem...

But the bad news is this (as I read it, so dealer was probably right):

8/80:
— 8 years or 80,000 miles (whichever occurs first) for catalytic converter,
onboard emissions diagnostic device, natural gas vehicle (NGV)
module (Bi-fuel/CNG), electronic emission control unit, and transmission
control module

— 3 years or 36,000 miles (whichever occurs first) for all other covered
parts.

 

[EX-SV]

Called my dealer, said 80k only applies to the catalytic converter.

Yes, plus onboard emissions diagnostic device, natural gas vehicle (NGV)
module (Bi-fuel/CNG), electronic emission control unit, and transmission
control module.

 

[EX-SV]

Well, I jacked up the Ex and removed the inner wheel well to get a good look-see at the #1 cylinder exhaust manifold area. Take a look at the picture here.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fy8uHynVoGmuMNVM2DGlDJKVgip1PxB-Ub0Z9NWx1CQ?feat=directlink

No stud.

So now I am faced with going to the dealer to see if they will cover this under the 8/80 emissions performance warranty. I can't find any "detailed, specific, part by part" list of what the 8/80 covers. I really don't want to pay $600-$800+ for this to be fixed. ESPECIALLY since no one knows what the root cause is or whether it will happen again. Was it poor workmanship in assembly? Poor design using two metals that expand at VERY different rates with heat? Bad manifold? Bad stud? Who knows?

I have a friend that works at a Ford dealer as a master tech. He does LOTS of these. He said it is a ***** of a job. Not only is access difficult, but he said that the stud breaks off flush and has to be drilled out with increasing sized drill bits. All the while being VERY careful to not pierce the water jacket.

Anyone have any luck getting this covered under 8/80? I am at 67k right now.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Thanks.

Did you have this non-warranty repair done yet?

 

[feetwet]

With the cold weather setting in, my Explorer is getting a more pronounced leak sound when starting the engine cold... might be both driver and pax side :-(

 

[pjw73nh]

Did you have this non-warranty repair done yet?

I have not. I am waiting for A. A convenient time to bring it in. And B hopefully by that time, it will be an issue so well known that they can't deny it's a defect in materials or workmanship. (Not holding my breath)... I will report back here when I bring it in. At this point I am not going to fix it as it only makes the noise for the first 60-90 seconds and then as it heats up and expands, it quiets right down.

P

 

[feetwet]

Curious, is there a design change in the replacement parts so the problem doesn't reoccur a few years after it gets fixed?

 

[pjw73nh]

Curious, is there a design change in the replacement parts so the problem doesn't reoccur a few years after it gets fixed?

Feet, That is the $975 question.... No one seems to be able to answer this. I am not going to fix it until I know what caused it so I can prevent it int he future... Let me know if you find out....

 

[feetwet]

Might make sense to get a CO detector in the cab until repaired.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=1263465782&pf_rd_i=facope

 

[pjw73nh]

OK. I put a CO checker in the cab for a few weeks. Nothing. It reads 0 all the time. I tested it at the tailpipe and it peaked at 999. So I know it works.

I stopped by a custom exhaust place yesterday on a whim. Actually, he came highly recommended to me. I just happened to be driving by and had some time to kill.

I asked the folks there for an estimate on replacing the bolt. I told him I was hesitant to do it myself because of drilling in the close proximity to the water jacket. He said "NEVER" drill them out. If you see someone taking a drill to your heads, run the other direction (he wouldn't tell me how he gets them out). He only said he does not jeopardize the head.

He said he has done hundreds of these, he knows it's a common issue. I asked him if it will break again, and he said unlikely. He did say the way to be sure is to put a "flex pipe" on each side. I am not sure about this. I would think if it was flexing issue, it wouldn't be JUST the #1 cylinder top bolt ?

He quoted me $300 on the low side and $400 on the high side for the bolt, and if I wanted the flex pipes, $200 more for the pair.

I am still toying with the idea of taking it to the dealer and asking them if it's covered under the 8/80 fed emissions warranty. The list posted above is pretty comprehensive and it doesn't specifically list the manifold bolts. Where the manifold IS covered, are the bolts "assumed"?

It will probably cost me $100 diag fee at the dealer. Maybe I'm just better off taking it to the exhaust guy, pay the fee and be done with it?

Thoughts? Comments? Suggs?

Thanks.

P.../NH

 

[Bill MacLeod]

I'm going to move this up top for you. Very interested in the outcome.

Never heard of manifold bolts cracking/braking on their own. Absolute b/s.

 

[riverdog1]

My passenger side rear stud broke on its own at 96, 000 km. Covered under 100k powertrain warranty.