Has anyone installed an EGT gauge?

[Cabrera]

I'm installing an EGT gauge in my '02 Trac and I was wondering if if someone knew the best location to drill & tap in a 4.0 for the sensor probe?

 

[Hitchhikingmike]

Why would you need an EGT gauge other than just to have another gauge on your dash? IMHO EGTs really aren't a problem on gassers. Unless you've seriously modified your engine, I would think it's near impossible to raise your EGTs to a detrimental level.

Now if this was a diesel we were talking about that's another story.

I would think the best place to be would just be a lower point on the header.

 

[DLinkOZ]

Unless you put a turbo on there, it seems a bit unnecessary.

 

[boominXplorer]

Only reason I see is that it is a way to tell the load on the motor. The lower the temp, the better the gas mileage.

 

[Cabrera]

Thanks Hitchhikingmike, I think that location would be easier to access & drill out than the actual manifold.
Ok to answer the burning question as to why, I picked where Aldive's project left off
HHO: Is it alchemy? Or will it improve gas mileage on a ’99 4.0 SOHC Explorer?
My initial testing has a 30% MPG improvement. When you introduce HHO into the truck, the
ECU reads it as a lean condition and compensates by adding fuel negation any MPG gains.
By manipulating the O2 sensor signal to the ECU you correct this. My concern is if my drycell stops producing gas
for whatever reason, the first condition will be higher EGT due to the lean condition set by the manipulation of the signal.

 

[2000StreetRod]

A/F ratio meter & 30% mpg increase

I think a wideband air/fuel ratio meter would be more beneficial than an EGT gauge. It will immediately display a lean condition and will provide a cross check on your O2 sensor signal manipulation. I put mine just downstream of the driver side pre-cat O2 sensor. It was the easiest place to access.

I'm surprised that your fuel economy has increased 30%. I wonder how much is due to the HHO vs the O2 sensor signal manipulation. I believe that with a custom tune you can change the PCM's closed loop A/F ratio. If you're running extra lean then your pollution will increase and your exhaust valve life will be shortened. Also, your knock sensor will detect detonation and retard the spark advance reducing power. If you have disabled your knock sensor retard then you could burn holes in your pistons.

 

[Cabrera]

Ok, I installed the EGT today. What a pain. Drilling the exhaust was the easy part, running the wiring & installing the gauge was a beast. Anyway, here it is... the EGT installed.

It's amazing how a simple leaning of the fuel mix, or the addition of
hydrogen can affect the exhaust temperature & consequently the
cylinder head temp.

Did a quick baseline testing of the system & how it affects the engine.
All my temps are in Fahrenheit.

Fuel Mix Normal, Hydrogen off (Stock Setting)
idle..............................450
40mph cruising in .........750
75mph cruising in .........950
WOT at 85mph............1100
doing a 12 mile hope on the highway


Fuel Mix lean, 325mv Hydrogen on (Full Hydrogen system On)
idle...........................425
40mph cruising .........700
75mph cruising .........850
WOT at 85mph.........1000


Fuel Mix lean, 325mv Hydrogen off (Just the Leaning of the Fuel Mix)
idle...........................625
40mph cruising .........950
75mph cruising .......1350
WOT at 85mph.........N/A

I clicked on the Hydrogen generator and watched the Exhaust Temp quickly drop from 1350 to 850. So if fuel efficiency is cause by only leaning the mix, then the hydrogen allows it without increasing temperature.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Fuel economy with just O2 sensor manipulation

Very interesting. Have you determined what your fuel economy is with no HHO and just the O2 sensor manipulation? If not, I'm not suggesting that you do with such high temperatures without the HHO.

Have you disabled your EGR?

How much current is flowing thru your HHO generator?

Do you have a fusible link or some other current limiting device?

Do you have a pressure relief valve?

I would like to see some photos of your setup.

 

[Cabrera]

Very interesting. Have you determined what your fuel economy is with no HHO and just the O2 sensor manipulation? If not, I'm not suggesting that you do with such high temperatures without the HHO.

Since making an accurate MPG calculation would require at least a couple of tank fulls I would never attempt it since the temps far exceed specifications.

Have you disabled your EGR?

No, nothing on the truck has been disabled

How much current is flowing thru your HHO generator?

My max amperage draw is currently 30A. I use 4 AWG wire to the generator. I use a 150A PWM to control the draw. Currently I limit the draw to 25A. In the future I will add a H.O. Alternator to the Trac so that I can efficiently increase the draw.

Do you have a fusible link or some other current limiting device?

In my installation I used in line fuses & resettable 30A circuit breakers.

Do you have a pressure relief valve?

My installation has a scrubber with a pressure relief valve on it. I also have a flashback arrestor inline before the throttle body.

I would like to see some photos of your setup.

I have documentation and the equipment I used on my Project Site It's a work in progress I am still adding to it. It consists of a site, blog & you tube. I sell nothing, this is all there just for reference. Feel free to browse.

 

[2000StreetRod]

I'm impressed!

I browsed your website and I'm impressed! Obviously you have done a lot of research and have accomplished a lot. You have captured my interest.

Using a pulse width modulator to control current flow is an excellent idea. Did you design, etch and populate the printed circuit board yourself or is it a standard motor controller kit?

How often do you have to refill your electrolyte and how much does it cost? The electrolyte consumption should be part of the fuel cost savings analysis.

I experimented with altering the MAF sensor signal when I replaced my stock 55mm MAF sensor with a Lightning 90mm MAF sensor. I designed and built a three stage variable gain amplifier that allowed me to vary the signal to the PCM from lean to rich. I abandoned the idea for two reasons. The first was that even using temperature compensation I could not achieve gain stability over the large temperature range in the engine compartment. I had to keep adjusting the pod mounted gain control. The second and more significant reason was that I learned the amplifier only affected the A/F ratio when the PCM was running open loop. As soon as the PCM switched to closed loop the O2 sensor signal to the PCM determined the A/F ratio. Have you determined the actual impact of your MAF enhancer?

 

[Cabrera]

Using a pulse width modulator to control current flow is an excellent idea. Did you design, etch and populate the printed circuit board yourself or is it a standard motor controller kit?

My original 30a PWM was a standard motor controller board. Very simple design. The board was pre etched, the components were very simple to solder in. The problem with that is I was working it at the upper range of it's operational capacity. The new unit I bought is a 150a unit. It has 3 adjusters to it; frequency, load & Duty cycle.

How often do you have to refill your electrolyte and how much does it cost? The electrolyte consumption should be part of the fuel cost savings analysis.

Not very often at all. I use KOH as an elyte. (28% mix 2lbs / 3 quarts water) I can use such a concentrated mix because of the PWM. The refill would only be distilled water. KOH remains. I am still using my original KOH mix from the bench testing My reservoir only holds 1 quart or so. The KOH flake is $7 per 2lbs

I experimented with altering the MAF sensor signal when I replaced my stock 55mm MAF sensor with a Lightning 90mm MAF sensor. I designed and built a three stage variable gain amplifier that allowed me to vary the signal to the PCM from lean to rich. I abandoned the idea for two reasons. The first was that even using temperature compensation I could not achieve gain stability over the large temperature range in the engine compartment. I had to keep adjusting the pod mounted gain control. The second and more significant reason was that I learned the amplifier only affected the A/F ratio when the PCM was running open loop. As soon as the PCM switched to closed loop the O2 sensor signal to the PCM determined the A/F ratio. Have you determined the actual impact of your MAF enhancer?

I have not installed the MAF enhancer. I use the EFIE only. The EFIE deals with the O2 sensors in closed loop mode. Once I get a definitive setting for the EFIE I may install the MAF enhancer as a sort of "fine tuner" for the EFIE settings.
Also Temperature concerns are addressed with the introduction of the HHO.

What I do suggest is for anyone doing this, not to do your final connection to your EFIE. Starting with a setting of 200mv wire it up so that you can make initial adjustments on the fly from inside the vehicle, having someone drive while you set the EFIE until a significant power loss is felt, then back it off. Sometimes it actually takes 10 minutes to stabilize a setting as the O2 sensors output keep jumping. Once you fine your "optimal" setting, then do your final mounting of the EFIE. This will make the initial setting much easier.

One thing I have not mentioned is cost. I allocated $2,000 to my experiment and to date my expense for this project has been exactly $797.09. This includes all of the mistakes, redos, repurchases & fixes done due to finding problems of inadequacies in the initial parts used. The actual cost of the installation is more like $500 spent. Additionally my accountant has notified me that since the Trac is now "operational" she can qualify the tax deductible expenses.

I am always talking about detail.
Taking your time to do it right & make it look OEM, and I forget the one detail that shows on this project.

Did you notice it???

 

[2000StreetRod]

Open loop performance & EFIE

What impact (if any) does the hydrogen have on the engine performance during open loop? Does your vehicle accelerate as well as normal at moderate to full throttle? If not, have you considered automatic deactivation or would the response time be too slow?

I've considered purchasing an EFIE to experiment with but I couldn't find one that meets my requirements. I want one that has adjustable offset and gain. The PCM in closed loop cycles the A/F ratio between about 5% rich and 5% lean. If the O2 sensor signal was amplified then the variation could be reduced without the PCM realizing it.

Where is the hydrogen introduced into the induction system? Is it after the MAF sensor like EGR?

Have you monitored your ignition timing to see if it is typical?

What fuel economy improvements have you measured and for how many tanks of fuel?

 

[Cabrera]

What impact (if any) does the hydrogen have on the engine performance during open loop? Does your vehicle accelerate as well as normal at moderate to full throttle? If not, have you considered automatic deactivation or would the response time be too slow?

In open loop the truck ignores the manipulated O2 signals and defers to the presets in the ECU. Acceleration is normal, and throttle response is normal.
I considered the above scenario when installing, so I did include a manual activation switch so the system could remain off if open loop operation was hindered. It has not been. Normally I leave the switch on since the system self activates when the ignition is on only.

I've considered purchasing an EFIE to experiment with but I couldn't find one that meets my requirements. I want one that has adjustable offset and gain. The PCM in closed loop cycles the A/F ratio between about 5% rich and 5% lean. If the O2 sensor signal was amplified then the variation could be reduced without the PCM realizing it.

I purchased a dual EFIE to handle the upstream sensors only, but in retrospect I feel a quad would do better so that I can adjust the signal from the downstream after the cat.
I am considering this one:
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/digital-narrow-band-efie/quad-digital-efie-basic

Where is the hydrogen introduced into the induction system? Is it after the MAF sensor like EGR?

My induction point is way after my MAF sensor on my intake just before the throttle body. refer to the video I recently uploaded to You Tube titled "The Installation Results"

Have you monitored your ignition timing to see if it is typical?

Not really monitored yet, I did do a quick read & it looked normal.

What fuel economy improvements have you measured and for how many tanks of fuel?

I am in my initial testing of this installation. This is my 1st tank.
On my 1st trip, I took it for a ride I do every day. (the ride to take my son to taekwondo).
I kept the same speed same route same driving conditions. Usually on a round trip the average mpg reads about 15.4 mpg.
My round trip average mpg was 19.9 mpg. that's 30% improvement. Of course this by no means is conclusive, and there has to be a lot more driving to get a more accurate reading but it looks promising.

My MPG will be more conclusive after 2 or 3 tank fills.

 

[2000StreetRod]

WOT performance

In open loop the truck ignores the manipulated O2 signals and defers to the presets in the ECU. Acceleration is normal, and throttle response is normal.
I considered the above scenario when installing, so I did include a manual activation switch so the system could remain off if open loop operation was hindered. It has not been. Normally I leave the switch on since the system self activates when the ignition is on only.

I was referring to the H2 introduction not the EFIE altering. Have you performed any acceleration tests with and without H2?

I purchased a dual EFIE to handle the upstream sensors only, but in retrospect I feel a quad would do better so that I can adjust the signal from the downstream after the cat.

I see no need to modify the post-cat O2 sensor signal. The PCM only monitors the output to determine if the cats are functional. According to Ford the post-cat O2 sensors have very limited effect on the fuel trims. Adding a bias to the pre-cat O2 sensor signal should not significantly impact the post-cat sensor based results.

My induction point is way after my MAF sensor on my intake just before the throttle body. refer to the video I recently uploaded to You Tube titled "The Installation Results"

That means the introduced H2 is not metered by the PCM. The volume is probably so small that it would only affect the idle. The IAC valve would easily compensate.

I would data log the ignition timing with and without HHO and compare the results. Your knock sensor could be detecting detonation and retarding the timing. You'll get the best performance (fuel economy and acceleration) with the timing advanced to just prior to detonation. If the knock sensor detects detonation the PCM will immediately retard the timing a large amount and then gradually advance the timing in very small amounts.

Please post your fuel economy results after several tank fulls of driving.

 

[Cabrera]

I was referring to the H2 introduction not the EFIE altering. Have you performed any acceleration tests with and without H2?

I saw & felt no significant change when introducing the H2. Acceleration remained the same.

I see no need to modify the post-cat O2 sensor signal. The PCM only monitors the output to determine if the cats are functional. According to Ford the post-cat O2 sensors have very limited effect on the fuel trims. Adding a bias to the pre-cat O2 sensor signal should not significantly impact the post-cat sensor based results.

That was what my research indicated as well that the downstream O2 sensor was only reporting results but did not influence the ECU. Once I have my optimal EFIE setting, I would experiment further to see if tweaking the downstream has any benefit.

That means the introduced H2 is not metered by the PCM. The volume is probably so small that it would only affect the idle. The IAC valve would easily compensate.

Correct. I am only pumping 2 liters per minute of H2

I would data log the ignition timing with and without HHO and compare the results. Your knock sensor could be detecting detonation and retarding the timing. You'll get the best performance (fuel economy and acceleration) with the timing advanced to just prior to detonation. If the knock sensor detects detonation the PCM will immediately retard the timing a large amount and then gradually advance the timing in very small amounts.

I have set my scangauge 2 to display the timing so that I can log.

Please post your fuel economy results after several tank fulls of driving.

I am keeping a manual spreadsheet for the last year so I have an excellent baseline control figure. I will post my figures every fill up on my blog and on this thread.

BTW I was looking through your thread, nice work on your Explorer. I see you retired last July. I took early retirement myself a few years back. Isn't it great having the free time to be able to do these project things? I just wish I had the energy I did when I was 20 LOL.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Recombination

. . . Correct. I am only pumping 2 liters per minute of H2.

About 55 years ago when I was a kid I experimented with electrolysis. I collected the oxygen at one electrode and the hydrogen at the other. If the two gases were allowed to combine in the pressure of a spark they would recombine with water and heat as byproducts. If you use KOH as your electrolyte isn't oxygen being generated also? Aren't both gases mixed in your cell? Isn't there the possibility of an explosion?

 

[Cabrera]

About 55 years ago when I was a kid I experimented with electrolysis. I collected the oxygen at one electrode and the hydrogen at the other. If the two gases were allowed to combine in the pressure of a spark they would recombine with water and heat as byproducts. If you use KOH as your electrolyte isn't oxygen being generated also? Aren't both gases mixed in your cell? Isn't there the possibility of an explosion?

You are correct, with KOH the result is H2+O

Most definitely an explosion can occur, but with the proper precautions, no more than the fuel in my gas tank! Explosions were more prevalent with the old style "wet cell" or bath cells.

The dry cell is of course isolated from any source of combustion source. The gas produced at the cell is pumped back though the electrolyte reservoir. From the reservoir gas line out it goes to a bubbler/scrubber which is half filled with a 50/50 mix of distilled water & distilled vinegar. The purpose of this mix it to eliminate any steam produce & to scrub out any electrolyte fluid in the line. This scrubber is also equipped with a flashport/pressure relief valve in case a flashback get that far. The reason I say "in case" is I have a flashback protector in-line between the bubbler/scrubber and the intake port.

Considering safety, & overcompensating is key to this technology. I have see many "kids" do thing half assed. Not using gloves & eye protection, winging it on installation safety issues with disastrous results. That's the advantage that us old guys have, we've passed our reckless phase.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Knock sensor retard

Does your scanner have the ability to data log the "knock sensor retard" parameter? When I was doing my WOT test runs for my custom tune my knock sensor retard would jump from +0.25 to -8.0 due to the knock sensor detecting my timing chain rattle. Jame Henson of Henson Performance provide me a tune with the knock sensor retard disabled so he could complete the tuning. I had to watch the A/F ratio during the test runs to make sure it didn't suddenly go lean. When I finish installing my engine with the repaired/replaced timing chain components I'll enable the knock sensor retard.

P.S. I saw your Jaguar in the video. I've owned an XK-150, E-type, MK-II and XJ-6. I really enjoyed the torque of the inline DOHC six. I considered purchasing an XK8 to experiment with but will probably settle for a Mustang GT.

 

[Cabrera]

Does your scanner have the ability to data log the "knock sensor retard" parameter? When I was doing my WOT test runs for my custom tune my knock sensor retard would jump from +0.25 to -8.0 due to the knock sensor detecting my timing chain rattle. Jame Henson of Henson Performance provide me a tune with the knock sensor retard disabled so he could complete the tuning. I had to watch the A/F ratio during the test runs to make sure it didn't suddenly go lean. When I finish installing my engine with the repaired/replaced timing chain components I'll enable the knock sensor retard.

P.S. I saw your Jaguar in the video. I've owned an XK-150, E-type, MK-II and XJ-6. I really enjoyed the torque of the inline DOHC six. I considered purchasing an XK8 to experiment with but will probably settle for a Mustang GT.

No, the scangauge 2 is very limited it only monitors the following:
Fuel system loop status
Intake-Air-Temperature Temperature of the air going into the engine.
Water Temperature Water
Fuel-Pressure Gallons-per-Hour
Fuel consumption rate
Engine Loading
Fuel economy in the units selected.
Miles-per-hour
Manifold-Absolute- Pressure
TPS Throttle-Position-Setting
Battery Voltage

My Vanden Plas was my baby for many years, I bought her new in 84. I only put 53K miles on her. She is now sitting waiting for its new owner, my son who will be driving next year.

The Jag is a great car but to experiment with I would definitely go with the Mustang...As you know, parts are much cheaper.

 

[Cabrera]

I found leakage & clogs in my system which would attribute to the crappy mileage.

I used my eudiometer to check my production at the intake. For some reason it was .25 LPM.
Digging I found several issues. First my lovely reservoir leaked gas from the cap. I suspected in as much as that was the only part that was not in my bench setup. I swapped it out for the other one for now.

I also disconnected the circulating pump since my cell is relatively cool. Ok so then I blew air into the line from the reservoir to the bubbler, nothing. Can't blow the air into it. Why? The stone is clogged beyond use. I replaced it and ran the truck.

I see real good gas production at the reservoir. I test it at the intake... 2 LPM.
The scangauge is reading better mileage but still not as good as without HHO.
Filled up my mileage went from 15.5 MPG to 12.4 MPG.

I also threw an 1151 & a 1131 code (lean condition) My EFIE was set to 338MV I suppose this is due to the fact that not much HHO was getting into the intake.

I have to play with the EFIE now, maybe set it to around 355mv.

I did some investigating today.
I opened the shrink wrap on the EFIE connections to make sure I hooked it up right. They were correct
a code 1151 or 1131 could be associated with a vacuum leak or an intake leak after the MAF or an exhaust leak by the O2 sensors. So I sprayed carb cleaner around the HHO inlet hose, all good, I replaced the hose with a tighter fit one. I was worried the EGT probe may have a leak & causing this as well. I took it for a ride & throw an 1151.

Ok I disconnected the EFIE and connected it stock. Went for a ride within a mile again I threw an 1151. I came home and connected the multimeter to the stock O2 connections the passenger side was all over the place 150mv to 924mv and everything in between (BTW I am using a $900 MS7212 Mastech and it still bounces around) Then I tested the driver side 38mv to 89mv! It never passed 100mv, very suspect. I checked the connections & they looked ok. Still I figured I would replace the connectors to blades. Of course my soldering gun craps out (cuz I dropped it) , I have to use a junky tip solderer. Ok all the OEM connections are replaced, everything soldered. Took it for a 5 mile hop. No DTC codes.

So it appears one of my connections to the driver side was fubar. I soldered new connectors to the EFIE now as well. I will take a ride to pick up my kid from school (12 mile round trip) If I don't throw any codes then I will reconnect the EFFIE & see what happens then.