HHO: Is it alchemy? Or will it improve gas mileage on a ’99 4.0 SOHC Explorer?

[aldive]

Al, I will be extremely surprised if you see any significant results until you address the O2 sensor issue. Our computers will dump more fuel in to "fix" the false lean condition and that should negate any advantage the hydro will give. IMO you'll be wasting your time until you jump that hurdle.

I have my concerns. Hope to resolve the O2 sensor issue in the next few days.

I've also read that one reason to not use baking soda is that it produces an odorless undectable lethal gas during the process of producing the hydro.

The old biochemist in me is wanting to know what this lethal gas id.

 

[GJarrett]

I only said that I read it, not that I've taken the time to verify anything. Here's the link to the claim:

http://www.protiumfuelsystems.com/faq.html#01A

They're the ones selling the 02 sensor spacer ~ I don't know their qualifications or lack thereof.

 

[gijoecam]

All it's doing in all reality, is splitting the water molecules by electrolysis. Given the volume of air that flows into the intake, I can't see how it's going to significantly help mileage. IMHO, it's snake-oil... why wouldn't the OEMs install them from the factory? If it was that easy to make their vehicles meet CAFE standards, why wouldn't they use them?

I'd rather meter a very small amount of NOs into the intake... it'd do the same thing...

-Joe

 

[aldive]

IMHO, it's snake-oil...

You are entitled to your opinion. I plan to prove you wrong my friend

why wouldn't the OEMs install them from the factory? If it was that easy to make their vehicles meet CAFE standards, why wouldn't they use them?

Why wouldn't they do a lot of things that do indeed work to improve mileage, eg, reprogramming the PCM for one?

I'd rather meter a very small amount of NOs into the intake... it'd do the same thing...

HHO is basically free, NOS is not.

 

[carlover]

Im anxiously awaiting the results of this. Installation seems simple enough, if the benefit is as great or even close to as great as people claim then i will be adding one for sure...

 

[MustangP51]

Im anxiously awaiting the results of this. Installation seems simple enough, if the benefit is as great or even close to as great as people claim then i will be adding one for sure...

or 2 or 3

 

[GJarrett]

Joe, it should work, but you may be right that it won't produce enough energy to make that much difference. I don't expect 50% improvement claims - that probably is snake oil - but there should be measurable improvement if done right. I spent $50 on the plans and will spend less than $200 to build it. I drive well over 30,000 miles per year and a 4 mpg difference would pay for itself in less than three months. If it doesn't work, then at least it will have been a fun experiment that taught me something, and I will have spent my free time doing something besides watching sitcoms and "Cops" reruns like everyone else.

I used to buy the "if it works, why isn't it OEM?" train of thought but I have serious doubts about that now. In this case, it's not very user-friendly. Today's driver is barely smart enough to turn the key on and operate the steering wheel - geez, Lexus even has a vehicle that parks itself now - and this stuff will require adjusting the F/A ratios while driving and maintaining the unit fairly often. There's no way to sell this to a soccer mom that can't drive a standard transmission, brake correctly without ABS, or even parallel park without hitting something (while raising the purchase price over a thousand dollars expecting her to pay the premium to buy something she won't maintain and can't figure out how to use).

If it works, why isn't it OEM? I have no idea but I know that theory doesn't necessarily hold. I had a Honda CRX HF that got an honest real-life 50 mpg for me over twenty years ago but OEM can't give that to me today without selling me a Prius hybrid (and while we're at it, try finding a Prius driver that actually gets the mpg their hybrid was supposed to get. Good luck). That Honda got me way over 40 mpg in town (it NEVER got less than 40) and over 48 pmg on the highway; many times if I drove it conservatively I got over 50mpg. It was rated at 53mpg EPA and I actually got that a few times with it. I know OEM can do it today because they did it over twenty years ago.... but won't do it now.

PS - this thread is in the wrong forum; we've got a forum for hybrids, HHO, and other technology.

 

[duke16]

The old biochemist in me is wanting to know what this lethal gas id.

Probably CO. That's about the only gas besides CO2 you can get from baking soda.

 

[gijoecam]

I certainly understand Al's and GJarret's thoughts on it... I, too, am curious to see the results. My opinion is strictly my opinion, and I make no claims on behalf of the ExplorerForums, or my mother in law. However, based on my limited knowledge of IC engines, I just don't see it making a significant difference, given the size of the unit and the amount of gas produced by it. I recall electrolysing water back in high school chemistry eons ago using a 6V battery. It took 10-15 minutes to fill a small test tube with the gasses. Even at 12V, I can't imagine it producing a large enough volume of gas to have a measurable effect, given the sheer volume of air ingested by a 4.0L engine at idle. Heck, at an idle of 600 rpms, the engine is moving roughly 2400L of air in a minute... that's 634 gallons or 85 cubic feet of air, so given the minute amount of gas produced by electrolysis, I just can't see it having a measurable effect... It just doesn't seem logical, that's all...

But I can be wrong... It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[manaen]

Joe, you described very well, why I have my doubts on this technology as well. But there are a few factors that do make this different then your high school experiment. You talked about 6 volts but you didn't mention the amps being pumped into the water. The point (to my limited understanding) of adding the baking soda to the water is to increase it's conductivity which will increase the amperage that can be pumped in, and in return will increase the electrolitic reaction. Even with that in mind I still struggle to imagine it will keep up with 200 to 600 CFM going into an SOHC.

There is one other unknown factor that I would be curious about, what is the required level or ratio of HHO needed to enhance the combustion process. Is it possible that there is just enough HHO to make the burn more efficient. I don't know the answers, but I will be very curious to see how this all plays out.

oh and how much water will this system use and does it need to be distilled?

 

[MustangP51]

With 4 or more units working in tandem, I think that enough hydrogen will be produced to see a gain in fuel economy, but I'm very skeptical to the 14 mpg gains that are claimed by some.

By any chance do you know how much air the 5.0 ingests at an idle?

 

[manaen]

figure it out....

5L idling at 750 RPM = 3750 liters per minute or 132.43 CFM

Now that would be with an efficiency of 100% so it would be slightly less than that, probably somwhere in the 100cfm range...

 

[gijoecam]

figure it out....

5L idling at 750 RPM = 3750 liters per minute or 132.43 CFM

Now that would be with an efficiency of 100% so it would be slightly less than that, probably somwhere in the 100cfm range...

Indeed... I should have mentioned that with my 4.0L numbers... because the intake is under vacuum, there's a loss of efficiency there...

Also, just thinking about it, doesn't it technically only move half that volume in one revolution? i.e. doesn't a 4.0L engine only move 2L of air per revolution of the crankshaft? In one revolution, only half the cylinders will have drawn air in and compressed it, the other half would have fired and exhausted... But again, the logic even with half that volume at idle still doesn't seem as though it could have such a significant impact.

Now, lets talk about an engine cruising at 2500 RPMs. That's 5000cubic feet per minute. How many CFM of HHO can one generate with those modules? I would be surprised if it was one CFM, honestly....

 

[aldive]

Probably CO. That's about the only gas besides CO2 you can get from baking soda.

Indeed, thats it in a nutshell.

I really see no issue with it either. The HHO generator is not operating unless the ignition is on and the engine vacuum is drawing all of the generators output.

The site Gerald quoted is selling their own system.

 

[aldive]

I made a 120 mile highway run today. Unfortunately I did not collect mileage data since the tank was only a little over ¼ full.

I did not trigger any CEL for a lean condition and the O2 sensors functioned as observed by an OBD II scanner.

The tank is full, the mileage quest has begun ...

 

[joefnh]

Al one thing to remember, HHO gas has about 270 BTUs per cubic foot of gas. Using your vehicle as a baseline, you yield ~35MPG which if traveling at 60MPH would consume 1.7 gallons of gas per hour.

Each gallon of 89 octane gas has about 118,000 BTUs as available energy; using 1.7 gallons in 1 hour means that per hour you need 202,286 BTUs per hour of operation at 60MPH or 3,372 BTUs per minute of energy to sustain a 60MPH rate of travel.

To have a 10% effect on the BTU load, you would only need to make 1.25 Cubic Feet of HHO gas per minute; that is quite achievable, although I doubt that the surface area of the unit you currently have can achieve that alone. Multiple units probably would.

As for the pessimist here, don't use the air flow to determine need, use the amount of required and available BTUs to determine the feasibility.

As for the O2 sensor issue, I believe that you would need to apply an offset to the O2 signal to compensate for the added HHO fuel.

Al good luck on this project, I will be posting pictures of my homemade version which is capable of producing 3.6 CFM of HHO gas soon.

--Joe

 

[captainjimrod]

Hho

Big Al, how's it coming with the monitoring? we are sitting here at the VFW sitting on pins and needles..... I went as you instructed on Ebay, many kits.
thanks
Jim

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

Curious to see how this works; I could certainly use any boost availible as I'm commuting 600mi/wk.

That kit looks ghetto-fabulous, Al.

 

[aldive]

My purpose in this thread was to report on my experimentation with HHO, I did not intend for all the naysayers to come out from under the rocks and be negative about this project.

I reckon I shall cease the reporting on my project, but not my research.

 

[manaen]

Also, just thinking about it, doesn't it technically only move half that volume in one revolution?

Heh, yeah, your right forgot we are dealing with four strokes here. Together we just made one complete thought, hmmm scary..


Anyway that puts the 5.0L around 50 CFM at idle and the 4.0L around 40CFM

Hey that's pretty funny how those numbers worked out hmmm.