Hydraulic Steering | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

  • Register Today It's free!

Hydraulic Steering

Turdle

DIY stunt double
Staff member
Moderator
Elite Explorer
Joined
June 16, 2003
Messages
31,590
Reaction score
3,270
City, State
Humboldt, KS
Year, Model & Trim Level
2000 Mounty
I'd like to discuss.

First, is hydraulic steering legal for on highway use? Is it responsive enough?

I know there are hydro assist rams, However I am asking about full on hydro steering with no direct link from wheel to gear box
 



Join the Elite Explorers for $20 each year.
Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links,.
Add an avatar, upload photo attachments, and more!
.





As far as I know it has to be a hydro assist for it to be legal. It can not be full hydro.
 






So a popular magazine used a full hydro steer to eliminate the electric assist IFS rack in their ultimate adventure ( drive on highways to the trails for a week) Ford F150

This is why I ask. It must be doable?
 






From my understanding of the laws that it is like this and most states do not specifically address the steering in detail, but the basic interpreting of the law by DOT and NHSTA is this, it is NOT street legal due to there being no mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and front tires. The one major concern with the NHSTA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is that if you have power failure during high speeds, or low speeds, then in case of loss of power the hydro system locks up and makes it inoperable, secondly is that if there is a loss of pressure significant enough to also lose the ability to steer. Or since the orbital valve is the heart of the system, if it fails you are screwed at any speed.

The underlying issue is that you must have a viable link between you and the wheels in case of failure to have as a back-up. Sorta like the E-Brake, the manual steer instead of power steer. So here is a little info without full lookup of this situation,

http://www.liftlaws.com/is_full_hydro_steering_street_legal.htm


Now most sites will announce a stern warning to state that these systems may not be legal in your state, and that these systems are not intended for street use and are indeed for off-road applications.

For example, very top of the page in bold letters,

http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/fullhydro.htm


And in most states the Hydro assist is legal as you still maintain a manual connection between you and the wheels and that hydro assist is just that, a added assist to the stock setup.

Hope this helps :thumbsup:
 






From my understanding of the laws that it is like this and most states do not specifically address the steering in detail, but the basic interpreting of the law by DOT and NHSTA is this, it is NOT street legal due to there being no mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and front tires.

Care to show me where the DOT or NHSTA regulation that states that is. I've been looking for a while, never found it.


The one major concern with the NHSTA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is that if you have power failure during high speeds, or low speeds, then in case of loss of power the hydro system locks up and makes it inoperable, secondly is that if there is a loss of pressure significant enough to also lose the ability to steer.

NOPE, you wont lose your steering, 12+ years of forklift repair tells me you WILL have steering. The ORBITROL valve will still push fluid as long as the lines didnt blow out. I have move hundreds of forklifts with full hydraulic steering that didnt have pressure (for one reason or another), if the rest of the components of the steering system are in proper working order and you lose pressure, it will still steer. The steering will be tight, but it will steer.

Or since the orbital valve is the heart of the system, if it fails you are screwed at any speed.

Its an ORBITROL valve, not orbital. Its a brand name (like all bandages are Band-aids), Eaton/ Charr-lynn named it Orbitrol, people call them orbital because they dont know any better. The chance of an Orbitrol valve failing without warning is VERY slim. We have never seen an instant catastrophic failure of one in the history of our company, 36 years and counting.

The underlying issue is that you must have a viable link between you and the wheels in case of failure to have as a back-up. Sorta like the E-Brake, the manual steer instead of power steer. So here is a little info without full lookup of this situation,

http://www.liftlaws.com/is_full_hydro_steering_street_legal.htm


Now most sites will announce a stern warning to state that these systems may not be legal in your state, and that these systems are not intended for street use and are indeed for off-road applications.

For example, very top of the page in bold letters,

http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/fullhydro.htm


And in most states the Hydro assist is legal as you still maintain a manual connection between you and the wheels and that hydro assist is just that, a added assist to the stock setup.

Hope this helps :thumbsup:

I do agree that you should have a direct link between the wheel and the tires if you plan on driving on the road.
 






Sorry turdle for this interuption but,

snoranger,

There is a hugh difference between a forklift that its sole purpose is to lift and drop at no or slow speed. We are talking about automobiles that drive at a average speed of 50-70 on highway.

You have no comparison what so ever. Forklifts are commercial use only and do not have the availability of a lock up at a rate of speed that I am talking about. Commercial use is not the question here. Anything human or man/machine made part can fail, and the rate of what and how we as drivers use our vehicles up (especially dual purpose) on the road is far from a forklift, and at much more dangerous speeds. I do not question your ability to drive a forklift, most everyone in their career search phase in my era has driven them and know the difference between the 2 applications.

Excuse me but it is orbital valve, not orbitrol(orbitrol sounds to me as a manufacturer of a orbital valve). Check with the sellers of the products by manufacturers, the manufacturer calls it orbital valve (orbital valve is self explanative as to why it is called that). Once again personal vs commercial. And in my 42 plus yrs on this planet, I have seen many of forklifts, back hoes, and graders, and the many others either on the job as a young tike to the experiences in the many yrs in the military go down due to leaks, temperature, and valve failure or a bursted line or two, so yes they do fail. And a comercial application vs a personal appliction, you are talking a vast difference in size, sturdiness, construction, and wt of parts, not to mention the torque requirements on a commercial vehicle. And when speaking of high speed application, the failure rate goes up with it.

As I stated before, that is why they are not intended for street use, if you have failure on the trail or rocks, it happens at a crawl or very low speed, so of course it is allowed. But not at highway speeds. I would never allow a friend family nor foe to drive a vehicle that had full hydro steer set-up. I will not take that chance of what you claim as would not happen accident at a high rate of speed and kill them or anyone else. Would you risk that theory with your own wife or child? I think not.

How can you agree to one and not the other, you can not have it both ways, with FULL hydro steer, there is no linkage between you the steering wheel and the hydro set-up. The only way you have a direct link between you and the wheels is by way of Hydro Assist, which is hugh assistance to your stock set-up. So which is it?

I am not trying to be defensive with you, but the biggest misconception is that of commercial equipment vs personal vehicle.
 






:popcorn:
 












Is it responsive enough?

I know there are hydro assist rams, However I am asking about full on hydro steering with no direct link from wheel to gear box
Really depends on the hydraulic system ;). Responsiveness is dependent on the ratio [of volumes and flow rates] between the pump, its RPM, the steering cylinder, and the rate at which we would like the cylinder to move. This "responsiveness" does not factor in the force required from the cylinders - which often nulls down responiveness (causes the engine to bog down - which means flow rate goes down). The more force you need from the cylinder, the larger the cylinder you'd need (to stay within the operating limits of the hydraulic system's components, or else you'll blow a hose or something), which in turn means a larger pump to compensate for the increase in the cylinder's volume. The larger pump unfortunately means that the engine will need to produce more torque to actually provide the force at the cylinders. But of course all this doesnt really matter on the highway since the front wheels require very little effort to turn above a few dozen MPH (assuming that the vehicle has proper caster/camber specs).

So one of the problems with most implementation of a full hydraulic steering is that the pump is driven by the engine -which of course varies in not only RPM, but torque. So while the system may be able to produce 2,500 PSI at 3k rpm, let go of the pedal and its only giving you a fraction of that at idle - sucky for rock crawling. One way to get around this is with an electric hydraulic pump. But electric hydraulic pumps have their own negatives - one of which is noise (example: a car lift's hydraulic pump -- makes that distinct whining sound).
 






So a popular magazine used a full hydro steer to eliminate the electric assist IFS rack in their ultimate adventure ( drive on highways to the trails for a week) Ford F150

This is why I ask. It must be doable?

It really seems to be a vague issue now. I have always been told not to do it because there is no direct linkage....Im going to do some more searching.



Oh check this link out. Not sure how valid this is.
 






as far as i know, the steering wheel, needs to be connected to the wheels.
 







That is the same link I posted earlier, and yes, you must have a connection from the steering wheel to the wheels mechanically. You may get away with it for a bit, but a cop with a bad day will get ya and knows what he is looking at, and if you are in a inspection state, you damn sure will not pass, hell heim joints are illegal in alot of states.
 






Well, I thought the "ultimate adventure" trucks all had to be street legal. The magazines own lead truck had a 3 foot long steering ram in place of the rack. It is all laid out in the new issue, which went to the mail after the adventure was completed. In other words, they did it, then showed the hydro steer. I am thinking it wasn't all that "street legal".
 






Well, I thought the "ultimate adventure" trucks all had to be street legal. The magazines own lead truck had a 3 foot long steering ram in place of the rack. It is all laid out in the new issue, which went to the mail after the adventure was completed. In other words, they did it, then showed the hydro steer. I am thinking it wasn't all that "street legal".
They're never all 100% street legal ;). That's kinda how I ran my Explorer for a bit - it was "street legal" only until the next ticket. After a few tickets, I just got tired of it and said fork it.
 






WOW, you came up with a whole list of companies that dont know the real name of the part. :thumbsup:

You must be right, you read about it on the internet!

Heres the company that invented the valve, Eaton/Char-lynn:

http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/C-STCU-TB003-E.pdf

http://www.eaton.com/EatonComJapan/e-index/Products/EFPL/SteeringControlUnit/TypicalSteeringwithOrbitrol/index.htm

And when you get away from the off-road industry and get into the industrial industry, the name magically changes to orbitrol.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=848824 <-- If nothing else, read this one.


http://stores.jrhydraulicsales.com/-strse-Eaton-Char-Lynn-cln-Steering/searchpath/109640053/start/10/total/28/Categories.bok

http://www.fpti.org/prod_cm-osv.html



Orbitrol® is a registered trademark used for Hydraulic Power Steering Apparatus For Vehicles and Machinery, Such As, Farm Equipment, Lift Trucks, Construction Machinery, and Boats and owned by Eaton Corporation, Char Lynn Company. Full trade mark registration details, registered images and more information below.

View more »
orbitrol
Goods and/or Services:

Hydraulic Power Steering Apparatus For Vehicles and Machinery, Such As, Farm Equipment, Lift Trucks, Construction Machinery, and Boats
Serial Number: 72125149
Registration Number: 0743734
Filing Date: Aug 1, 1961
Last Applicant(s)/
Owner(s) of Record
Eaton Corporation
1111 Superior Avenue
Cleveland, Oh 44114 US
Char Lynn Company
2843 26th Ave. S.
Minneapolis, Mn US


The item in question was first made by Char-lynn (thats is why it will be called a Char-Lynn valve by old timers) and named an ORBITROL valve. Eaton later bought out Char-Lynn. It has since been referred to as an orbital valve by enough people who dont know what they are talking about that the name stuck. Call it an Orbitrol valve, a hydrostatic steering valve, steering control valve, etc; just dont call it an orbital valve around someone in the industry, it will make you sound like you dont know what your talking about.

How can you agree to one and not the other, you can not have it both ways, with FULL hydro steer, there is no linkage between you the steering wheel and the hydro set-up. The only way you have a direct link between you and the wheels is by way of Hydro Assist, which is hugh assistance to your stock set-up. So which is it?

I never said he should run FHPS on the road, I wouldnt. All I said was I have never seen the instant complete failure of an Orbitrol valve. Hoses can blow, cylinders can crack, pistons can break inside the cyl, gland nuts can explode right out of the cyl, rods can bend and jam. Any of these will leave you with no steering and I've seen them all happen. Thats why I said:
I do agree that you should have a direct link between the wheel and the tires if you plan on driving on the road.

Jon, I should have made a point in saying this in my first post. Dont do it, not on the road. I've seen a lot of failures in hydraulic systems over the years which would leave you with no steering instantly.


I do not question your ability to drive a forklift, most everyone in their career search phase in my era has driven them and know the difference between the 2 applications.
For the record -- I dont drive a forklift. I'm the head mechanic for a forklift repair company. I'm in charge of a fleet of 30 or so trucks in the main location, ranging from 5K to 25K lbs capacity. In total, I'm in charge of the repairs and maintenance of over 400 pieces of equipment (including forklifts, bucket loaders, bulldozers, empty and loaded container handlers, tractor-trailers, etc). I rebuild/restore older forklifts when we get slow at work, and I study their history.
 






I never said he should run FHPS on the road, I wouldnt. All I said was I have never seen the instant complete failure of an Orbitrol valve. Hoses can blow, cylinders can crack, pistons can break inside the cyl, gland nuts can explode right out of the cyl, rods can bend and jam. Any of these will leave you with no steering and I've seen them all happen. Thats why I said:


Jon, I should have made a point in saying this in my first post. Dont do it, not on the road. I've seen a lot of failures in hydraulic systems over the years which would leave you with no steering instantly.

:thumbsup: at least we agree with one thing. But it is all good bud, ;)
 












Back
Top