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Its bad for your car to let it idle in the morning?

ryf

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Fox88..well in this case, chew's professor presented all the data as FACTS, then gave the "punchline" at the end. so of course it sours the whole concept, Like clinton sleeping with whats her face... no one cares he did it, but he shouldn't have misled everyone. thats the difference between an enviromentalist and a treehugger, in my opinion anyway. The enviromentalist is using both knowledge and commonsense to get what changes they can get. Treehuggers just act like tards and wonder why they get ignored.

If it was MY teacher, I'd take it to the dean and complain he's forcing his environut beliefs on me, and using his classes as a captive audience to force his political/personal agenda on his students, is this what (me, my parents, and my student loans) are paying for????.....once you've taken your final anyway.
 



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checkedout

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I proclaim that the "facts" in his email are BS and while I am not an engineer, I did stay in a holiday inn last night! thankyewverymuch! Also, his quoted "experts" are his friends.
 






briwayjones

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I heard a car guy once say it's bad to let your vehicle idle and warm up for a prolonged time when it's cold. One of or the main reason he gave was because it builds up condensation in the oil and engine.
 






gijoecam

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I didn't see a single legitimate argument in that entire article. I kept waiting for the author to get down to brass tacks on what damage idling causes, and he never got around to it.

And for the record, this anthropologist author had BETTER be a darn-old man.... He supposedly spent more than 30 years as an engineer, which would have made him at least 52 when he started his anthropology studies, figure a couple more years of school there, then his teaching certification, and if this guy isn't in his late 50s or early 60s, he's a liar on top of all the BS.

A cold engine experiences excessive wear due to the rich mixture required by the EFI system. This tends to wash fuel from the cylinder walls and aggravates wear between the rings and cylinder bores.

First, I thought that at warm-up the engine runs a little lean? And isn't all the fuel vaporized by the time it reaches the sombustion chamber anyhow?

Ideal warm up is probably between 1500 and 2000 RPM, the engine would see this in moderate driving conditions.

I don't know about yours, but mine idles about 13-1400 for about 25 seconds anyways.... why does the load on it make a difference, if oil flow is based on engine RPM, not load?

His last paragraph makes his agenda pretty clear. Until I see some empirical data to back up the rant, I'm flyin' the BS flag high above this one!! Show me a fleet of 200 vehicles with numerous miles on them.... say 300,000 miles+, half of which were always shut down when stopped, the other half of which ran as close to continuously as they could (idle and all). Then, take that fleet, tear down the engines, and tell me which ones showed more internal wear, show me that group A had thses characteristics, and group B had these different characteristics, show me that Group A had X number of engine failures and group B had Y number of failures and I'll happily buy the argument. heck, for that matter, I'll even stop idling my own truck in the morning and remove my girlfriend's remote starter for her..... Until then, no way, Jose!!

Everything in that article is opinion and hear-say. Show me some DATA!!
 






Chew_12

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gijoecam said:
I didn't see a single legitimate argument in that entire article. I kept waiting for the author to get down to brass tacks on what damage idling causes, and he never got around to it.

And for the record, this anthropologist author had BETTER be a darn-old man.... He supposedly spent more than 30 years as an engineer, which would have made him at least 52 when he started his anthropology studies, figure a couple more years of school there, then his teaching certification, and if this guy isn't in his late 50s or early 60s, he's a liar on top of all the BS.



First, I thought that at warm-up the engine runs a little lean? And isn't all the fuel vaporized by the time it reaches the sombustion chamber anyhow?



I don't know about yours, but mine idles about 13-1400 for about 25 seconds anyways.... why does the load on it make a difference, if oil flow is based on engine RPM, not load?

His last paragraph makes his agenda pretty clear. Until I see some empirical data to back up the rant, I'm flyin' the BS flag high above this one!! Show me a fleet of 200 vehicles with numerous miles on them.... say 300,000 miles+, half of which were always shut down when stopped, the other half of which ran as close to continuously as they could (idle and all). Then, take that fleet, tear down the engines, and tell me which ones showed more internal wear, show me that group A had thses characteristics, and group B had these different characteristics, show me that Group A had X number of engine failures and group B had Y number of failures and I'll happily buy the argument. heck, for that matter, I'll even stop idling my own truck in the morning and remove my girlfriend's remote starter for her..... Until then, no way, Jose!!

Everything in that article is opinion and hear-say. Show me some DATA!!

Most people on here say its BS but cant say any facts. How can you say its BS when you have no facts?? You ask him for facts, and he kinda gives some but you guys say its BS, you needs facts to prove his facts wrong. We wont prove anything if we say its BS and dont back it up.
 






Turdle

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Chew_12 said:
Most people on here say its BS but cant say any facts. How can you say its BS when you have no facts?? You ask him for facts, and he kinda gives some but you guys say its BS, you needs facts to prove his facts wrong. We wont prove anything if we say its BS and dont back it up.
Hey, shouldn't you be studying? :D
 












410Fortune

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My truck must be WARM or I wont be able to SEE
Dont forget once you just removed 6" of snow and scrapped .25" of ice off all your windows and get in, I cannot just drive off, the windows will fog up in 2 seconds, as soon as I breathe. Put on the defroster and it sometimes takes operating temp before I can safely drive.

I wear winter clothes and heavy gloves sometimes for half the ride to work because it gets so cold here it takes that long for the heater to defrost everything.
There is no way you can expect me to get in, start it up, and throw it in R and go on mornings like that just to help reduce some emissions.
This is not irresponsible behavior on my part, it's FROZEN out there....


damn environmental wacko's! :confused: go burn a Hummer dealership....
 






gijoecam

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I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, and I never claimed to have all the data. I simply don't agree with the guy, and the burden of evidence isn't on me to prove him wrong. He's preaching against a practice based on some limited knowledge and the suggestions of some other people, and those preachings run contrary to 100 years of the warming-up practice. I'm not saying he's wrong or right, I simply haven't seen any evidence on his part to back up what he's saying. I can tell you that the sky is orange and the grass is purple, and probably find some 'scientists' on the internet to back it up, but that doesn't mean I'm right.

As for his examples, half of the links either didn't work, or I couldn't find the actual articles on the site. However, the one referring to Pat Goss turned up something interesting. If you look at the WHOLE answer, it shows how the author left out some important info (accent added):
Q: I have a question about whether or not you should warm up your vehicle in the wintertime by just letting it sit there idle, or is it best just to go ahead once you start up your vehicle is just to start driving?

A: WE WENT TO CAR EXPERT PAT GOSS FOR THE ANSWER. PAT SAYS THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO WARM YOUR CAR IS TO LET IT IDLE FOR ONE MINUTE.

THEN YOU SHOULD DRIVE YOUR CAR GENTLY UNTIL THE INTERIOR TEMPERATURE BECOMES COMFORTABLE.

HOWEVER, IF THERE IS A COATING OF ICE ON YOUR CAR, YOU SHOULD LET THE CAR WARM UP FOR SEVERAL MINUTES UNTIL YOU CAN DE-ICE YOUR CAR.

I don't think Pat Goss said it was BAD to let it warm up, did he?

From the Nova Scotia site:
If the windows are fogged up, put on the defroster and wait until it takes effect before driving off.

Again, nowhere on their page do they say it's BAD to let it idle.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying the argument. Sure, it saves gas, and sure it probably isn't necessary, but I highly doubt that driving a cold engine does LESS wear than letting it idle. I'm just not buying it.

The bottom line is that all engines have a finite life. The pistons will only go up and down X number of times. The Cams will only grind the lifters so many times. The crank bearings are only good for some many revolutions at such-and-such load, and once any of those components reaches its limit, the engine will stop. There are some things that you can do to maximize its life, as with any product, but eventually, it's going to wear out and fail. It's the nature of the internal combustion engine, and has been for over a century now. Until someone develops the Mister Fusion from Back to the Future III, I think we're stuck with it.... And I'll continue to warm up the engine on cold mornings.

-Joe
 






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Chew_12 said:
Sadly Yes.... :(
Well, the way I see it, when you graduate, then You will have the information on this subject, and will settle it once and for all
Then all these naysayers will respect your authoritae
wait what am I saying? It will just stir the can of opinions ( and we are ALL opinionated here)
Chew, I repect you for what you are doing, and applaud any kid trying in school
Good luck with finals man!
 






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jtsmith said:
Well, the way I see it, when you graduate, then You will have the information on this subject, and will settle it once and for all
Then all these naysayers will respect your authoritae
wait what am I saying? It will just stir the can of opinions ( and we are ALL opinionated here)
Chew, I repect you for what you are doing, and applaud any kid trying in school
Good luck with finals man!


haha, thanks, But im not trying to prove anything. I am leaning towards that my teacher is wrong however I still dont see strong evidence he is totally wrong or right. I just see a bunch of opinions and a couple of facts on the first page. I see a lot of good points and common sense but those dont hold up against good facts. I wish everyone would stop calling him names because he is a real nice guy. Just focus on your points and prove them.
 






Chew_12

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Ok so after reading again this is the points he is trying to prove:

1. Idling for more than 1 minute hurts your car - Mostly Everyone disagrees with, however there is no facts just a lot of common sense.

2. Idling for more than 1 minute hurts the enviroment - well any exhaust hurts the enviorment.

3. You car only needs to sit about a minute in pretty cold conditions to get warm - Some people disagree with this, however Spindlecone has results that say it only takes 10 - 15 seconds for the car to reach operating temps (if i read that right).

spindlecone said:
On 35 deg mornings, this past week, my scangauge reports open loop for about 5 secs, than it will report closed loop.
Heated sensors come up to full temp (600/650 degs) in no less than 10/15 secs in any cold clime
 






BeauJ

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Chew_12 said:
Ok so after reading again this is the points he is trying to prove:

1. Idling for more than 1 minute hurts your car
2. Idling for more than 1 minute hurts the enviroment
3. You car only needs to sit about a minute in pretty cold conditions to get warm.

Like I said earlier:

1. Any time your engine is running, it's running up it's death clock, much like a human body. With every mile, the engine doesn't self heal. Also, to the people who say idling is worse than driving, please explain?? Does your engine know when the transmission is engaged and turn off the "damage" button??

2. That's for everyone to decide on their own. I'm sure it doesn't help.

3. When I crank up my truck and drive off, it takes almost 10 minutes for the needle to get up to normal operating temperature. I timed it this morning in 29* weather. Now, if I crank my truck up with ice on the windows, put defroster wide open on heat, it's not ever gonna be remotely warm within a minute. I give it a good 5-7 minutes before I even turn the wipers on to get rid of the excess ice.
 






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Chew_12 said:
Ok so after reading again this is the points he is trying to prove:

1. Idling for more than 1 minute hurts your car
2. Idling for more than 1 minute hurts the enviroment
3. You car only needs to sit about a minute in pretty cold conditions to get warm.

1. Then every time you sit at a stoplight or are caught in a traffic jam you're hurting your car. If this were the case, then how come most vehicles out there last well over 100k when properly maintained? I will agree that if you let your car idle for extended periods of time (>10 minutes) without sufficient oil pressure (due to the low rpm's) you will damage the motor, but for a car in good working condition he's wrong.

2. Yep...all exhaust from fossil fuels can harm the environment for mankind. Millions of years from now when mankind is long gone from the face of earth, the planet and it's environment will still be here. What we are actually doing is altering the environment unfavorably for man, not for the planet. It will take care of itself, even if we f**k it up for ourselves.

3. Wrong again. The metals in the motor will not be warm in one minute. See my previous post about piston slap. Yes you will get the fluids flowing, but they will not be at optimal operating conditions that fast. Dino oil takes more time than that to get to it's most effective operating temperature.

The biggest thing idling does is eat up fuel and expel exhaust gasses. If that's his real agenda, then just come out and say it, don't try to dazzle people with "scientific information" that isn't correct.
 






Chew_12

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BeauJ said:
3. When I crank up my truck and drive off, it takes almost 10 minutes for the needle to get up to normal operating temperature. I timed it this morning in 29* weather. Now, if I crank my truck up with ice on the windows, put defroster wide open on heat, it's not ever gonna be remotely warm within a minute. I give it a good 5-7 minutes before I even turn the wipers on to get rid of the excess ice.

I have a couple of questions: Do all temperature guages go by a sensor in the coolant? Would the coolant be the best way to guage how hot the engine is and if it ready to run?
 






JDraper

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Chew_12 said:
I have a couple of questions: Do all temperature guages go by a sensor in the coolant? Would the coolant be the best way to guage how hot the engine is and if it ready to run?


In general, yes they do go by the coolant temp if the gauge is a real gauge and not just a glorified idiot light.
 






BeauJ

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Chew_12 said:
I have a couple of questions: Do all temperature guages go by a sensor in the coolant? Would the coolant be the best way to guage how hot the engine is and if it ready to run?

Not always unless it's "real" like Jeff said. But it does give you a good sense of normal operating temperature
 






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JDraper said:
In general, yes they do go by the coolant temp if the gauge is a real gauge and not just a glorified idiot light.


If you want to be more precise, you could use a scan tool and read the output from the ECT sensor.

Actually, rather than speculate, it would be easy with a scan tool and timer to gather some data on which way warms up faster. Assuming you have two days with roughly the same starting ambient temp (say +/- 2 deg) you could try idling and finding the time to get to operating temp (steady state, thermostat open, closed loop, etc) and then try the same by driving away within 30 sec of starting.
 






TheFox88

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Chew_12 said:
Im not say being "green" is bad, not at all. I think those people are helping the enviroment tremendiously! I think the world would be a lot worse without them. Im was just saying that he cares about nature and alters his life to help nature, and tries to alter other peoples lives too. Flagstaff is a awesome city with the trees and nature all around. I noticed while living around here that I am more nature friendly (other than my truck). I'm sure you feel 10x more that way because you have lived here most of your life(I think).
It sounded like you're defending yourself here. I didn't mean this as an attack against you or anyone else, just putting some stuff out there. Sorry if my post came across as hostile, I didn't mean it that way.

I was born at Flagstaff Medical Center and have lived here my whole life, so as you stated i DO have a certain attachment to the subject. This attachment does not make me blind to facts though.

-Now as far as the subject goes, in my mind only, i don't have facts per sae, but this is my logic thinking. Engines are damaged when they run. Period. The amount they are damaged however, varies. It seems to me that the higher the RPMs, the higher the damage. If this is true, then that means driving (higher RPMs than idle) is worse for the engine. Now, i would think that a higher Load on an engine would also mean more damage. Again driving would put more load on the engine=more damage.
-I don't know anything about what oil pressure is and the differences in temp between the metals and how that would affect the engine. I do remember from my Physics class that the most efficient engine is the one that varis in temperature the most from the outside environment. This would seem to me to mean that the warmed up engine would be the best in terms of effiencey (sp?).
-If i think of anything else, i will post later.
 



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TheFox88

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Chew_12 said:
Sadly Yes.... :(
I know how you feel man. I'm not sure if you knew but i was taking a math course at NAU this semester through concurrent enrollment. We had our final today, and man am i glad that's over. Good luck with your finals.
 






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