Lets talk engine packages

[chriswells78]

I know there are not a ton of folks on here with majorly modified 5.0 motors in their rigs so lets talk a major overhaul.

I'm probably going to have some money left over after I find another truck. I'm looking for one with ~100-150k and a clear title with possibly a bad motor or tranny. I've got a couple of bids in on Ebay and been searching the typical F/S sites, I'll get one eventually and swap my good motor, tranny or both from my truck into the "new" one. If the price is right, I'll have a decent amount of $ left to play with.

So, here's the type of things I'm thinking about. Before anyone says anything, I wanna keep the AWD for now and I don't want an SAS. PERIOD! I'm thinking lockers but that will come later. Right now I want power. The 5.0 stock power is decent, but I've been thinking much more is obtainable through things like heads, cam, intake etc. I really don't want to get into the bottom end.

I'm already planning on TM headers and an Xcal2

After a little research I found the Trick Flow EFI Mustang package for about $2200 that claims 350hp and 370tq.

What are you all's thoughts on this set up in an Ex or Mounty?

 

[section525]

Since you already have a decent intake and heads, I would concentrate on swapping in a camshaft, getting the TMHs, and definitely some sort of chip.

I think upgrading from the GT40s to the Trickflows wouldn't be worth the money. You're not trying to shave seconds off your track time.

I'm pretty satisfied with all my mods (intake, e-cam, 1.6RR, TMH, exhaust, Apten chip) except for the chip. I think there's a lot of better options out there now.

With $2200 you could get a cam and rockers and probably a powerdyne!

 

[chriswells78]

I don't really want to go the blower route, I don't think it would do well for the type of off roading we have here. Have you dyno'ed your truck to see what kind of results your getting? I was thining 2200 was high, but I know there has been progress made on the intake side over the stock Cobra style. For example, I've heard good things about the BBK 5.0 intake, but I don't think anyone has tried one on an Ex or Mounty yet.

How did you come to the conclusiton of the E cam?

 

[section525]

Mine dynoed at 210rwhp. That's with the AWD tcase with no front shaft. I feel that a lot of power is lost through the 4404. I really need to go back now that I have true 4wd (2wd). Probably after I get a decent chip I will.

I went with the e-303 because it was pretty much the tamest FMS cam. The other FMS cams all make their most power in rpm ranges outside what an Explorer can even reach. :

But, there are definitely better choices of cams out there. A custom grind would be the way to go.

 

[rocket 5979]

It seems you want more power for a lighter duty trail rig. If that is the case then the name of the game is more about power down low than anything else. In that case why don't you start off with gears so that powerband can be shifted lower in the speed range?

I suggest that with all the cam options out there do not even bother with a Ford letter cam like the E or anything else. Go with something from Comp, Trickflow, Crane or the such. When searching their sites for the cam specs just make sure that the cam spec sheet says that the meat of the powerband starts damn near right off idle. If you get anything higher than that then it will take longer to get into the power. The gears will help you rev quicker, but it is best if all the stuff somewhat matches up to make the best combo possible.

I know a GT-40P head porter who has gained some killer numbers out of the P heads. When worked the P heads can really make some power. What I suggest you do is to have the P heads ported and polished and then decked down a little bit so that compression will be brought up. When decking you will have to ensure that the valves do not come into contact with the pistons. If they do then a simple shallow flycut on the pictons will solve this with most normal lift height cams. This whole porting, polishing, decking, and flycut job will likely cost almost as much as new aluminum heads. The bigger difference will be that you will be making damn near as much power and allot more torque than those other "stock" aftermarket heads. The problem with most aftermarket 5.0 heads is that it is sometimes hard to find any of them that flow well without having huge combustion chambers. That will drop your compression even further which really makes for a sluggish ride.

You can either keep the stocker intake and port it or the better route would be to go with a Trickflow Street intake that has somewhat longer intake runners that will keep the torque but also help make some more power too. Make sure that the fella porting your P heads also makes sure all the ports are matched between the heads and lower intake. Usually the ports are close but it is always nice to make sure.

If you do all that and the normal bolt ons it will make for a pretty sick rig.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

I'm resaerching pretty much the same kind of build. Summit Racing has FMS Aluminum GT40 heads for about $1200. They have 160cc intake runners 64cc combustion chambers & 58cc exhaust ports.

The problem with aftermarket heads that jtsmith pointed out to me is the Torque Monster headers may not bolt up. He has Edelbrock heads and had to have different flanges made for his headers.

There is a Crane Cam with numbers close to the E cam.

E303 cam .498/.498 @ .050 220*/220* lobe seperation.

Crane Cam & lifter kit #CRN443512:
.490/.504 @ .050 218*/224* lobe seperation.

The power range on the Crane Cam is 1800-5800 rpm.

 

[rocket 5979]

I'm resaerching pretty much the same kind of build. Summit Racing has FMS Aluminum GT40 heads for about $1200. They have 160cc intake runners 64cc combustion chambers & 58cc exhaust ports.

The problem with aftermarket heads that jtsmith pointed out to me is the Torque Monster headers may not bolt up. He has Edelbrock heads and had to have different flanges made for his headers.

There is a Crane Cam with numbers close to the E cam.

E303 cam .498/.498 @ .050 220*/220* lobe seperation.

Crane Cam & lifter kit #CRN443512:
.490/.504 @ .050 218*/224* lobe seperation.

The power range on the Crane Cam is 1800-5800 rpm.

Dan, the 64 cc combustion chambers on those GT-40 heads will kill compression. Do you plan to get them decked down quite a bit or are you running some pistons with smaller dishes? Those GT-40 heads will not gain allot of power over the GT-40P heads. Theh flow numbers make it look like the hat would be tilted towards the GT-40's but the way the spark plug angles into the combustion chamber on the P heads really makes a huge difference in combustion speed and total burn. There are better head options out there for you than the regular alum GT-40's.

BTW, you posted your cam specs wrong. You mixed up the intake/exhaust duration with lobe separation. For example the E-303 cam has 110 degrees of lobe separation. This will usually dictate how lopey your idle becomes. Usually it is reccomended to keep to 112 LSA or higher to keep decent idle for a daily driver. 110 LSA isn't terrible but it will tend to shake things up a bit.

Also that power range on that Crane starts too high to put that cam to any good use in a truck. Unless you plan on revving to 6,000 rpms on a regular basis then I suggest something with the powerband a little lower in the rev range.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

I goofed on the Crane Cam in more ways than one. I thought it was a roller cam but it's hydrauic flat tappet cam instead.

 

[CDW6212R]

Ditto what Rob already mentioned. The Ford cams are all way too large for a heavy low rpm vehicle(Explorer, 5000rpm).

Choose a cam with less intake duration, @0.50 duration is the critical figure. All of the Ford cams are over 220 degrees, the stock cams are all in the 204 range. Choose something in the middle of that, say 214 duration @0.50.

I have a used Wolverine cam that I had put into a 91 302HO for a 95 Cobra. I chose it for lower rpm, not 6000+rpm. Its specs of 212/222 are better suited to a small V8 in an Explorer. I'll try it for my stock shortblock/supercharger first combination.

Call camshaft makers for their tech line advice, they are the experts. Good luck,

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Rocket,

The pistons I'm looking at have a comp. ratio of 9.71 with 64cc chamber heads.

CDW,

What should I look at for lift?

 

[rocket 5979]

Rocket,

The pistons I'm looking at have a comp. ratio of 9.71 with 64cc chamber heads.

CDW,

What should I look at for lift?

Heck, if you don't plan to go with a blower then you could stand to bump your compression up a little more to get some additional hp. After all, if you are investing the money to build then why leave free hp out there. Just a thought. Of course there are other governing factors besides just power that affect these decisions.

One thing you will want to pay close attention to is piston to valve clearance (PTV). This will all be dependant upon your heads, cam lift specs, rr ratio, piston shape, and valve size. It is always good after doing allot of in depth mods to your valvetrain to make sure there will be no interference.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

I'm wanting to be able to use 87 octane since gas prices are getting outrageous again.

I'm assuming a hydraulic (non roller) cam can't be used in a roller cam block.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

What about this cam?

http://cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=444211&lvl=2&prt=5

 

[CDW6212R]

Dan, you don't want to use a non-roller cam, performance and fuel economy would drop. The lift numbers are almost insignificant, as are the advertised duration. Only the lift as it relates to piston clearance should you care about. Roller cams are able to achieve greater lift numbers, but their real advantage is that they can reach decent lifts fast, and hold them longer. The duration and lobe separation are the key numbers for a consumer to look at.

You mentioned keeping the shortblock stock, so I left out the compression change.
I agree with Rob, raising compression from the low 9:1 that Ford uses would gain more power than anything else. If you invest the time it takes to properly match a higher compression and camshaft to your vehicle, you will be very satisfied. If you do go much above 9.5:1 compression, the most critical decision will be the camshaft choice. I understand the 87 octane factor, it is critical to have the right cam to allow proper timing with high compression. The wrong cam with high compression will require very low timing, which kills power and fuel economy.

If you are willing to spend $2000-$3000, you might be able to maintain your heads, bump to close to 10:1 compression, and run regular gas. Contact several big engine builders about higher compression and camshafts. Try to find one which shows enthusiasm for your project and goals. Those type of builders are more likely to be able to succed in choosing a proper cam and compression combination.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Don, nothing is set in stone. I'm getting Jon's (jtsmith) 102,000 mile short block. He sold the heads so this is why I'm trying to figure out what head to go with.

I'm thinking of going with a forged crank, piston & rod set but that is not a definate. Would the cast crank, pistons & rods that are in the block be fine for what I'm trying to achieve (300 hp)? For peace if mind I would at least like to go with forged psitons.

I plan on using the stock intake. Will it support 300 hp or should I use an aftermarket intake?

 

[CDW6212R]

The Explorer intake is within a few hp of all of the considered best intakes. It's better than almost all stock intakes, the GT40 is the toss up(high rpm). Don't change it, unless appearance is your goal.

So you have a stock 102k engine with hypereutectic pistons? It's tough to make significant changes while keeping so many stock parts. I'll assume that Jon gave you a good deal, and you are using it as a build and swap project, that's how I like to do engines.

Beyond some dollar level it is cheaper to buy a crate shortblock, or longblock. So that suggests that you are going to reduce costs by keeping most of the shortblock, swapping just items like pistons and camshaft. That said, I would look for a light piston set that will raise compression a good bit, and a camshaft that will work well with it. You should spend a few hundred dollars on machine work, quality work with torque plates and high quality honing, valve jobs, etc. Balancing the assembly should be a main factor, the stock crank/rods can do fine with 300hp or so, with quality build parts and machining.

If that's in your ball park, than concentrate on two things. Spend plenty of time hunting a good piston(compression)/camshaft combination. I mean speaking with engine builders who specialize in 302 crate engines or short blocks. You need to really nail down that compression choice with a compatible cam.

I have an old magazine where some company built a 351W with 11:1 compression on 87 octane gas, using long connecting rods, and obviously a well chosen camshaft.

The rest of your task should be collecting the support parts, the machine work, and choosing heads. As mentioned, the stock GT40P heads are good choices for the 302 and rpm band. See what it will cost for those heads and machine work. Weigh that against a low cost aftermarket set of complete aluminum heads. Those often need a machine shop to go back through them.

I have an $800 set of heads in mind for my first engine combo, which I'll choose as small port/chamber heads for my stock 97 Explorer 302 I have. I'll have to change again with a final engine combination. Do some pricing first, and good luck.

 

[reserved50]

slap in some heads(AFR 165s) and an E-cam and call it a day, pistons should clear(if not, break out the dremel)

 

[CDW6212R]

Damn the Ford letter cams, I would not waste $10 on one, they are made like I would expect an enemy to make them, for low performance. Every intelligent Ford engine builder knows that all Fords have awful exhaust ports. They all need more exhaust valve opening than the intake side. All of those Ford letter cams have equal intake/exhaust timing, thus they all suck. That's my not-so-humble opinion about that. Regards,

 

[chriswells78]

So for mine, Like I said, I don't want to mess with the bottom end. Have the stock heads ported, polished and redecked. Maybe taking a little extra off during re-decking to up the compression ratio a smidge.

Then find a cam, it appears as though if you want a power band starting at around 1000rpm you have to have 110-111 degrees of lobe separation. That is just an observation of my research since Rob's post above. Even the E303 has 110 degrees. I did find this one from crane cams : http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN-364215&autoview=sku it offers 112 degree separation but slightly shorter duration than the E and slightly less lift on both valves.

After reading this thread, the concensus seems to be to keep the stock intake, maybe add one of those spacer deals and a bigger TB.

So how about getting fuel to this combination? With PP/GT40P heads, would the stock injectors handle a slightly higher compression ratio and more agressive cam or would I need to upgrade them. How about the pump as well?

Obviously, all of this is also going to need a tune.

 

[rocket 5979]

slap in some heads(AFR 165s) and an E-cam and call it a day, pistons should clear(if not, break out the dremel)

Your reccomendation is nott really rooted in logic. First of all, the AFR's do flow allot but are usually heads that make more hp and not such great torque. The E-cam is a joke for these trucks so I do not reccomend that either. And don't even get me started on flycutting your pistons with a dremel tool. Jesus man this isn't your backyard lawnmower engine rebuild.

Flycutting your pistons the proper way is not a terribly hard task and the tools required to do so do not cost much either.

Reserved, had Dan actually went with your reccomendation he would have wasted too much money on a combo that would be nowhere near what could be as efficient as possible. I understand that you want to help, but please think about things before giving a reccomendation.








Dan, I assume your 300 horsepower goal is at the crank and not the rear wheels. Getting 300 hp at the crank is not really hard at all with these 302's. Get some mild port/valve job work done to your stocker P heads for about $1000. Yes, if you get more work done then the price will go up from there but $1000 worth of work will give you some great gains. Get the cam. Port your stocker intake. And then do all the boltons tot support it with a good tune and you will be pretty darn close to 300 hp in total.

If I can find the contact info on the GT-40P head porter I talked to a little over a month ago then I will shoot it your way. I have confidence that this guy knows his stuff based upon all the reccomendations given for him as well as the conversations we have had.