Lets talk engine packages

[rocket 5979]

So for mine, Like I said, I don't want to mess with the bottom end. Have the stock heads ported, polished and redecked. Maybe taking a little extra off during re-decking to up the compression ratio a smidge.

Then find a cam, it appears as though if you want a power band starting at around 1000rpm you have to have 110-111 degrees of lobe separation. That is just an observation of my research since Rob's post above. Even the E303 has 110 degrees. I did find this one from crane cams : http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN-364215&autoview=sku it offers 112 degree separation but slightly shorter duration than the E and slightly less lift on both valves.

After reading this thread, the concensus seems to be to keep the stock intake, maybe add one of those spacer deals and a bigger TB.

So how about getting fuel to this combination? With PP/GT40P heads, would the stock injectors handle a slightly higher compression ratio and more agressive cam or would I need to upgrade them. How about the pump as well?

Obviously, all of this is also going to need a tune.

I would buy a used set of 24's off of someone with an older 5.0 Cobra. They usually sell pretty cheap for around $50-$100. You will probably not need to upgrade your fuel pump, but it cannot hurt to make sure you have plenty of fuel. The fuel pump mod would be an optional one assuming that you don't plan to go much above 300 horsepower.

 

[CDW6212R]

I'm sorry Chris, I got sidetracked with Dan's engine question also.
Most of the shortblocks you can buy will have lower compression, a cam that you likely won't use, and maybe lesser pistons than you would choose otherwise. The prices are good for the included parts, but if you don't use $500+ of those parts, then the cost isn't so good. Those are great for Mustangs and lighter vehicles, many being carbureted.

Those same builders though can usually build a custom combination, and a builder that knows how to match compression with a camshaft can be well worth the cost.

The stock engines are very good for what they are, to upgrade them though requires several hundred dollars for basic machining and basic rebuild parts. If you can combine that money with some decent heads, light pistons and cam, you should easily get past 300rwhp. The compression and camshaft are keys, and don't overdue the heads. The GT40's can do the job great, but there are tons of aftermarket heads that are too large for a 302 that never gets past 5000rpm. Good luck,

 

[chriswells78]

I don't want to buy another short block. I have a good engine with 107k on it in my totaled Mountaineer. I am looking for a replacement rig with my insurance money left after repurchasing my old truck. I have been searching for a Mountaineer/Explorer with a bad motor, tranny or both. I should be able to find one for less than $2000, leaving me with some $ to play with. I will take my current engine, build it up some, then plant it into the new truck. That is the purpose of this thread. I am looking for some advice about top end upgrades ad I don't want to open up the bottom. I am confident in my abilities to replace heads and cams, but I admittedly don't know what i'm doing when it comes to the bottom end and don't really have the desire to go into that territory. Stock pistons and crank should realistically hold 3300-400 HP with no problem for another 150k.

Our off roading here consists of a lot of muddy hill climbs, creek crossings and mud holes (bogs) making low end torque and HP crucial. I also use my truck on the road 5 days a week in the winter when the Stang gets put away so whatever I build has to be pretty streetable also. So this puts me in the planning stages of my motor while I search for a new truck.

So to this point the build is looking like TM headers, SCT tuner, Phonalic Spacer, Port and Polish my GT40P heads and a Crane Cams CRN-364215.

These would go on top of all of the other parts I'm going to swap from my totaled Mounty; K$N cone, MSD coils, Aroura Wires, full custom exhaust and all the suspension stuff.

 

[CDW6212R]

Chris, you mentioned an aftermarket $2200 package(I figured that to be a short block), I assumed from that that $2200 would be in the realm of possibility for your budget. If you have an engine out and available to build or work on, plus some money, at least the basic rebuild is in order. Experts will agree that good power is had from that basic freshening with balancing.

I spent $300 or so on rebuilding my stock 91 Lincoln LSC engine with 112k on it. The stock forged pistons were reused, plus the almost new Edelbrock heads and intake. The cost of camshaft, timing chain, bearings, seals, gaskets etc. pushed my total close to $1000.

You can get away with just working on the heads and intake, shave the heads a hair, check valve clearance. That likely won't get you to 300hp, and don't waste money on different injectors or pump, that combination won't need it. If you do that top end work, and can see spending money on the shortblock, try to find expert recommendations for lightweight pistons, to gain compression, plus a matching camshaft. The extra point in compression can be the difference between the 250hp level and 300hp. The low compression that Ford uses limits our power greatly, and it also makes supercharging inviting. Good luck on any direction you take.

 

[chriswells78]

Thanks Don. The engine package I mentioned above is by Trick Flow and contains a cam, heads, intake and associated gaskets to complete the job. I know how to change heads, cam and intake so it would be an easy swap, especially with the motor out. That is not my whole budget, but indeed having some left for lockers would be nice if I were to get the same or similar results from a cheaper set up.

 

[CDW6212R]

Cool, take your time selecting a combo, there are few people who know much about building good FI 302's for trucks, most will be Mustang guys who hear lots of parts swapping for high rpm drag cars. I always refer people to a real cam tech. at a cam manufacturer. They and real engine builders are the best to choose cams for any combination. Regards,

 

[rocket 5979]

You can get away with just working on the heads and intake, shave the heads a hair, check valve clearance. That likely won't get you to 300hp, and don't waste money on different injectors or pump, that combination won't need it. If you do that top end work, and can see spending money on the shortblock, try to find expert recommendations for lightweight pistons, to gain compression, plus a matching camshaft. The extra point in compression can be the difference between the 250hp level and 300hp. The low compression that Ford uses limits our power greatly, and it also makes supercharging inviting. Good luck on any direction you take.

Don, I have to somewhat disagree with you here. I have seen more than just one or two Fox Mustang fella's making well above 300rwhp with worked P heads, intake, cam, boltons and tune on a stocker bottom end. The cam used in those combo's had properties that weren't exactly super torquey though. Now of course Chris has AWD so he will not get anywhere close to that whp number but stockish parts such as P heads, stocker Cobra/Expllorer intake are capable of it in properly worked form.

Chris what kind of power are you looking at wanting to make? And is that figure you are talking about at the wheels or at the crank?

If Chris does get around the 350 hp area or above it will be adviseable to get the 24 lb/hr injectors instead of sticking with the stockers. With a N/A combo it is not as neccessary to upgrade the injectors as much as in a blown combo but at that N/A hp level it is reccomendable.

 

[reserved50]

well with all this great bench racing going on I feel like im in a civic forum, any links to dyno numbers from all these great combos listed cam with said heads listed, or this 1000$ stock head porting job on a dynoed engine with reference to this head porter? Any child of the corn knows anything over a sliver notched into the piston requires a cutter even if you are in a bind, goes without saying if you think you have the ability to re and re cylinder heads.

Yes some torque will be "lost" but it will not be less than what you started off with, all depends on the application, if such torque is needed at low RPM just add a roots blower, depends how much more you need from present(wasnt really talked about in depth). I know the cam is not the latest and the greatest, but for anyone trying to scrounge a few dollars and maybe a loss of a few hp its a bargain, its not a step backwards.

 

[chriswells78]

Chris what kind of power are you looking at wanting to make? And is that figure you are talking about at the wheels or at the crank?

I'd like to be in the range of 325-375 at the crank, this should realisticaly put me ~260-310 AWHP. This should be enough to bark the 31's when I want to, pass a slowpoke on a 2 lane or get up and snatch people out of the mud holes and climb some hills. I think all of this can be obtained around this HP and still not get too bad of gas mileage with the right combo and tune.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Don or Rob, what size are the intake ports and combustion chambers on the GT40P heads?

Also unlike Chris I will be doing a 4406 swap so I will be driving in 2wd most of the time.

 

[rocket 5979]

well with all this great bench racing going on I feel like im in a civic forum, any links to dyno numbers from all these great combos listed cam with said heads listed, or this 1000$ stock head porting job on a dynoed engine with reference to this head porter? Any child of the corn knows anything over a sliver notched into the piston requires a cutter even if you are in a bind, goes without saying if you think you have the ability to re and re cylinder heads.

Yes some torque will be "lost" but it will not be less than what you started off with, all depends on the application, if such torque is needed at low RPM just add a roots blower, depends how much more you need from present(wasnt really talked about in depth). I know the cam is not the latest and the greatest, but for anyone trying to scrounge a few dollars and maybe a loss of a few hp its a bargain, its not a step backwards.

Look here bro. Don't get your panties in a twist because you said something stupid and were called on it. Bench racing it talking allot of crap and not being able to back it up, whether that be with knowledge or proof. Do I have a dyno sheet sitting in front of me here? Obviously not, but I do know what some of these combos will make. As for the $1000 porting job. The full porting job will be more but if he is shooting for a lower goal then there is no need to go balls out and pay for something that will not be needed.

If you know that the flycutting has to be done in the proper manner then just say so. By saying what you did all you accomplished is making yourself look like a childish jerk who is just trolling this thread to say stupid comments. If you have something constructive to say then say it. Don't look surprised when people ridicule you when you say something totally dumb.

Just because he may be gaining more torque than before does not mean that he can possibly build a more efficient combo that will make even more torque. I mean why setup a combo that is only 3/4 as efficient as it could be when you can spend a little extra time planning and be as efficient as possible in keeping with the goal. Your "logic" is like me saying, "Well I won $5 on this scratch lotto card so I don't need to cash in my poowerball ticket worth $5,000,000 over here". Just doesn't seem rooted in logic to me especially when money is being forked over to make this stuff happen.

Also, going from a less than perfect combo with regards to the cam pick and bolting on a roots blower is taking it to a little bit of an extreme. How about just starting off trying to accompish the goal at hand and not setting things up in a way that will probably not be optimal? I understand that you probably meant the roots blower as an example but it was a poorly chosen one.

If you feel the combo would be better with another approach then make your point in a relevant manner, not in the one like you did in your post about "use a dremel". Come on man be constructive and try to actually help these guys out, not just spread BS comments on the thread for only your amusement.

 

[rocket 5979]

I'd like to be in the range of 325-375 at the crank, this should realisticaly put me ~260-310 AWHP. This should be enough to bark the 31's when I want to, pass a slowpoke on a 2 lane or get up and snatch people out of the mud holes and climb some hills. I think all of this can be obtained around this HP and still not get too bad of gas mileage with the right combo and tune.

You can make 375 at the crank on a stock bottom end (displacement) 302 but it will be expensive. It will be a challenge to get that much hp without starting to have to sacrifice torque for horsepower. You will have to be somewhat aggressive with your setup to hit 375. If that is really your goal then I would suggest you may think about leavng your P heads alone to sell them and get a set of aftermarket heads and have them worked. The P's might get you kind of close assuming everything else is optimal, but it will be a challenge and would make for one hell of a porting job ($$$) to be done on them as well as everything else. The difficulty factor is taking into consideration about trying to keep a decent amount of torque under the curve and not just at peak or in the higher rev range.

 

[CDW6212R]

Rob, I appreciate the help you offer to a lot of people, and I'm sure that they do as well. I have built a few engines for myself, and I do not have countless #'s of drag engine builds under my belt. I have read and observed a lot, learning the basics enough to do a respectable job for street engines.

Many people make plans for engines etc, and get sidetracked or steered into certain parts that end up lessening a combination. The reason I suggested numbers of 250hp and 300hp(rwhp), is for that reason, lots of engines that could have made 300, end up with only 250 due to some minor mismatch of parts.

Money is a big deal, lots more can be done with $5000 compared to $2000 or less. I have interest in Pro Comp heads, a friend pointed me to a link for a Mustang with them that dynoed just under 300hp. The heads were nice 215cc comparable to Edelbrock Jr's, capable of 8000rpm on a 302. That Mustang had a 302, stock shortblock, bigger injectors and cam, high end intake likely good for 7500rpm, and the engine was running a bit lean, and under 6000rpm. The heads were mismatched, the intake and cam as well, all surely chosen by benchracing and friend's suggestions. It makes all of the parts look bad, when the builder(designer) is at fault.

For decent engine power, basic quality machining and balancing should be first priority. The cost of that should be budgeted first off, then see what is left, and spread the money between other better parts. It isn't that expensive to raise compression while doing machine work. High quality pistons do cost more, that's the big upgrade there. Heads you can stay near stock for a couple hundred dollars, but easily you can step up to $500, or $1000, it depends on your goals.

The cams all cost a similar amount, so a big key is not the cost, but how you choose a camshaft. I can't select one competently at all compared to any expert cam maker. You will not find an expert cam maker casually on an internet forum. Everyone who buys a cam should consult with several tech line experts. Compare what they suggest, toss out the stuff that sounds really odd, and then go with one which sounded competent, and helpful. Bend their ears for long enough that they understand your goals and budget. Regards,

 

[chriswells78]

That is why I posted a range of 325 (what I would be happy with) and 375 (being what would be too much for a DD) If I can get 325+ I will be happy. TM headers, SCT and my intake should put me close to 270-280 at the crank. (215 stock + ~10 inake + ~20 for TM + ~15 my exhaust + ~10 for SCT+ ~5 intake heat spacer). Therefore, I should be 50 short of my desired HP range. PP GT-40P heads I'm going to guess at ~20Hp. So now we're at 295. So can I get 30-40 horse from a cam? I'm sure the tune will be worth more when heads and cam are done as well.

 

[CDW6212R]

That's why we suggested higher compression. You could get 50-75hp just from raising the compression, but only with the proper camshaft to compliment the compression. A small cam with high compression as an example will make too much cylinder pressure, and require far less timing, which kills performance. Only real pros can reliably match camshafts with higher compression. Good luck,

 

[reserved50]

So Im trying to weed out any info in this, theres reference to a 1000$ head port job, and a cam listed, if no one has ever had such a combo or ever had their bench racer combo dynoed I understand, its probably a great one in the making, cant wait for those numbers when he gets it done .
I know you will probably say his flow numbers from the 1000$ porter mean nothing, but can you post some and port volume also? this is a simple request and Im sure its nothing to boil over for the curious in your humble presence. If anyone you thinks gives 100% false advise you seem to temper easliy and start name calling, troll etc, lol.


So like I asked, ignore teh above and I'd like to see some flow numbers and specs or I'll take it as a grain of salt like most great things on the internet, very simple request

 

[chriswells78]

Look, don't turn this into a pissing contest. It's not bench racing. I am legitimately planning a motor build up and I have cash.

I can do the work, I just need some advice on what hardware to go with. I have almost $4k to buy and build a new truck. I bought my old truck back from the insurance company. So anything I don't use, I can sell for even more money in the budget. I will find a truck with either a bad motor, tranny or both, they are out there at the price I'm looking for, I just need to find one.

 

[reserved50]

um yea you werent the one that talked about these heads, Im just curious about whats his name preaching about ported heads, obviously wanting info about them is a no no I guess, strange...I wanted to know more about these talked about 1000$ solve all cylinder heads, I was looking for more info about them.

Who in their right mind is going to work over stock heads for 1000-1500$ to get what aftermarket heads might achieve for maybe less than that, theres no logic here at all is there, also the weight saving in aluminum is there but not the durability, they do sell cast iron aftermarket heads also. I would get out from the barn if it was me and call up summit instead of grinding up old door stops, unless you are in some sort of racing class which only allows stock heads. What I do find funny is all these cams being listed but no one wants to stick their neck out about piston to valve clearance, sure theres great cams out there, but what good are they when you end up grinding half your piston away and having to rebalance the entire assembley.

Hope its not too good to be true considering on another build the ported head build plans went out the window (on this board and another board also I think), if no info is posted about it I'll just stick to what works, not ported heads that give a large gain down low but nowhere near what aftermarket heads these days can achieve and still pull hard up top eventhough their torque curve drops of fast but still producing better numbers across the board

 

[chriswells78]

That was why I initially thought about, and still am thinking about the trick flow package.

For 2250@ Summit you get;

Trick Flow does the work, so you don't have to.
Why mix and match top-end components, when these Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 5.0L Track Heat engine kits can give you dyno-proven power without the guesswork? Built around Trick Flow's Twisted Wedge cylinder heads, these kits include a specially matched hydraulic roller cam that enhances the broad power and torque curves of the Twisted Wedge design. These cams feature a 221/225 degree duration at .050, .499/.510 in., with a 1.6 rocker ratio and a 112 degree lobe separation. Other components include roller rockers, a gasket kit, timing chain, pushrods, and silver valve covers, all perfectly matched for optimum power!

By the time I spend ~200 on a cam, 1000-1500 on a PP job, Buy all the associated gaskets, lubes and what not, I'm going to be into it about 2000 anyway. For another 250, I get an intake, valve covers, timing chain, studs, etc.

Then I could sell the stock intake and cover most of that extra 250. I just wonder if the TM headers will fit those heads?

 

[Dan Whitaker]

No a stock set will not bolt up to the Trick Flow's but, Rob at TM can put a flange on the headers that will bolt up to the Trick Flow heads.