Lets talk engine packages

[rocket 5979]

Rob, I appreciate the help you offer to a lot of people, and I'm sure that they do as well. I have built a few engines for myself, and I do not have countless #'s of drag engine builds under my belt. I have read and observed a lot, learning the basics enough to do a respectable job for street engines.

Many people make plans for engines etc, and get sidetracked or steered into certain parts that end up lessening a combination. The reason I suggested numbers of 250hp and 300hp(rwhp), is for that reason, lots of engines that could have made 300, end up with only 250 due to some minor mismatch of parts.QUOTE]



Sorry Don, I think I misunderstood you. The way I took it was that you were saying something more along the lines that those combo's could not make that much power. It seems you meant something more along the lines is that if they are not optimal that they are unlikely to make that much power. Just a little miscommunication I suppose.

Now that I understand what you meant I actually 100% agree. I see people putting together badazz engine combos only to slack on one thing and throw the whole combos potential off just because of one weak link. It gets even worse when they take a step back annd wonder why their combo didn't make the expected power.

 

[rocket 5979]

So Im trying to weed out any info in this, theres reference to a 1000$ head port job, and a cam listed, if no one has ever had such a combo or ever had their bench racer combo dynoed I understand, its probably a great one in the making, cant wait for those numbers when he gets it done .
I know you will probably say his flow numbers from the 1000$ porter mean nothing, but can you post some and port volume also? this is a simple request and Im sure its nothing to boil over for the curious in your humble presence. If anyone you thinks gives 100% false advise you seem to temper easliy and start name calling, troll etc, lol.


So like I asked, ignore teh above and I'd like to see some flow numbers and specs or I'll take it as a grain of salt like most great things on the internet, very simple request

You were not inquiring at all. Had you been merely asking a question, instead of being an ass then I would have actually bothered to give your post the time of day.

I was calling it as I see it when I said that your were posting like a troll. That looked more like a sound assessment than anything with temper. The bottom line is that you have a poor attitude in here and will only get flack from me until you truly start acting in a decent manner. The manner in which you speak seems very trollish to me. I don't have the patience to deal with people like you because all you continue to do is act in a sarcastic and childish manner.






I will reply to your last post talking about the project intending on using ported stock heads and then later switching to using TFTW heads. I can only assume you are referring to my friends project. First of all, it is my friends project and not mine. It is also my friends money and not mine. I try to serve as a guide to make sure he steers in the right direction but I am trying to keep out of the decision making process because I want this to be his project and not mine. The main reason beyond everything else that gave reason to swap from worked stocker heads to aftermarket ones was that he came into enough additional money where he could not only buy the aftermarket heads but also afford to have them worked a little bit too. The aftermarket heads also will match his long term plans for the future too. He ended up having more resources then he originally expected and is trying to go as balls out as possible while still retaining stock bottom end and N/A.

That is a totally different goal from this one which has a lower cap on the desired power. Being that it not only has a lower cap but also not as much money that will be able to be tied up in the project the worked P heads seem like the better option when weighing the difference between money invested, and highest USEABLE power. If the fella's can afford to get aftermarket heads AND get some work done to them then more power to them, but that route becomes one hell of allot more expensive than worked P heads.

People with worked P heads have gained around 30-35 rwhp peak and usually more under the curve when swapping to properly ported P heads on a supporting combo.

BTW, Reserved flow numbers are not the end all be all of a head combo being able to make good power/torque in the range desired. The key words being IN THE RANGE DESIRED. That is the same thing as a person saying they have a 3,800 lb car that dyno'd 550rwhp and is guaranteed to run high 10's. Just because you have a high dyno graph does not mean squat on the track allot of times. The only data that counts is the stuff collected on the track or on the trail. I could wipe my rear end with flow numbers and port volumes at timmes because they only give an idea (and sell product), but there is much more to it then that. I would say that thinking that flow numbers will directly equal a guarantee of more power and torque in the range needed is an example of bench racing so you be the judge of who is truly doing that. I will swap a 50 hp peak gain for 25 hp average gain under the curve any day in the vehicle that weighs as much as these do.

Just settle down and drop the attitude and you will get allot further in here instead of looking like you are trying to start a pissing contest all the time.

 

[Turdle]

Now see, this is why I was staying out of this discussion.

Let's all play nice now--ok?

 

[rocket 5979]

Now see, this is why I was staying out of this discussion.

Let's all play nice now--ok?

I am trying to Jon, I am trying to. It is just difficult to be patient with an individual that acts in the manner in which that kid did.

 

[chriswells78]

I emailed trick flow today, I got an interesting response. The tech stated that the stage 1 kit with 350hp/350tq had a power band of 2000-6000 and peaked off at around 5500. This would be too high for my desires so I emailed him back and asked about a different cam for the kit moving the power band down to the desired are. He came back with an interesting question.

Do you have any camshaft manufacturer preferences (Crane, Comp,etc...)?

 

[reserved50]

Last time...(P.M me next time), guy doesnt realize hes a hothead and thinks people are out to "troll" and get him, you need to chill and listen without crying wolf and the name calling, please listen, no one is out to get you dear sir and stop forcing your opinions about what others think of certain people on this board, people have just posted they are afraid of certain members (probably going psycho) . I hope you dont use the internet as a way to relieve built up stress from around your daily life, it really shows in your posts, trying to mask your extreme rage and hostility at these so called "trolls" or whoever disagrees as you did in the other board lol . You can PM me if you feel anymore rage inside you and cant keep it to yourself, like a ticking time bomb or exploding "rocket" lol, just cant stop! Anyways enough of your hostility. P.M me without destroying this post any further with your offensive posts, thank you


Soooooooo bottom line is save your 1500$ on stock junk and sell them to some Mustang folks for good coin and buy some off the shelf heads, hey if you can get the porting for maybe 500$ and they have the reputation behind them I would go for it also, most Explorers arent in nostalgic classes where they have to worry about what parts they can run, at the end of the day your lower hp modified stock heads arent worth close to what you have into them for anywhere near the power youd like for what you paid. . Anyone want to chime in they wish they should of picked a different head and why

 

[Turdle]

I like my Edelebrock Heads--they are of known quality-and flow with the best.
Plus, they have no "issues"

In any event, I do know one thing--Aluminum heads will be a bit more forgiving, allowing a bit more compression with pump gas.
Also, you'll shave a LOT of weight--I think 75 lbs
Those cast iron heads are HEAVY!! My Edlebrocks weigh 30lbs each

Now--for the kicker-
I recommend using studs for assembly---

 

[Dan Whitaker]

I emailed trick flow today, I got an interesting response. The tech stated that the stage 1 kit with 350hp/350tq had a power band of 2000-6000 and peaked off at around 5500. This would be too high for my desires so I emailed him back and asked about a different cam for the kit moving the power band down to the desired are. He came back with an interesting question.

The problem is everything Summit, Jegs & everyone else sells for a 5.0 is made for Mustangs.

We poor Mountaineer/Explorer owners are considered red headed step children by the aftermarket world

 

[chriswells78]

Well, when life hands you lemons, make lemonaid. Of all of these Mustang parts available, we are lucky enough that they fit. That is the point of this thread to see what fits and what will work. Yes most it is opinions, but this country was built on taking multiple opinions and coming to consensus. I'd like to see everyone's input that has experience in these matters. Pros and cons to each part.

 

[rocket 5979]

Last time...(P.M me next time), guy doesnt realize hes a hothead and thinks people are out to "troll" and get him, you need to chill and listen without crying wolf and the name calling, please listen, no one is out to get you dear sir and stop forcing your opinions about what others think of certain people on this board, people have just posted they are afraid of certain members (probably going psycho) . I hope you dont use the internet as a way to relieve built up stress from around your daily life, it really shows in your posts, trying to mask your extreme rage and hostility at these so called "trolls" or whoever disagrees as you did in the other board lol . You can PM me if you feel anymore rage inside you and cant keep it to yourself, like a ticking time bomb or exploding "rocket" lol, just cant stop! Anyways enough of your hostility. P.M me without destroying this post any further with your offensive posts, thank you


Soooooooo bottom line is save your 1500$ on stock junk and sell them to some Mustang folks for good coin and buy some off the shelf heads, hey if you can get the porting for maybe 500$ and they have the reputation behind them I would go for it also, most Explorers arent in nostalgic classes where they have to worry about what parts they can run, at the end of the day your lower hp modified stock heads arent worth close to what you have into them for anywhere near the power youd like for what you paid. . Anyone want to chime in they wish they should of picked a different head and why

I am not here to debate what you said. What I do not appreciate is HOW you said it. In your case the delivery was more a problem than the message itself. I doubt I will even waste taking the time to PM an unreasonable person like you. Keep hiding behind that internet connection bud.

 

[rocket 5979]

I like my Edelebrock Heads--they are of known quality-and flow with the best.
Plus, they have no "issues"

In any event, I do know one thing--Aluminum heads will be a bit more forgiving, allowing a bit more compression with pump gas.
Also, you'll shave a LOT of weight--I think 75 lbs
Those cast iron heads are HEAVY!! My Edlebrocks weigh 30lbs each

Now--for the kicker-
I recommend using studs for assembly---

+1

Studs are allot better than bolts in most cases. Easier to get them all in before having the heads on and you can also torque them to allot more accurate specs as well.

 

[CDW6212R]

Dan, it sounds like you have done a little searching, and discovered what most people don't realize. Yes the vast majority of parts are aimed at Mustangs. The problem is the rpm band, they are generally aimed at the 2000-6000 range, or higher. That's great for the Mustangs, most of them have clutches and bypass the low rpms. Buying kits or collections of parts can save money, but if you can't or shouldn't use a few of the parts due to rpm mismatch, you end up spending more after buying the correct rpm parts.

Example; If a person can spend enough to get a stroker for a base engine, then those same engine parts may be just about right for a shortblock, crate engine, or top end package. I just don't see that happening much when using a stock shortblock and limiting greatly the budget and final goal.

So have you by chance spoken to anyone about selecting special pistons to gain compression, and a camshaft to work with it? It takes time I know, the research and phone calls take more time than the actual work. Regards,

 

[rocket 5979]

Dan, we still have to keep that positive attitude about it all though. Even though it is a PITA to see all these mods offered for "other 5.0's" at least you can pull from the Mustang aftermarket for allot of things. The other good thing is that there are allot of people out there that are willing to do custom work on the 5.0's because of it. While getting a custom grind is not cheap, it is not a really hard thing to have done for these 5.0 engines. There are some cams ouut there that are close to being a decent match for this heavy of a vehicle but it usually does work out to be a slight compromise with the camshaft. I think "adapt and overcome" should be a motto for any Explorer owner looking to highly mod their vehicle.

 

[rocket 5979]

So have you by chance spoken to anyone about selecting special pistons to gain compression, and a camshaft to work with it? It takes time I know, the research and phone calls take more time than the actual work. Regards,

Don, whats is the dish on the stocker pistons? I am not 100% but I think it is 8cc. I would say between getting pistons with slightly smaller dish and decking the heads down a little bit would be the best way to gain compression. The reason for this is that leaves you with the best chance to maintain PTV clearance as well as not running into deck thickness issues because of hogging off too much material on the heads. Of course this only flies as a viable option assuming the intention of buying new pistons is already there.

 

[Turdle]

Also-
A camshaft can be installed "advanced" to bring the torque peak down--
as a rule of thumb, for each each degree advanced, you will move the peak down 100 rpm's.
I had mine advanced 4 degrees, which should take my 6300 RPM torque peak down to 5900 RPM's. I haven't verified this though-

 

[Turdle]

Don, whats is the dish on the stocker pistons? I am not 100% but I think it is 8cc. I would say between getting pistons with slightly smaller dish and decking the heads down a little bit would be the best way to gain compression. The reason for this is that leaves you with the best chance to maintain PTV clearance as well as not running into deck thickness issues because of hogging off too much material on the heads. Of course this only flies as a viable option assuming the intention of buying new pistons is already there.

The stock pistons are flat top-

I know this, because mine are 9cc dished, with 58cc chambers

 

[Dan Whitaker]

I filled out an on line cam request from Comp Cams and this is the cam they recomended:

PART NO. 35-510-8

01 INTAKE MASTER 3628F

02 EXHAUST MASTER 3630F

03 ENGINE FW XE258HR-12

04 GRIND NUMBER FW XE258HR-12

INT
EXH
05 HYDRAULIC Y/N YES 14 DUR @.050 208
216
INTAKE EXHAUST 15 LOBE LIFT .3340
.3410
06 VALVE ADJUSTMENT HYD HYD 16 ROCKER RATIO 1.60
1.60
07 MAX GROSS VALVE LIFT .533 .544

08 DUR @ .006 TAPPET LIFT 258 266 17 LOBE SEPARATI 112.0

18 ADVANCE 4

09 VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE 19 VALVE SPRINGS

@ .006 10 INT 19 58

11 EXH 67 18 DATE SETUP / /

12 THESE SPECS ARE FOR CAM(S) INSTALLED

@ 108.0 INTAKE CENTERLINE

It is a stock grind not a custom grind. Summit & Jegs don't list this series in their catalogs but can get them.

I have not started on pistons yet.

As far as headers go anything other than a GT40 (aluminum included) style head will reqiuire a custom exhaust flange from TM.

 

[CDW6212R]

Thanks Jon for adding the examples of your pistons, I know that you've got a good high compression example. The stock pistons in almost all of the 87+ 302 engines have virtually no piston dish, basically just the valve relief volume.

I've alluded to lighter pistons a couple of times because stock pistons are very heavy, as are many replacement types. You have to dig deeper to find the really light pistons that are made. They will cost more, but since replacements can run $250 or more, why not spend the $400 or whatever it takes to gain the better pistons. That improvement in performance is worth the money, it's like a porting job on heads, but less expensive.

Dan, I like the sounds of that cam(208/216), that is the kind of @0.050 I'd rather see for a NA 0-5000rpm 302. The only question though is how much compression will it be compatible with. If they tell you to keep it below 9.5:1 then don't go over, the engine will want higher octane gas, or for the timing to be retarded.

Most low cost aftermarket heads will have the standard exhaust port flange, like the GT40's. The more expensive heads usually all have different port bolt patterns. That's why Im trying to select one now, to build headers for it, and upgrade heads later to include the same flanges. Regards,

 

[rocket 5979]

The stock pistons are flat top-

I know this, because mine are 9cc dished, with 58cc chambers

I may be brain farting but I could have sworn that Jim's pistons had a slight dish in them when looking at them after taking his heads off. I got those pictures around on here somewhere so I will have to take another look at that. Maybe I am getting Jims stock shortblock and mine mixed up. They are obviously very different (4.6 & 5.0) but that is the only thing that I can think of that would have stuck in my head. Oh well, it happens.

 

[Turdle]

Well, I still have my old shortblock in my garage--I assure you they are flat top, and come all the way up