Lifter Noise

[natenkiki2004]

So, yesterday I got done replacing the rocker arms and pushrods along with a few gaskets and other things. Ended up rotating the rocker arm shafts as well since they were worn. My Explorer had spent some time with not much maintenance as far as oil changes. I was hoping the rocker arms & pushrods would fix the tick but... no such luck. The lifters are noisy but only when cold. After the engine warms up, they're dead silent.

For those more experienced in lifters, is this a leakdown issue and them being starved for oil when cold or is it more of a flow issue, not getting enough oil due to gunk buildup?

I probably won't remove the heads until I blow a head gasket or crack one so the lifters are not coming out. Has anyone had luck with Seafoam or some other cleaner in the oil?

I've got Mobil 1 full synthetic high mileage 5w-30 in it now (since it was on sale) and I'm somewhat hoping the higher additive/cleaning pack might do some good... maybe?

 

[acschilling]

How long does it take for the tick to go away full warm?

 

[Anime]

If the shafts were worn, they should be replaced, since "rotating" them doesn't do anything, the area that's worn is still worn and there will be play in the rocker when it moves and you'll get both noise and additional wear. If the wear was significant and the cause of the noise, you won't get rid of it until you replace the shafts.

Did you inspect the lifters to see if any of them were collapsed or seized? If all of the lifters looked good and none were collapsed, stuck, or otherwise damaged, then you probably won't get any different result even with new lifters in there.

It takes a while in any engine for oil pressure to build up and for oil to flow throughout the engine and get into the small areas, but on the OHV 4.0L it takes even longer for oil to get were it really needs to go, like the wear areas between the pushrods and the lifters. There's a lot of oil splashing around rather than precise, well designed parts and passages that channel oil where it needs to go.

The BEST thing you can do is ALWAYS use 5W-30 oil (or a similar viscosity 0W-30), and never use thick oil.

I would NOT suggest EVER using anything in the oil, whether it's Seafoam or anything else.

If you want to 'clean' the parts and passages then a good quality oil is what you want. It can take a few oil changes, but with a good filter, it can work. Mobil 1 is pretty good, the Pennzoil Ultra / Pennzoil Platinum seems to be really good cleaning oil if you want to try that.

You may also try different brands and see if anything works to quiet the tick. There's plenty of vehicles where one brand of oil causes some noticable noise, and with another brand (in the same viscosity) the tick just isn't there.

 

[natenkiki2004]

If the shafts were worn, they should be replaced, since "rotating" them doesn't do anything, the area that's worn is still worn and there will be play in the rocker when it moves and you'll get both noise and additional wear. If the wear was significant and the cause of the noise, you won't get rid of it until you replace the shafts.

Take a look at these images:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/464376/vehicles/1991 Explorer/Pictures/Valvetrain/P1020909.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/464376/vehicles/1991 Explorer/Pictures/Valvetrain/P1020910.JPG

As the shafts sit, the rockers ride on the whole diameter of the shaft but due to the lifters & valve springs, there's really only pressure on the bottom side. Lack of lubrication means that this is a wear point. Flipping the shafts over isn't ideal but it's a cost-effective fix. Early on when I got the Explorer, I had bought rocker arms. I got them before I knew you could buy assembled shafts from Delta. I didn't want to waste the parts I bought. Plus, it was a thought in the back of my mind that "renewing" the valvetrain might not fix the issue.

Did you inspect the lifters to see if any of them were collapsed or seized? If all of the lifters looked good and none were collapsed, stuck, or otherwise damaged, then you probably won't get any different result even with new lifters in there.

I did go over the lifters. 3 were missing or had broken cones. I did a fair amount of research on that part and it looks like those are just installation aids for the most part. Like the end caps on injectors. They're just there for protection/ease of installation. Anyway, they all slid in their bores easily and there was tension on both shafts as I torqued down the bolts. I don't know for sure if any were collapsed, I don't think they were but it's kind of hard to tell with them in the engine.

It takes a while in any engine for oil pressure to build up and for oil to flow throughout the engine and get into the small areas, but on the OHV 4.0L it takes even longer for oil to get were it really needs to go, like the wear areas between the pushrods and the lifters. There's a lot of oil splashing around rather than precise, well designed parts and passages that channel oil where it needs to go.

The BEST thing you can do is ALWAYS use 5W-30 oil (or a similar viscosity 0W-30), and never use thick oil.

I would NOT suggest EVER using anything in the oil, whether it's Seafoam or anything else.

If you want to 'clean' the parts and passages then a good quality oil is what you want. It can take a few oil changes, but with a good filter, it can work. Mobil 1 is pretty good, the Pennzoil Ultra / Pennzoil Platinum seems to be really good cleaning oil if you want to try that.

You may also try different brands and see if anything works to quiet the tick. There's plenty of vehicles where one brand of oil causes some noticable noise, and with another brand (in the same viscosity) the tick just isn't there.

I'm thinking that it is a flow/pressure problem up top. I know I have good oil pressure, I used a mechanical gauge to see. I think there's just varnish or crud caught in the lifters or around that area.

The engine is quiet when started but about 10-15 seconds in, when cold, it starts chattering and then starts to quiet down when halfway warm then totally quiet when warmed up.

To me, that says that the oil left in the lifters from the previous drive is still there but when that runs out or the cold oil coming up can't flow properly, they start getting noisy. Then when it warms up, the oil flows easily.

I've heard good things about the Pennzoil additive packs and will probably try that. I only got the Mobil 1 due to the coupon they're running. In my usage, the engine has only seen Valvoline MaxLife High Mileage 10w-30 (summer and feeble attempt at slowing oil leaks) and one jug of the Walmart SuperTech 5w-30, more as a flush when putting the engine back together. I used to use the Motorcraft FL-1A filters but bought a Wix 1515 for the current change.

 

[Anime]

Hard to tell from the images whether the wear on the shafts is actually significant or just a polishing of the surface. If you scrape across it and there's no change in depth from the darker shaft surface to the silver polished part, it's not significant wear and flipping the shafts over is fine. I would not suggest using Delta parts for anything, stick with OE Ford if you can get it. The Ford shafts and pushrods are still available and pretty common.

The plastic cones aren't just for protection or installation, they seem to be a "band-aid" fix to direct oil flow between the pushrod and the lifter, and keep oil from just sloshing into the lifter from the top. The engine will run without them, of course, but the oiling just won't be optimal. This may also contribute to the tick you're hearing.

Broken plastic cones are also bad since they will just continue to fall apart in the engine and those parts can get stuck in oil passages. It may even be that's what you have now, plastic parts floating around in the engine and impeding oil flow at times or getting into mechanical parts.

 

[natenkiki2004]

The wear is barely noticeable when running your fingernail across. They should be fine being flipped over. In an ideal world, I would have replaced them as well but I already had some parts and I'm sure using OEM parts would have been more expensive. While I try to treat this vehicle right, cost is a factor and to be honest, I had to put all these parts on Paypal Credit since the gasket repair needed to be done suddenly.

I could see the cones helping oil but to be honest, none of the pushrods had wear at the lifter end, they were all perfect. The wear was mostly at the rocker end and really only 1 pushrod looked real bad.

When I pulled the engine to get after the oil pan leak, I pulled the pump pickup tube (since I had a gasket for it) and back-flushed it. One of the lifter cones came out in pieces. The other 2 were broken off but still together in a ring shape, dangling around the pushrod. I'm pretty sure all the pieces are accounted for. I had an oil pressure gauge installed for probably 2 weeks and never saw deviation or dropouts, it was very consistent.

For what it's worth, here's a picture of the cone missing:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/464376/vehicles/1991 Explorer/Pictures/Valvetrain/P1020920.JPG


I'm still hoping that since the tick is only when cold that maybe some higher-end synthetic oil with decent additive packs will help clean it out. If not... it'll have to be that way until a head cracks or leaks. Passenger side is still original with 230,000 miles. Driver's was replaced with a used 93TM head by the previous owner. There will probably be a day where I buy new heads and probably just buy new lifters and valvetrain parts again.

 

[Anime]

The 90TM head is probably already cracked, but on the underside where you can't see it. Very common for them to develop cracks between the pistons, just from age. You can probably run it until there is an issue though, I'm sure there are lots of Explorers on the road with cracked heads and lots of other problems, but it just doesn't affect drivability enough to do anything about it.

The 93TM heads are slightly different from the 90TM heads (very slightly, but they are a little beefier and probably flow better), so you may want to just get a matching 93TM head. Really it's just too bad the previous owner didn't spring for the matching heads for both sides.

Aftermarket heads are all an even beefier version of the 93TM design and flow even better.

Budget repairs are usually ok, and I'd agree the shafts were probably ok to flip rather than shell out for new parts if new heads might be in the future.

I'd probably look into finding some plastic cups for the lifters though, either on the forum or if you find some aftermarket lifters for not a lot of money, get 'em and use the caps for now, and keep them for spare parts like the internal springs for when you pull the heads so you can take apart and refurb the factory lifters.

Keep the oil changed, keep the RPMs under ~4K, and it will probably last 300K and beyond.

 

[vq5speed]

An idea I thought of if your willing to spend some time. When you have the manifolds off and don't want to pull the heads to get the lifters out for cleaning is to clean them where they sit. Spray each lifter with Chemtool b12 use one of the pushrods to plunge the lifter spray and plunge spray plunge several times to each lifter then air blast them. Then when your done change the oil. You'll never really get them 100% clean even if remove them. I read they have a hollow cavity in them that traps debris that can never really be cleaned out 100%. But I think spraying and plunging them several times then air blast them can clean them almost as good as cleaning out of the engine.

 

[xplorernewb]

mine has done this for the last 10 years... hope someone figures it out cause im not going to

 

[SuperKirby]

My Grandpa always drove first and second gen rangers as long as I can remember. And for an old guy he was hard on them. The lifters always had a tick. I remember the one day we were talking about it and he said the first time he had one start making noise he chased it until he eventually sold that Ranger and bought a different one. When the lifters in that one started ticking he said he finally decided that as long as they were ticking he knew they were working. The last ranger he bought before he died had lifter and valvetrain noise ever since I can remember. Last I heard it had somewhere around 320,000 miles, had been rolled on 3 separate occasions, and still runs great.

 

[natenkiki2004]

mine has done this for the last 10 years... hope someone figures it out cause im not going to

Oh I know how to fix it, I'm just not going down that road right now. To do it right, in my situation, would pretty much mean new heads, new lifters, gasket set all the way around... It's not worth it for me right now. Maybe if I blow a head gasket or crack a head but until that happens, I don't have that much spare cash to spend on this ride.

I'll still cross my fingers and hope a nice oil will help but if it doesn't, it's going to tick until it won't tick anymore

 

[2stroke]

a 10w-40 or 15w-40 will quiet it down. How much depends on how bad it is now. I assume you do, but definitely go with a motorcraft or other high quality oil filter. The orange cans of death (fram), and some other cheap crap can cause problems. They might filter ok, but they don't flow right.

 

[xplorernewb]

ive actually noticed that it ticks less if i add an extra cup of oil after its full.... could that be the oil filter just holding too much oil or something and not giving an accurate measurement? im using the small black filter.. had a big orange one, made no difference

 

[natenkiki2004]

I was using the Motorcraft FL-1A for about a year and a half, figured I'd try a NAPA Gold (Wix) 1515 with the Mobil 1 5w30 HM Syn I just put in. No audible difference to the SuperTech 5w30 and FL-1A I had in there before for 800 miles.

I typically fill up to the top of the range and always fill the filter with as much oil as I can before spinning it on.

I'll probably run the current oil through the summer & the next winter. I've been changing the oil way too quickly due to various repairs. This beast doesn't see a ton of mileage so, I'll probably just stick with once-a-year changes.

A thicker oil might quiet it down, if leakdown is an issue. I don't really think that's the case with mine, just from the way it behaves. Personally, I'll just stick with the 5w30 Synthetic. Should be a good balance for the summer temps and the winters around here.

 

[2stroke]

ive actually noticed that it ticks less if i add an extra cup of oil after its full.... could that be the oil filter just holding too much oil or something and not giving an accurate measurement? im using the small black filter.. had a big orange one, made no difference

How are you determining "full?" If you are going by the dipstick, you may be off. These engines take 5 quarts, although a little over filled won't cause problems. I always fill to true capacity, then check oil. On my 94 x, the oil dipstick was reasonably accurate. On my 94 b4000 true full is 1/4" over the "full" mark. I just took a scribe and put a true full mark on mine.

 

[natenkiki2004]

For me, I go by the dipstick and usually have some left after filling the oil filter and getting to the full mark on the stick. After running a few trips, I check it again and usually top it off but STILL have some left. I'll have to check how much but it's probably 1/3 or less of a quart.

 

[xplorernewb]

ah makes sense. ive just been going by the dipstick