Lockers??????WHAT

[GJarrett]

I was referring to very slick road such as ice, hard pack snow, rain after long dry spells, etc. I have driven lockers on all those conditions in Red River NM, Colorado, and also TN during a bad winter. You are correct in that they can be driven on rain as long as the driver is aware what they are doing and compensates for it. An EZ-Locker, for example, will stay disengaged until you hit it pretty hard in a turn on a rainslick road.

I readily admit I have no experience with a LockRight No-Slip, though I do have experience with others. I played with a Detroit in New Hampshire and Vermont during the winter of '94 in sub-zero weather and could just barely keep the vehicle on the road. I knew what I was doing, took care, and still had a heckuva white-knuckle time. It stayed locked in those conditions. A LockRight No-Slip may have performed differently, or I may need to be a better driver. I am still learning.

The point I wanted to make is that you need to know what you are trading off and sacrificing on the road in order to gain offroad performance if you do not go for a disengageable locker (ARB or OxLocker).

I have a lifted vehicle with no swaybars. There are driving techniques I adhere to in it that I would not otherwise be concerned with. It is the same principle as if you decided to run lockers on a street vehicle. You have to be cognizant of what you are doing, and I think we agree on that issue. I am not saying you cannot do it, just that you need to be aware of what you are doing.

I hope that made more sense than my first post.

PS / I know a Jeep'n gal in Maine who did just exactly what I described with a locker last winter and slammed her right side into oncoming traffic, with her lockers loosing her rear end.

I only want people to know what they are driving should they make the choice that is their right to do so.

[Edited by GJarrett on 10-17-2000 at 10:25 PM]

 

[HIX]

I wasn't meaning to say that you don't know what you are talking about....just wanted to say that it can easily be used as a daily driver. My tires didn't even wear noticably more than usual in the 13k that I put on them w/ the locker.

Also, not all of us have the 600 for the ARB locker + the 199 for compressor + 400 for install. Putting it in at the same time as the gears might get you a small discount. Not much though. Plus once it is installed it is not easy to bring it back to stock.

Plus look at how many people blew the ARB on the trip to Moab. I don't know how many people had mechanical lockers, maybe just me, but as far as I know nobody blew one.

The No-Slip(and most likely the Detriot Gearless) can be put in in less than 2 hrs by anyone w/ a set of tools. If someone thinks it is to squirrely in the winter they can just take it out and replace the open diff.

 

[rpenner54]

Re: LOCKERS ARE OK IN THE RAIN!

Originally posted by HIX
I can say from experience that the LockRight No-Slip works good in the rain and even regular snow. I never tried it in the ice. I had the No-slip in my explorer before I got rid of it and I could take corners w/ ease in the rain. I never had the rear end break loose on anything but sharp turns under full throttle(and thats when I wanted it too).

I wonder how many of the people who are giving you advice actually have a locker...or are they just passing on second hand info?

Of course it takes a little getting used to and it may be a little harder to drive than an open diff! But like anything else once you adjust to it you think the open differs drive weird.

Hix did you ever put anything up front in your Explorer? I think if I put anything up front I would want to go the cheaper route this time. The ARB in my opinion is a waste of money to put in the front end on the Explorer (Unless you have a solid front end). But if I could get away with putting in a cheaper one that would work for me. I figure I could afford to put a $200-300 locker up front without to many worries.

 

[GJarrett]

You know HIX, that's a great idea I never thought of. Just remove it for the winter. You're right, an ARB is $$$$. I've heard that the Powertrax NoSlip is very streetable and an easy install. I may have a locker next year at Moab after all.

Yeah, we blew a lot of ARB spider gears in Moab. ARB won't even sell those units now and is forcing people like Ray Lobato to wait until they release the beefed up model later on this year. I would assume they will be very strong this time around.

Concerning the driving, I was driving vehicles that were not mine, so I was not as familiar as I would be with my own. I have yet to own a locked vehicle. I was able to do okay usually as long as I was careful, like you said. But that time up in the northeast with the full Detroit was a real pain in the rumpus and you know how sometimes a single experience can really ingrain an opinion into you? I am always open to learn something new though. Possibly I need to rethink my opinion and not just base it on a bad week with a single model of locker. Well, not even a whole week. I gave it back to my friend and went out and rented a front wheel drive Mercury Sable that drove a lot better in those conditions.

Ryan, Gofast has a plain old "lunchbox" style EZ-Locker in his front, and he has done great with it. I think that would be the way to go also.





[Edited by GJarrett on 10-18-2000 at 10:28 AM]

 

[mattadams]

Originally posted by HIX
Plus look at how many people blew the ARB on the trip to Moab. I don't know how many people had mechanical lockers, maybe just me, but as far as I know nobody blew one.

I've been keeping quiet on this for a while... as far as I'm concerned, I'm pissed with ARB. I'm pissed with the quality of their product, and I'm pissed with the way they run there business. The way I see it, if 7-10 people take ARB lockers off-road in Moab (like happened) and 5-6 of those people break there lockers, without even do anything I would consider "extreme", then there is something wrong with the product. I hear they are re-designing it but I can't afford to buy a new, better version. I now can say I official hate the idea of a locker that is activated by air... especially since now I have an air leak SOMEWHERE but for the life of me can't find it (and yes I've tried to find it with soapy water), and as a result when I have my locker turned on the compressor runs, stops for about 30 seconds, then runs for the 30 seconds. I think their compressors are not the best in quality, I think the lines are extremely succeptable to leaks that are hard if not impossible to locate. That's why I've been working on getting oxtrax (the only other company that makes an off/on locker... except theres is cable driven rather then air driven) to design a locker for the Ford Explorers, old and new. To me, a 6-guage wire is going to be a heck of a lot harder to ruin then a thin air line with little protection from tears. I know of a few people there with mechanical lockers that had no problems.

Much like other products, I usually assume they are good if other people say they are good. When we have an experience like Moab (which was to date the most expensive repair I have done on ANY vehicle) it makes me think extremely negatively about the company. The fact I am still fighting ARB about the warranty is a bunch of bull!%*t. So if ARB comes out with this great new design that everyone seems to be talking about thats great. PROVE TO ME IT WORKS, AND WORKS WELL, AND WORKS RELIABLY, OTHERWISE I'LL CONTINUE THINKING ITS A CRAPPY PRODUCT. So far to date just about everything with my ARB has gone wrong. The compressor works about half as good as it did in the beginning at airing up tires, etc., the air leak I mentioned earlier, blown spider gears which took out the entire locker as well as my ring and pinion in the rear differential, etc. If the fix is to get a better diff cover which holds more fluid, I'd do it, but I have no reason to believe as of yet that that would fix the problem. If I was to put another locker in, it certainly wouldn't be an ARB. I'd put a Detroit in the rear and leaf the front open (it's been open since I bought it and I've done stuff people with lockers up front can't do, so I have no reason to spend the money to get a new locker up front).

I know Rick has good connections with ARB and so forth, and I seriously don't mean to rip on a product if other people have good connections with them, so maybe he can pass on my disgust, but so far I've talked to about the whole damn company and I'm getting no where, and the product keeps breaking with no assurance that the next product will be better...

OK. steeping off my soapbox

 

[GJarrett]

Gee whiz Matt, don't sugar-coat it, tell us what you really think.

Say, have you been contacting OxTrax too? I got an email back from them but it was one of those "we may get around to it next year" type of correspondences. Can we get some more of us to bug them and maybe they'll see there would be a good potential market out there? Plus, with all the J**pers out there that install our 8.8's in their vehicles, I would think there really is a good market out there for OxTrax.

 

[mattadams]

hey if I think a product is great, I tell people its a great product. If I think its a crappy product, I tell people I think it's a crappy product.

EXAMPLES:
Good products
-Pioneer Speakers
-PIAA lights
-Optima Batteries
-Mickey Thompson Tires
-Precision Gear gears
-Warn Winches

Bad products
-ARB Lockers
-ARB Compressors
-Hella lights
-Firestone tires
-Warn hubs (make a kit that LOCKS dangit!)
-Ford OEM speakers
-Ford OEM Battery cables
-Ford headlight designs
-Dupli-color truck bed liner

And the list goes on and on and on. Just to prove I'm not partial to brands (like I said, I love my Warn winch but can't stand my warn hubs! The hubs are decent but I have to tighten them down once a month and thats a pain in the ass!)

By the way, yes I have been in contact with Oxtrax... they didn't even know what axles the explorers had so I doubt they'll be making them anytime soon, but I have strongle encouraged them to place us on their list of lockers to make.

 

[GJarrett]

I told them what axles we had and that not only were there a lot of Explorer owners that would be interested, but also a lot of J**pers who put our axles in their rigs. I threw the Jeep reference in so they would pay a little attention and not just blow us off.

 

[mattadams]

not a bad idea... it looks to me like they make a good product... I love the idea of it being cable-driven. Hypothetically then, the only way you could make it not activate/deactivate is if the cable was severed (which lets face it, would never happen unless it was placed right next to the fan or something and even then with the thickness of the wire I think it'd damage the fan quite a bit before severing the wire). If routed properly, that wire would never be touched, wouldn't be succeptable from a leak from a zip-tie being too tight or a seal having a slight, slight crack in it, or because of too much pressure, etc. It also makes it so the locker would work the same at high altitude as at low altitude. It wouldn't matter if your compressor blew, because that cable would still work. If power was cut off to the vehicle for whatever reason, the locker hypothetically would still work, as the cable would still eb activated. Now why you would need a locker when you have no power I don't know, but it would work dangit! It would also great improve the troubleshooting. None of this "well ok is it the fuse... nope. Is it the wire from the battery to the compressor? nope. is it the switch? nope. is it the wire from the switch to the compressor? nope. is it the air line from the compressor to the locker? nope. is it the seal ont he air lines? nope. And so on and so forth.

 

[HIX]

I think that the No-slip comes for the dana front. The problem w/ the front is putting it in. I can't see any way that it would be easy. I personally will never put a locker in the front of a truck. I just think that you don't need it unless you are going for the 38 inch tires w/ 8 inches of lift, cut out fender flairs, body lift, and still dragging across the rocks type of wheeling. Besides, I think it's cooler to be slightly under equiped and conquer the same obstacle.

 

[Scott B.]

Originally posted by HIX
Besides, I think it's cooler to be slightly under equiped and conquer the same obstacle.

I wouldn't use the word cooler, rather it is much more fun to have to work your truck over an obstacle. The more built your truck is, the less finesse you need. I've seen people who could drive really well, then build their trucks - guess what? They forget how to drive.

Originally posted by mattadams
I've been keeping quiet on this for a while... as far as I'm concerned, I'm pissed with ARB. ...

Matt,

I'd have to say I agree with you. I've heard of many reliablility problems with the ARB. I believe the locker is undergoing its second re-design, having been originally redesigned several years ago.

I have been happy with my air compressor, though. It has aired up plenty of tires (3 in Colorado!) and has not given me any problems.

As for your leaks, you could replace your air lines with steel braided line, using the 2-piece compression fittings. These won't leak, and will be fairly abrasion-resistant on the trail. Also, your 0-ring (in the differential) could be leaking. Charge up your ARB, lock it, and listen to your axle breather. If you hear air coming out, you need to replace the o-rings.

For my truck, which is a daily driver, I'm installing gear-driven limited slip units in the front and rear. Considering all the places I've been with only the factory limited slip in the rear, these units should be fine. If not, I can always swap in a Detroit in the rear.

You need to carefully weigh what you need vs. what is cool to have. Once I get these units installed, I'll report back as to how they work.

[Edited by Scott Bosso on 10-18-2000 at 11:25 AM]

 

[rpenner54]

I have to agree with Matt on this one. Although I am not as flamboant about hating ARB I do agree that their product was not good. After the first time I used my ARB HARD all day in snowbashing. I got back off the trail and the damn thing was squirting oil all over the place through the vent line and through the air line. Well this is normal according to EVERY shop I have talked to so far. The oil just gets to hot and bubbles over I guess. Now to me thats a logical Explanation however I wish I would have been told about this. Cause I always have oil all over the rear end of the truck and its all under the compresor. Granted everyone's ARB does not do this it is a trait of them specially when used hard and hot. For instance out in Moab when I was playing in the sand and running it hard it went out the vent line again. The odd thing is it doesn't take much to re-fill the diff so I don't know whats up with that.

I honestly have to agree with Matt on lots of his goods and bads of products. I HATE buying a product that costs a decent amount of money just to have to spend MORE money to get the damn thing to work the way it should. Thats just not cool in my eyes.

 

[Scott B.]

Ryan,

The o-rings on the air pressure collar are leaking. Normally, these will not fail on their own. What usually happens is they are nicked or damaged during installation.

 

[mattadams]

Originally posted by rpenner54
I honestly have to agree with Matt on lots of his goods and bads of products. I HATE buying a product that costs a decent amount of money just to have to spend MORE money to get the damn thing to work the way it should. Thats just not cool in my eyes.

I always love to hear when people actually agree with what I say, LOL. While I think there are many good products out there I also think there are many bad products. And if everyone goes around saying "ARB's are great!" without actually using the locker like a locker, because they heard it from someone else that it was great, then people will continue to spend money on products that are completely defective (which IMHO, the ARB is), and will continue to be upset when these products cost big bucks to replace. By the way, for those that are new, I'll explain my warranty situation with ARB.

In May (May 5th-7th, Moab2000) I basically blew my locker. It wouldn't deactivate. Not a big deal I thought so I went ahead and drove it home, SLOWLY (took me about 9 hours to get from Moab to Denver, which is usually a much shorter drive). Anyways, the spider gears had blown (for those that don't know, the spider gears are what activate/deactivate the locker and are, appropriately named, 8-teeth gears. You have two of them. One was reduced to 5 teeth, the other 6 teeth. Well since I didn't know this was the problem, the portions that were ripped off of the main gear were floating around in the diff and taking good-sized chunks out of my ring and pinion (I wish I had taken some pictures after opening it up). I was told it would be covered under warranty, but they'd have to pull it out, have me ship the defective product to them, they would examine it and send a new locker to be installed. I said I didn't have that kind of time, it was my only vehicle, so instead I asked if I could purchase another one, install that after taking out the bad one, and return the bad one and get a refund, they say sure no problem. so I ship it back to them, long story short, nearly 6 months later and I'm still fighting them for my refund (which is $650 so I'm not about to lie down on this one).

 

[rpenner54]

Originally posted by Scott Bosso
Ryan,

The o-rings on the air pressure collar are leaking. Normally, these will not fail on their own. What usually happens is they are nicked or damaged during installation.

Yep thats what ARB told me. But the shop that installed it said that it was normal and basically told me to F$%k off and that I didn't know what I was talking about. So I just live with it because in order to get that fixed I have to pull the whole thing back out of there $$$ to fix it. I have 4 O-Rings sitting around somewhere just for that fix too. This is another thing that bothered me about the design is that you have this $600 locker that can't be operated correctly unless this $0.05 o-ring is installed correctly. But don't EVEN get me started on the shop that installed my gears. I now use a differn't shop and am pleased with them. They looked it over and fixed the pinion nut that had almost come off and stuff like that. That was due to a poor install also. Ah well I get to pissed if I start thinking about all that crap so I am not gonna. LOL I am gonna put my head under the covers till it goes away again.

 

[RFR2212]

Hum, the lock-rights are starting to look real nice right about now....

 

[Scott B.]

Ryan,

If you ever do replace the $0.05 o-rings, they should be lubricated before installation.

The stuff to use is what big trucks use on the o-rings in their transmissions. I have a tube at home - if you're interested, I'll get the product name.

 

[rpenner54]

Yep I knew that. I just don't have the ambition to fix this problem anymore. I have a daily driver now so the Explorer doesn't get so many miles wracked up on it so I can spend more time letting it sit instead of abusing it. I plan on doing custom axles under this puppy someday so putting money into them now has to be in the cheap range for me to want to do it. I probably will be going with a Ford 10.25 bolt in the rear and a Dana 44 R/C up front with 4.88's or better and Detroits at both ends. That is all based on if I can get that gearset and locker combo for the both of them and if I have a large chunk of change find its way into my pocket also. But I would be the only Full-Width Explorer out there I am sure if I did this.

 

[Scott B.]

Originally posted by RFR2212
Hum, the lock-rights are starting to look real nice right about now....

The problem with Lock-Rites and EZLockers is they use the factory open carrier. The factory carrier is not designed to handle the additional loads placed on it by the lockers. Hence, the carriers eventually fail.

 

[HIX]

You can buy the optional heavy duty carrier for 50 dollars w/ the No-Slip.