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military rules for non-military

Stephen

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Like this:

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press."

Thats just not true. Does the army roll up everytime a politician tries to kill a story or silence a reporter from releasing a story until the proper time? No. Reporters have DIED to promote freedom of the press. Reporters have been lynched right here in this country because they were trying to report news that was unpopular. Thats not to say the media is what it should be or that it is perfectly unbiased all the time, but it is an integral part of our society and democracy as a system and it deserves credit for what it does.

"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech."

This is also not true. Again, does the army roll up everytime the government tries to ban a book? No. Again, writers and poets have DIED for the freedom of speech. People have been blackballed and their lives ruined.

"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate."

Again, not true. Kids get gassed, spit on, stepped on, arrested, expelled, and yes again killed promoting the freedom to protest. Does the army roll up everytime the government denies someone's right to protest? Again, no.

You can trace back the fighting and winning of America's wars and credit that to the military, but credit has to go where its due. The people out there fighting tooth and nail to beat back the government and maintain our constitutional rights are the ones that make sure we have them, not the government.

I just get tired of the rhetoric that unless you pick up a gun and shoot at people 5,000 miles away you're not "fighting for America". We all fight for America every day. The fight for America's future in the 21st century isn't going to be won with a gun.
 


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BigDakota

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JGAMBLE said:
I was trying to stay out of this but.... freedom of speech does not mean there are no repercussions for your actions. Go cuss out your boss and claim freedom of speech.. or for that matter try burning the american flag in front of me :thumbdwn:

:chug: :chug:
Stephen has some valid points
I am getting mad now..thinking about all those who claim citizenship in this Country, they can use infinite resources to better themselves, "if they want to" and many of the USA people will bitch,moan and groan, burn and spit on the Flag and the USA. Hey..There is a time and a place to be a "rebel". I know I can be a rebellious bugger, BUT, I will stand up and fight for the country I live in..I will whine a little, but I will "FIGHT" for my right to freedom. There is a generation that is lost and ignorant to the sacrifices many of our men and women have made to make their sorry,lazy,whining butts free enough to "Be Sorry, Lazy and Whiny!!"
Alot of things have to be done in moderation..Patriotism has to be 100 percent or else we will fail!
I guess if a person cannot support "whether we like it or not sometimes" the country you live in...It is time to move out!!!

:usa: ;) :usa:
 








JGAMBLE

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ok, yes people besides soldiers have died fighting for freedom of speech, freedom of press and the right to demonstrate. The only reason that anyone even has the possibility to do this is because the military keeps the borders safe so we can practice democracy. Get rid of the military and see how Osama or Saddam let you practice these right.

:chug: :chug:
 




Stephen

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The military keeps the borders safe. LOL. Come on, thats rediculous. Its 2005, we don't have the military patroling our borders. This isn't 1824 anymore.

I never once said get rid of the military, I just said there are other aspects to the system of our society. Get rid of the press and this country would look a lot like Iraq did 3 years ago real quick I promise you. American politicians want what all politicians want, power. When they get power they want more. Its the checks and balances of our society that keep everything going along smoothly. The military is no more vital to the future of our country as the press is.

Saddam had a military too and he murdered and tortured his own people. Why? Because he didnt have a free press or other failsafes to keep him accountable.

Big Dakota said:
Stephen has some valid points
I am getting mad now..thinking about all those who claim citizenship in this Country, they can use infinite resources to better themselves, "if they want to" and many of the USA people will bitch,moan and groan, burn and spit on the Flag and the USA....

Apparently not, because you totally missed my point. People are SUPPOSED to do those things. Its a yin and a yang kind of thing, balance is everywhere in life. When our government was designed the balance was written in from the very beginning. Without people "bitching, moaning, groaning, burning and spitting on the flag" the other spectrum of the political landscape would run right over and dominate the government. You may like conservative ideals but you wouldn't like that. Nor would people who like liberal ideals like it if the liberal side of the spectrum rolled over and dominated the government.

In short the point is our society cannot exist without those that question how the government is run and speak their minds. These people are patriots too and whether you think so or not, they're all fighting for America.

I guess if a person cannot support "whether we like it or not sometimes" the country you live in...It is time to move out!!!

You just dont get it...
 




S

shaggsta

Stephen, I guess it's my turn to agree with you.

First off, Yes I do realise that there a lot of people out there who will complain about the country they live in, and every aspect of their lives, just for the sake of complaining. And YES I do find people like that annoying, but they have every right to feel the way they do. (But I have every right to avoid, dismiss and if I wanted to complain about them). The right of Free Speech exists, like all other frredoms, for us to use but not allow us to infring on the rights of others. That's why you DO NOT have the right to tell off your neighbor, stage a racist demonstration, or that the right to bear arms does not exist on an airplane.

But there are many people who's criticisms are constructive. They see problems in our society/world and seek to fix them. Wether they are justified or not, these people are always seeking to improve, or stop deterioration of our society and have a vastly important role. Like Stephen said, it is the right to be able to criticise our government/society that separates us from the dictatorships and may be one of the greatest freedoms we have because it allows US - the people to ensure that none of our other freedoms are revoked.
 




BigDakota

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The point I am trying to make is this" Support your country in time of need...do not bicker..and stand together!!!..maybe thats 3 points..who cares....Words will not stop the criminals and terrorists bullets and bombs in our country..."Ying and Yang.thats Pacific Rim jargon"... ((To give and to take away"USA version")) Yes..the facts of our becoming a great nation are in our history of revolution.......!!

Disagreements have been recorded as far back as history has been recorded..and this will continue..it is inevitable!!

I do get it!!! ;) :usa:
 




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JGAMBLE said:
The only reason that anyone even has the possibility to do this is because the military keeps the borders safe so we can practice democracy. Get rid of the military and see how Osama or Saddam let you practice these right.:chug: :chug:

that is right. Yea ppl die for all this but ppl wouldnt even have a chance to do these things if we were not there to keep others from taking over and not giving yall the chance to have what yall want. My man is down there in Iraq now fightting for other ppl to have this chance as well. Maybe if i get lucky my unit will send me.

accually the military does patrol. Every force has units that in war time and non war time that are doing this. So much happens here in the US but no one heres about it but the military. Like here in Arlngton alone we are level 2 cause of the military doing their job and stopping the terrist before ppl find out.
 




falls guy

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I can't speak for the U.S. because I'm Canadian, only to say I admire their patriotism. I am also very, very proud of my country and our peaceful nature and of course our freedom from violence. To get back on topic, in Canada, we are not forced(drafted) or whatever you call it, to join the military, and our country is hardly ever at war, although we did cause the Germans to retreat which helped lead to the end of WW2 in Normandy. I haven't seen a soldier except for on TV in about 15 years. Therefore my point here is civilians should not have to be "up on" military rules, in Canada anyways. Military rules do not apply to civilians, civilians didn't sign up, or don't get paid to memorize them.
Peace
 




Stephen

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dreadknots- I can pitch that right back at you though, if it werent for the people here fighting in the streets for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and freedom to demonstrate and the people back here living their lives and growing our country's economy and contributing in other ways the military would have nothing to fight for.

I admire the service that you and your boyfriend/husband/etc are providing, but its no more important to the well being and future of our country than whats provided by others in different capacities.

My only point is that the notion that soldiers are the only people who have sacrificed for the well being of our country and our civil liberties is totally wrong.
 




oso2324

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This is a great discussion - and one worth the bandwidth. During the late 60's and early 70's I went to a military boarding high school where they drilled patriotism and God into the cadet corps 7 days a week. This was during VietNam so there was plenty of discussion about patriotism and what it means to be an American. I've got three friends on the Wall. They enlisted, were and are patriots, a made the greatest sacrifice in a questionable cause. I also well remember Me Lai massacre and Kent State.

During the 70' and 80's I spent 10 years as a police officer in a northern Virgina jurisdiction. I lost 2 very close friends in the line of duty. They too were patriots serving their community and country and left behind survivors.
I will forever cherish their memory.

From 1985 to 1995 I was in the intelligence community and spent time overseas on this country's front lines in the Drug War, implementing this country's foreign policy. My area of expertise is low intensity conflict or asymetric warfare in Latin America. It is often said that the first casualty of any war is the truth. I left that career because I could not reconcile what I was doing with the truth as I knew the truth to be.

In January 2002 I rejoined the intel community to engage in the GWOT. And I believed in what our country was doing. We were attacked. I do question the move to expand the GWOT to include OIF based on the intel of WMD. GWOT and OIF are totally separate issues yet some of our political leaders blur the lines for political gain and expediency. WMD WAS NEVER A SLAM DUNK and over 1,700 brave American men and women have lost their lives based on that lie.

In my opinion, being an Amercian patriot is to question everything the government tells it citizens and get personally engaged in the debate on all the issues that are of personal concern and at every level of government; local, state and federal. Questioning policy doesn't imply negativism, only a search for the truth and ultimately provides the means to hold our elected leaders accountable for their actions.

Civil disobedience for a political cause is as PATRIOTIC as donning a uniform and carrying an M-16 overseas. The Civil Rights movement would never have gotten to where we are now if not for those brave Amercians who challenged the status quo at Selma. The debacle that was Viet Nam would have ended much earlier had Sec Def McNamara, Gen. Westmoreland and LBJ been honest with the American people. Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the press are in our Bill of Rights precisely to make our elected leaders uncomfortable because these freedoms hold our leaders accountable for their positions and actions done in the name of the voter, the American citizen.

So to those in uniform who defend our liberties, God Bless You. God Bless those who also stand up to authority and question the motives behind government policies.

Mike
 




S

shaggsta

oso2324 said:
In my opinion, being an Amercian patriot is to question everything the government tells it citizens and get personally engaged in the debate on all the issues that are of personal concern and at every level of government; local, state and federal. Questioning policy doesn't imply negativism, only a search for the truth and ultimately provides the means to hold our elected leaders accountable for their actions.

Civil disobedience for a political cause is as PATRIOTIC as donning a uniform and carrying an M-16 overseas. The Civil Rights movement would never have gotten to where we are now if not for those brave Amercians who challenged the status quo at Selma. The debacle that was Viet Nam would have ended much earlier had Sec Def McNamara, Gen. Westmoreland and LBJ been honest with the American people. Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the press are in our Bill of Rights precisely to make our elected leaders uncomfortable because these freedoms hold our leaders accountable for their positions and actions done in the name of the voter, the American citizen.

So to those in uniform who defend our liberties, God Bless You. God Bless those who also stand up to authority and question the motives behind government policies.

Mike


Couldn't be better said Mike!
 




falls guy

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Well said. I couldn't agree with you more. I took a Media course once and learned that they only want to tell you the good stuff that happens like "500 or so schools were renovated" but the press is not allowed to tell anyone how they got destroyed in the first place. It's too bad that the press and eveywhere, even on this site I've noticed that if any truths are spoken about George Bush, or gas prices , or many other true facts that seem negative, these facts are sensored or edited and taboo'd. That is not FREE speech. If the truth bothers people, than maybe that just goes to show that the truth should be changed and the people who sensor it know it.
Peace
 




Doug

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Well, the way I look at it.. All the patriotic people we have in our country fighting for civil rights, freedom of speech, etc, wouldn't have that right if it weren't for the soldiers. They're the ones who leave thier families to go off to adurkadurkastan and stop these terrorists from shipping a nuke over here and blowing up one of our cities. No matter how much you scream and yell and protest, It's not going to stop attacks on our nation. I'm not trying to say people fighting for our rights in this country aren't important. People like that have thier place have have shaped this country into what it is.
 




S

shaggsta

however wasn't it people discontent with being under Brittish rule who protested and rallied the soldiers to create your nation? I guess it boils down to the chicken or the egg question...
 




oso2324

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Doug, I applaud your position though I think your sentiments about the continued existence of these rights are directly attributable to soldiers and soldiers alone are misplaced. Freedom loving people have the right to responsibly be critical of thier government when that government oversteps its bounds. It was President Lincoln who suspended habeus corpus during the civil war and he was rightly and roundly criticized for it from all corners.

How do you feel about deploying the military, and I mean really deploying the US Armed Forces along our borders with our neighbors to the north and south? I infer from your position that you might favor such a policy and there is nothing wrong with that position. But, how does that square with posse committatus. And make no mistake about it - both our neighbors are fully aware of that law. I have spent countless hours trying to explain the history and purpose of PC to our hemispheric allies in the war on drugs.

There is also a quality of hypocracy in US foreign opolicy when the government believes it can impose our concept of democracy on other nations - remember Operation Restore Democracy in Haiti. It is damn hard to restore something that never was. After 4 billion dollars, Haiti is as chaotic as it ever was.

So yes, the military does contribute to our overall security as a nation but it is not the ultimate guarantor of our constitutional rights. That honor goes to every American citizen.
 




falls guy

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United States and Canada has the longest unprotected border in the world. That is something to be proud of. It doesn't need to be guarded. Against what? The only harmful thing that crosses into the States from Canada is the odd doob! Far less of a concern and less harmful than the crack, and coke coming through the States.
Peace
 




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Stephen- I never did say that the soldiers were the only ones who fight. PPL all over the world aid in this country. But as Doug said its the the soldier who leaves his family and friends. We are the ones who directly help and so forth. It is us who go do the big things and take the chances and sacrifice our lives for our country and the civilian who does the little things to help. Both together is what makes all the rights we have here posible.
 




oso2324

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Dreadknots Girl - be proud of being a soldier but please do not demean the "civilian" who does the little things to help." I worked in MI as a civilian and went places and did things the military couldn't. Every contribution is valued as is every contributor. The last time I checked the US has an all voluntary military and those serving in uniform were and are fully cognizant of the sacrifices that might be asked of them. The Army is having such a difficult time meeting recruitng goals for both enlisted and commissioned that DCSPER has recently lowered the standards for OCS and has increased enlistement bonuses. Plus the Recruriting Cmd recently had a 24 hr stand down to reinforce ethics in their recruiters.
 


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ok didnt mean to demean the civilian. its not like that. use to be one will again some day. also the Marines thought are having a hard time recruiting too. except we havent changed anything cause of it. Not sure why...at least an elistment bones would help but o well
 




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