My new 347

Dono · July 14, 2015

I am thinking it might be easier to remove the trans. I'll discuss with Tim.
When removing the rear main, wouldn't it be best to remove the end cap on the motor to make sure we are seating the rear main seal without tearing it and make sure its compressed and sealed properly?

Removing that end cap means pulling the motor to get that oil pan off.

CDW6212R · July 14, 2015

Wow, I'm also speechless. That's horrible to see it still leaking.

Dono · July 14, 2015

Im still stuck on 'can a brand new rear main seal that has not pushed out leak that badly'?
With the oil dropping on the exhaust after being on the highway, it was a bit of a smoke show in the garage.

CDW6212R · July 14, 2015

We here are just suggesting ideas, since we aren't there and had seen any of it.

I/We wish were all there and could help, to check again the oil pan seal, rear main seal, fit of the pan etc. I can't imagine the rear seal having a nick in it, or the crank having any groove to let that much oil pass.

Unless the oil leak was from above the pan and is running down to the back, the pan is still the best guess I think. See if you can get any look above the pan at all, the back of the lower intake seam if possible. Fingers crossed,

gmanpaint · July 14, 2015

Is it a dry or wet main seal? Are you using the seal installer tool or something else?

Dono · July 14, 2015

I'm all for any suggestions.
The felpro seal is a standard felpro brown. Woody says he uses them because they work, and work extremely well. So, if the rear main is bad (It definitely wasn't pushed out) I would start to think there is a crank issue (No, there's no unusual filings in the oil other than those gear bits that were in the bottom of the pan). Nicked crank? Unlikely, but I will be feeling for it if it is a rear main leak. I do have a teflon rear main seal, so if the one in there is an issue, that's what I'll be using.
We obviously need to spend more time looking at the back of the motor next time its out.
Tim came up with a great idea. Find the engine oil dye and a light and use it. Add the dye and run the motor for a bit. Then, pull the motor and hit it with the light. With a bit of luck, that will tell the story.

Tonight I yarded the front diff out. I wont start on the motor till we source some die. I hope that's tomorrow, as I don't want this to drag on too long.

Remember the movie called 'Ground Hog day' with Bill Murray? I feel like Bill Murray.

4pointslow · July 14, 2015

Ghd

I feel your pain, sorry you are going through this.
My 4 door explorers transmission treated me to this ground hog day syndrome.
If you recall I changed the torque converter on new years eve while everyone else was partying, only to have the same problem afterwards that turned out to be the remanufactured Valve body was defective.
You will conquer this oil leak!

Did you torque the flex plate bolts, and do the holes go all the way through the crank. You mentioned something about sealer in the bolts holes.
I guess it might not leak that bad if it were only that.

Sometimes the spring can fall off the rear main seal during installation, rare but can happen. Maybe that is what happened.

Do you have any more pictures of the back of the engine?

Dono · July 14, 2015

Yes, we torqued the flex plate bolts and I used pipe sealer on the bolts as they do go straight thru.

Honestly, the puddle of oil was running down the cardboard in the garage after I came home tonight. This is no small leak. I'm truly amazed the leak wasn't completely obvious when we had the motor out.

There are no more pictures, as the one picture was the highest point of any oil wetness.

I'll take more pics when it comes out this time. I won't rush to re-install, and at the very fastest it will be 'next day' drop in. It was too hot last time, and we tried to do too much too fast.

This is sure pointing to rear main. I hope your right, and that spring popped out. I hadn't thought of that. If the spring is missing, I could definitely see that there could be lots of leaking going on.

I remember your trans experience well. It sticks out in my mind, and I have referenced that thread a few times.

vroomzoomboom · July 15, 2015

im trying to find dye, but i have come up empty handed so far. i have two more people i am going to call and see if they have it, and a light.

4pointslow · July 15, 2015

Oil Dye

I highly recommend using a dye light, you can even take a picture through the yellow glasses and see the dye in the picture.
I found oil dye and a UV light at Pep Boys for about $50.00 a couple years back.
I have not used the dye but I used the light on the AC system that comes with dye from the factory starting in 1995. The light worked fine.

If you get the rear main seal out and the spring is still in its place, and there are no nicks or cuts in the seal then pay close attention to the crank surface and measure crankshaft end play.

One other thing to think about is that some seals are made to be used with sleeves that go over the crankshaft, those seals are a bit larger on inside diameter and may leak when used with crankshafts that have no sleeves. It is possible that someone boxed the seal wrong that Woody received.

If the dye light shows no signs of dye on the seal then maybe you can purchase an oil pan from woody that he knows would be a good match. Also ask him if he recommends removing the rear main end cap to do the seal. Usually the rear main seal is installed using a installer tool that pushes the seal in the right distance.

The only other two things I can think about at the moment are that you have a modified PCV system, and the same oil pan as before and both engines had/have an oil leak at the rear main seal.

Dono · July 15, 2015

I'll keep trying Woody. I'm sure its pretty hectic around there.

Im certain that my pvc system is not causing pressure issues in the crank case. I have checked my hobbs switch and electric valve setup with power applied, and me blowing lightly in to the hobbs switch. It seals very well under just light pressure with me blowing in to the hobbs switch.
Woody is sure my dip stick tube would pop out before blowing the rear main seal, and that has never happened.
Also, my pcv valve (A valve that seals tight from a factory boosted Ford that seals tight to prevent reverse flow, again tested with me blowing in to it) has not popped out. Its not in there very tight, so it will act as a fuse.
I have not turned up the boost past 5lbs yet. Not a lot of pressure.

Tim sourced some dye and a light. I'll make sure I get lots of pics.

Dono · July 15, 2015

I just spoke with Woody. He will still be extremely surprised fro a rear main to leak that badly. We would all agree.

He's hoping the dye will help, but the splatter will make it tough. He has asked for all kinds of pictures also once the motor is out.

When the rear main goes in (If that's what has to happen), his preferred way it to loosen off the rear cap, and install the new seal. Then torque to 80.

One suggestion he had was to get some help and pressurize the crank case with a few lbs pressure thru the oil dipstick tube and listen around the back of the motor. If we hear air escaping and can pinpoint where, go for a beer.
As Woody stated, there isn't much going on at the back of the motor, and this isn't exactly brain surgery.

CDW6212R · July 15, 2015

Unrelated to this leaking at the moment, but maybe later someone will try adding a vacuum pump to a boosted Explorer.

There are lots of choices for those pumps, and for higher power levels they do result in measurable power gains. The 302 has a place below the alternator where the tensioner is, where I think such a pump would fit. I'm hoping the bracket there where the idler is can be altered to mount one of the aftermarket vacuum pumps. Any boosted engine could use that, but it's a rare item to see, away from serious track cars.

Maybe someone here will give it a shot

Dono · July 15, 2015

Added UV dye tonight, it didn't even take 10 minutes to get this.
Its hot out, motor's hot....I won't be pulling anything off my motor tonight. I'll get some work done tomorrow.

4pointslow · July 15, 2015

Testing with engine out

Another way of testing for oil leaks with the engine out is a smoke machine.
If you can get your hands on one to borrow.
I saw a neat one made out of an old paint can. Don't know about the quality though since I never used one made with a paint can. Looked like it would work.

4pointslow · July 15, 2015

Oil leak

I just looked at some pictures of the back of 302 blocks, there is also a couple of oil galley plugs, and a cam plug. they could leak oil but they are higher than the crankshaft.

Dono · July 16, 2015

Well, it gets worse.
I pulled off my oil filter and there's pretty sparkles in the oil. I quit for the night.

Maybe tomorrow ill get the courage to drain the oil in to a clean pan.

Measuring crank end play will be top on the list when the motor comes out. Then, there's a good chance the trans is coming out.

I wonder if its possible its the dye I'm seeing. I really doubt it though.

jd4242 · July 16, 2015

Man i thought i had bad luck and was *****ing about pulln trans again..geez you guys are dedicated..i would have had the gas and flame out by now...especially if i had a sc v6 in the driveway..

Keep at it!!!! Goodluck

4pointslow · July 16, 2015

particles

Dono said:
Well, it gets worse.
I pulled off my oil filter and there's pretty sparkles in the oil.

Maybe it is just particles of the Cam synchronizer assembly teeth.

Dono · July 19, 2015

There's been some movement on this, although its been slow as time has been an issue.

I cut my oil filter apart, and there was no metal in it, other than the few swirls I mentioned.
Magnetic drain plug picked up very minor fine soft bits and one extremely small bit of metal. I'm going to say normal for a new motor. I think the dye made things look worse than they were (that and being tired). The oil came out today and definitely looked green, even under normal light.

I did get some time today. Motor is ready to pull except for tc nuts and motor mounts.

Attached is a pic with the inspection cover off looking at the flex plate (the side facing the motor, of course). See the green specs on the back side of it? Also, There are definite outward streaks on the flex plate in the light. I think that means its rear main. So, if it is rear main, why? Im sure the main seal went in correctly at Woodys shop.

Hopefully Tim can stop by tomorrow and we can pull the motor. Also, crank end play will be checked. I'll take all kinds of pictures. Woody wants to see them also. He said not to put the motor back in until he has seen pictures and helped diagnose also.

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