Question about V8 exhaust leaks

[absentx]

Hi all,

Well, got the nightmare scenario call on my 07 V8 Eddie Bauer with 105,000 miles today. Had it in the shop to fix a known exhaust leak that had been present for probably the last forty thousand miles, finally decided to get it taken care of. It was the classic presentation of a pretty loud clicking noise at startup and then goes away after about thirty seconds.

Thought it was all going well but the call today indicated snapped studs/bolts that can only be extracted with removal of cylinder which in turn requires removal of the engine. Multiple shops confirm a 25 plus hour job just for labor. I opted not to do that (in fact the shop its at called back and said ultimately they couldn't pull the engine, so they just put it back together).

Needless to say I think this is where the line is drawn for this truck. I really wanted to drive it to 225,000 plus miles like I did my last explorer but this truck unfortunately might not be the one.

I have found a really nice 2010 that appears to be much better taken care of by the first owners than mine ever was by the first owner. I bought this in 2012 and its kind of been a black sheep, but I absolutely love this generation of Explorers with the V8, so I want to give it one more shot and see if I can get a good one I can run for another five to seven years.

My question is how common is this exhaust manifold problem with the broken bolts? I absolutely don't want to have to deal with this again. Unfortunately I bet this leak was present on my vehicle the day I bought it but I didn't know what to look or listen for. Was there any improvement or update between 2007 and 2010 that would make this less of an issue on this new-to-me truck I am looking at?

 

[07EddyB]

I don't think things have improved with the newer Explorers. In fact, I'm hearing cracked manifolds are occurring on the next gen also. I have a 07 V8 also - I'm just 300 miles shy of 100K. I have a new manifold, gaskets, and studs sitting on my workbench right now waiting for this coming long weekend to install. Wish me luck.
As you know, this is a common problem - it's being fixed every single day without pulling the motor. In fact, it's fixed every day without even pulling the cylinder head which I believe is certainly possible without pulling the motor. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see why you would pull the entire motor to pull a head.
There are multiple ways to extract the broken studs. Drilling with a left hand bit is one - that's my plan. Others weld a nut onto the end of the broken stud with great success - I don't own a welder though.
I would keep looking around if I were you. Someone in your area has done this multiple times without ever pulling the engine.

 

[Explorer_PL]

I second what Eddy said.
I would never get a new car just because of an expensive repair, that is still less than the new or used car. Find another shop, broken exhaust manifolds are so common on every brand that an experienced shop should be able to do it without pulling the motor or heads.
And that problem is same for all 06-10 v8 so you are not gaining anything.
I did both my manifolds myself, it took me 2 days, 1 for each side and yes, it's a major pain due to tight space there. There is a thread somewhere with pictures that I took.
But what EddyB said:
"Drilling with a left hand bit is one - that's my plan. Others weld a nut onto the end of the broken stud with great success" - are very common methods for most of the shops. It may be difficult for guys like us, but shops can do it.
And I pulled the engine twice out of mine, and if that were the route to go, I'd prefer to pull the entire engine up rather than pulling the heads. That way you are avoiding the head gasket and timing job which will add to the labor.
And yes again, that generation of explorers are one of the better ones from utility point of view. Not too big but still spacious, that's why we have 2 of them

 

[SixPonies]

I believe that this problem was corrected in the 2009 model year. I seen some discussion discussion about that in these forums, and also in some Facebook Explorer and Sport Trac groups. My 2010 Sport Trac has 106K miles so far, and I've not yet experienced that problem.

 

[absentx]

Well they are snapped off flush so there must be an access problem because they needed to be drilled out by the sounds of it.

I just talked to two highly recommended exhaust shops (by peer mechanics, not customers) and there was no indication of "oh yeah we can do that without pulling the engine" everyone was quite wary and aware of how big of a pain this is...which I realize, and that's why I am staying away from the job because I just don't have the time right now to do it myself.

Hmmm not sure what to do. Trying to get this wrapped before a 700 mile round trip journey starting this week.

Right now the difference between paying to have the job done without an engine pull is several thousand dollars. I can trade my truck in plus five thousand bucks and have a damn near paid off three year newer truck with 30,000 less miles...so no easy answers at the moment.

I have also driven the thing with this issue for most of the time I have had it. Started getting louder in the last few months though and I wanted to take care of before this trip, although I probably could still take it on the trip.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

I had bought mine last year with this issue and it seems to have significantly increased in sound intensity since the beginning of summer, but she still quiets down after a minute or two after startup. What's wrong with continuing to drive it as-is? That's my plan. I don't believe anything too serious will come with driving it like this, just more of a sound nuisance. To be honest I didn't think it would have been as intense of a repair and probably should have researched it more thoroughly, but hey, we live and learn. I'm planning on having a professional fix it in the future (a year or two maybe?) and am guesstimating somewhere around $1,500-$2,000 for the repair? I believe Ford Tech Makuloco has a video on YouTube showing how to fix this issue. Seems straight forward, but I do not have the tools, the knowhow if I run into any extreme issues, or the patience to work in those tight quarters...

More importantly, I've been wondering what prevents this from happening again? Or will it be repaired with the same materials and the problem repeats itself within 100k miles? If it's just going to happen again I'll save my money. I normally own my vehicles for 100k+ miles and buy them with 100k+ miles. I never once had a vehicle with exhaust manifold problems like this.

 

[Explorer_PL]

The only issue may be, and maybe it's just my imagination, the exhaust gases lurking below the hood and entering the cabin. But it may be non-existent really.
But I drove mine like that also for a year or two before I could not stand it, especially driving next to a building or any sort of a wall or divider.

 

[absentx]

Yeah exactly! Loud as can be when next to a building...if you are outside your truck you finally go "oh wow that is loud".

But also at the same point, yes, I have driven mine like this for a long time, just seemed like it was getting worse and should eventually be taken care of.

As for what is preventing it from happening again - not sure, but I think the idea is to replace/repair with better parts and then a greater chance of success, although I do not know if the aftermarket parts available are better or not?

 

[Explorer_PL]

I used Motorcraft on one side, and Dorman on the other. But I used stainless steel studs. It's been 60 k miles and it's still quiet.
This is what I did in case you did not see that thread.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums...ds-replacement-on-4-6-v8.416927/#post-3354454

 

[07EddyB]

I used Motorcraft on one side, and Dorman on the other. But I used stainless steel studs. It's been 60 k miles and it's still quiet.
This is what I did in case you did not see that thread.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums...ds-replacement-on-4-6-v8.416927/#post-3354454

I plan to do the right side this weekend. Did you ever find any torque values on the studs and nuts? I haven't seen anything but then again I don't know that I could get a torque wrench in there anyway.

 

[Explorer_PL]

I did not bother.
I just used a hand feel method

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Wow, that's crazy Explorer_PL. Major kudos to you! Did you check to see if your old manifolds were warped? That's another concern I read about with the repair... if you drive long enough with broken studs the exhaust manifolds will warp?

I'd hope that the new studs are better designed in some shape or form to prevent future breakage.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Both were warped. I used SS studs so I can extract them easier when the time comes again

 

[07EddyB]

Gotcha - I'll tighten until my elbow clicks.

 

[absentx]

Just got mine back...so on the passenger side, when you look down at the manifold now, only one stud is there

Not sure on the numbering but from the front of the truck, #8, #7 and #5 top studs are broken flush to cylinder block so nothing to grab onto, would need to find the room to drill in. Assuming the right angle drill and getting some stuff out of the way is the path to extracting these...Not sure I am up to the job. I nearly lost my mind extracting some studs from a Polaris personal watercraft a few years ago...it was awful but I got it done.

 

[Bill MacLeod]

I plan to do the right side this weekend. Did you ever find any torque values on the studs and nuts? I haven't seen anything but then again I don't know that I could get a torque wrench in there anyway.

I used the factory specs, 9 lb-ft for the studs and 18 lb-ft for the nuts.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Absentx, yikes man. I'm afraid to take a look to see what mine looks like . To go back to your original question... I've also thought about trading in the 08 to upgrade to a 2010 or even jumping to an Expedition. Similar situation to yours, mine has been a black sheep... nothing but one headache after another. I still love pretty much everything about this generation Explorer though. I often too wonder if there's one that was better taken care of (and I do see a few come through my area every now and then on Autotrader) to kind of give me a clean slate. I've dumped a good bit of money into mine so far so it would be kind of stupid for me to jump ship unless I were to find one that was very recently tuned up and had extensive records. Plus, I wonder how much of a hit I would take on the trade in. Anyways, if this is the only headache you're currently running into, I'd not let this problem be your last straw.

Another thing I remember reading - Isn't this problem caused by 2 (or more) dissimilar metals being placed right up against each other? The block and the manifolds heat up differently causing extreme stress on the studs and eventually snaps the studs prematurely. Anyone have any idea what the manifold is made out of?

07EddyB - You are crazy, but I wish you the best of luck! God speed my friend!

 

[07EddyB]

I used the factory specs, 9 lb-ft for the studs and 18 lb-ft for the nuts.

Thanks Bill. I do have a smaller 3/8 torque wrench in inch pounds so maybe I can squeeze it in there. Did you use antisieze on the studs? I've got plenty of nickle left over from the spark plugs.
OP - sorry for the slight thread hijack but it is slightly related. So at this point you have 3 broken studs on the top. My question at this point is - what do you have left to lose if you give it a try? Now that the studs are exposed, you can get some PB Blaster or such directly on the threads. Many people have stated that the studs aren't always stuck or rusted in and they came right out once they could get an extractor in there. I would assume this is more likely in the case where the stud snapped on it's own - not during the attempted removal of the nut. I would be tempted in this case to rig up a template allowing you to use the existing hole in the manifold to keep your bit straight and try a left handed bit. If you don't have a right angle drill or left handed bits then buy some. That $250 or so is a lot cheaper than your current alternative and will be there for the next job - which will most likely be the manifold on the other side.
Good luck to you - for some reason the common problems on these Explorers seem to always come with extra complications.

 

[07EddyB]

Absentx, yikes man. I'm afraid to take a look to see what mine looks like . To go back to your original question... I've also thought about trading in the 08 to upgrade to a 2010 or even jumping to an Expedition. Similar situation to yours, mine has been a black sheep... nothing but one headache after another. I still love pretty much everything about this generation Explorer though. I often too wonder if there's one that was better taken care of (and I do see a few come through my area every now and then on Autotrader) to kind of give me a clean slate. I've dumped a good bit of money into mine so far so it would be kind of stupid for me to jump ship unless I were to find one that was very recently tuned up and had extensive records. Plus, I wonder how much of a hit I would take on the trade in. Anyways, if this is the only headache you're currently running into, I'd not let this problem be your last straw.

Another thing I remember reading - Isn't this problem caused by 2 (or more) dissimilar metals being placed right up against each other? The block and the manifolds heat up differently causing extreme stress on the studs and eventually snaps the studs prematurely. Anyone have any idea what the manifold is made out of?

07EddyB - You are crazy, but I wish you the best of luck! God speed my friend!

I'm pretty sure the manifold is cast iron - it's a hefty piece.

Crazy? Apparently we have met - you know me well.
What I lack in pure mechanical skills I make up for in pure determination and an unwillingness to admit defeat. I'm about to jinx myself here but I consider the manifold one of those jobs that I can attempt with relatively low risk. By that I mean that unless I drill a hole into the head in the wrong place or more than half the studs snap I can always put the manifold back on and take it somewhere. When I did my spark plugs and my radiator failure was not an option. The truck was torn apart and wasn't going anywhere until the job was done.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Just from my experience, same thing as EddyB. I do not have any mechanical expertise, all i do is out of curiosity and in protest to pay those crazy hourly shop cost, about $ 110-120 an hour here in NY. But they need to pay the mortgage, taxes and everything so just because East Coast is expensive, all services cost you dear.

Now the hints:

The semi good news is that not all the studs are behind the strut tower, so on some of them you can use a straight drill.
I only had 2 broken, and 1 of them just came out when I got my extractor in it and twisted it - check my pictures.
The other one was a nightmare, i could not get the drill bit centered so it wondered off, and started drilling on the edge. At that point, I had to switch from M8 to M10 tap since the hole in the head was getting to big to tap with 8. I was also concerned about drilling into water jacket. Because I still could not get the drill centered, i ended up with M12 hole, that I tapped just few treads, and bore out the corresponding ear on the manifold.
But from what I read, even if you hit the water jacket, driving a stud or a bolt in there actually fixes the problem.
Another method is to just cut all the studs flush with the manifold, then remove the manifold and you have tons of space at that point, but you need to complete the job no matter what at this point.
You have the studs sticking out about 3/8".
Lastly, what helps is unbolting the motor mounts one at a time depending what side you are doing, and pushing the engine up about 2 inches per side, that helps a lot.

And of course removing the wheel and the inner liner is a must, as well as the starter.