r-12 to r-134a freon conversion | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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r-12 to r-134a freon conversion

born2drive

Active Member
Joined
November 25, 2002
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City, State
Pasadena, CA
Year, Model & Trim Level
'93 XLT 4.0 4x4
Hello
I am having trouble with my air conditioner. There is a leak in it somewhere. When i get that figured out and fixed, what do i have to do to change the r-12 to r-134a? freon. I think that its r-134a, anyway, what do i need to do.

Is it easy? Do I need to completely redo the whole system? Is just rolling down the windows a good option? (I live in CA so i need A/C in the summer!)

thanks
 



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93s have R-12 from the factory

To change from R-12 to R-134a is much more than most people and those so called kits realize. I just did this summer of 2001 with my buddy that owns an A/C shop. Not only do you most likely have a leak but also prob a bad compressor. They are known for "black death". When you open up your system there will be most likely be a black sludge. Very common problem in Fords. You will need a new compressor, orphas tube, R-134a seal kit, R-134a adaptors, and a good flushing. I would bet on a new condensor (in front of radiator), that's what I had to do because of blockage from blown compresor parts. Be prepaired to spend some $$$ but well worth it to get it done right. My buddy had his done 2 years before I did mine and both of ours are still ice cold and will chill us out of the trucks even in the desert summer.
 






AAARRG-
I might have to spend that much money even if the A/C stopped working all of a sudden? We were in Death Valley and after a day of rough 4x4ing, we turned on the A/C and nothing happend and it was working that morning before we left. I hope I don't! How much is $$$? $500, $1000? *gulp* more?

thanks
John
 






A/C is intimidating at first, but with time, tools and research you can do it yourself and save. Even if you buy tools, you'll come out ahead.

-Leak Check: You can rent/buy on ebay "sniffers" that look for gas. You can also buy "Dye kits" from any autoparts store. You inject a UV dye into the system and hold a UV bulb over your a/c components. the kits cost from 30-90 bucks. But the system must be partially filled to use the UV method.

-If the compressor is OK, (new compressors are around 200) then you will need to disconnect all lines, flush, replace the o-rings and orifice tube, and reassemble.

-VACUUM THE SYSTEM!! this is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. cheap vacuum pumps that hook up to an air compressor can be had for 15 bucks on ebay. they are not the greatist, but its a truck, not a cryogenic chamber.

- charging - manifold and gauge set: 40-100 bucks. sooo worth it. make it your first purchase - will allow you to check if your system is discharged, undercharged, just right or dangerously overcharged.

the 134 gas is cheap.

I've done systems, feel free to post back or PM me with questions. every project can be done by yourself!
 






thanks very much for the confidence! I probably will be back on here for more help! when the time comes! won't be able to do much before spring break - 2 weeks because of school

THANKS A LOT
John
P.S. You're signature's extremely funny!
 






Originally posted by born2drive
AAARRG-
I might have to spend that much money even if the A/C stopped working all of a sudden? We were in Death Valley and after a day of rough 4x4ing, we turned on the A/C and nothing happend and it was working that morning before we left. I hope I don't! How much is $$$? $500, $1000? *gulp* more?

thanks
John
That's a good sign. If it just quit all of the suddon, you have a chance it's just a leak. I have found the dye works the best to find a leak. You will still have to change out a lot of parts to convert to R-134a. Good news is if your compressor is OK, than most often it can take the changeover. If the oil comes out black then it won't.
V8BoatBuilder is right, it is easy and not hard to understand. I used my buddies shop because of his tools and he trained me well. Get your own and it's cake.
 






AC ! you're making me cold just thinking about it over here in pa. :D
 






thanks everybody!!!

I think that i will try to do it over spring break. thats in two weeks. i have a friend that knows more about a/c's than i do, but i have never worked with him. This could be a good or bad thing! (I haven't decided yet.)

I hope that i can manage! (I think that i can with his help and the cd manual from ford)

Probably will be reposting in a couple of weeks. Thanks again!
John
 






I was in the radiator shop with my work truck the other day and they had a sign that said they had r12 and could put in factory systems that originally came with it. I imagine it's more expensive, and depending why yours quit, might not be worth it.
 






R-12 went out of production in 1996, but there is plenty of it still around. It is regulated so you need a license to buy it, so you won't find it in your auto parts store. Whereas a can of R-134a may be $5 a can of R-12 goes for about $20-30. Most shops are charging about $30 a lb for it. It is often cheaper to fix and recharge an R-12 rather than convert it. As to costs to fix a totally black death destroyed system, I did a "firewall forward" rebuild on my 92 (and stayed with R-12) and the total parts cost was about $600, that was new everything firewall forward. HTH.
 






good thread i have a changeover kit waiting for me in my garage i had 10 cans of R-12 left from back in the day and recharged my ac last year i assumed it had a leak (stuff had to go somewhere right?) but i just turned my ac on the other day and it still blows cold thank god i thought the changeover was as easy as the kit says a wee bit gullible i am sometimes
 






Biggs, I've said it elsewhere on here so I might as well say it here. In the AC industry the 134 changeover kits are calle "death kits" - why ? because youcannot simply add 134 and ester oil into a previously R-12 system without completely flushing out all the old oil and contaminants. Period. Simple as that. Eventually you WILL have a dead compressor on your hands. Also a proper conversion should have barrier hoses added and new green o-ring seals wherever o-rings are used in the system. Proper evacuation prior to recharge is also essential (and can lower vent temps 10 degrees or more). Oh those 15 air powered vacuum pumps? Better than nothing, but overall a VERY poor substitute for a REAL vacuum pump. If you have the R-12, stick with R-12. Give your changeover kit to your worst enemy.

Chris
 






thanks chris i'll take your advise what scares me though is "give your changeover kit to your worst enemy" my brother gave me this kit i better go thump him a few times
 






Someone asked me in e-mail how I'd do a conversion or recharge. Maybe, for the 2 cents worth and for those who are considering a $30 drop in kit, it might be illustrative to describe a conversion.

First thing is I check the type of refrigerant in the system. Mainly is it "contaminated" ? I have a tester to do this, it tells me the type of refrigerant and the purity. If it is contaminated I stop. In CA disposing of contaminated refrigerant is expensive, so I do not even go further. Many shops are similar. Remember this when you want to put in the whizbang "SUPER R-12 replacement". Often too then contain propane or butane. BANG!

Ok assuming it passes, I next check it for acid. Why ? It often shows a failing system in progress. If it fails it usually means replacement of major components, but I still proceed. I evacuate the system and recover the refrigerant.

Next I disassemble the hoses to/from the compressor, remove the expansion valve and take out the old "receiver/dryer or accumulator (depending on the type of car and what they call it). I now check for signs of black oil. If the acid was high the chances of blackened oil are high. If I find it, I start by assuming I have a system in failure. Often the expansion valve will already be gunked up with the "black crud".

Depending on the severity, I may try and flush the condensor. If I can flush it clean after a couple tries that is a good sign, if not, I assume the system is a total loss and replace the condensor, compressor and receiver/dryer (which gets replaced in 100% of the cases anyway). If I can flush it clean, I then flush everything I can get to. I often start with alcohol and finish with commercial flush.

Rubber hoses get tossed, and replace with barrier hoses. All o-rings get replaced with barrier ones, they are green in color. I replace the receiver dryer and any other inline filter. Any hint of compressor failure previously and I add an inline filter/dryer to the system.

I reassemble everything, add oil along the way (often to the receiver dryer and as a matter of course to a replacement compressor) up to specs.

I replace the schrader valves with new ones. Any rubber sealed part gets treated with NY-LOG - a terrific sealant. I add new connectors at this point too.

I hook up my vacuum pump and pull an initial vacuum. I stop and watch it to make sure it holds vacuum for 15 mins or so with no loss. If it does I restart the pump and run it for an hour. I feel the hoses and parts to see if any moisture has frozen (it will under vacuum). If I feel cold I stop and let it sit a while and then restart the process. I measure the vacuum and look to pull down to 50 microns or less (a damn good vacuum, near perfect). I have an electronic vacuum gauge that tells me these things.

Finally I connect my manifold set (used to hook up the vacuum pump earlier and monitor the state of vacuum - and at this point hooked into the automobile system high AND low sides) to a can of refrigerant and add liquid refrigerant to the "HIGH SIDE" with the can upside down until the flow stops. Once it has I disconnect it. I hook up a can to the low side port, and place the can in a coffee can of hot water. I can usually now start the engine and there is enough refrigerant for the car to run the AC. The balance of the necessary charge goes in as gas - can upright and into the low side with the car AC operational. NEVER feed a can into the low side upside down. The compressor cannot compress a liquid and a slug of liquid hitting the compressor can damage it. Once I have put in the required amount of freon (from the manufacturer's specs) I'm done.

I check the vent temps, and they are usually around freezing.

So for a usual job, that's it. Compare that to the instructions of your $30 death in a can kit.

Hope that helps.

Chris
 






my X had black death in the ac and they had to convert it to 134a and now it the only thing is it take just a little but longer to get as cold but im not complaning just though i would through that out there
 






All other things equal, in a system originally designed for R-12, R-134 will not cool quite as well. Not a LOT worse, just not as well as R-12. Plus the head pressures are higher with R-134.

Someone asked me if it was absolutely necessary to use barrier hoses. The answer is well, maybe not absolutely. There is evidence that if a hose is coated with mineral oil, THAT will act as a barrier preventing the escape of the tiny R-134 molecules. Same with O-rings. Yet to my mind I am trying to eliminate mineral oil from my system when I flush. So do I want to take the risk, or would I rather go with barrier hoses? I choose the latter, but admit others have stayed with the regular hoses and report they are ok.


Chris
 






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