Rear Differential Issue?

[andre74]

Hi Guys,

I’m reading for quite some time in this forum and found some very useful tips, video and photo tutorials. Thanks very much for all your posts

Anyway, now I have a problem where I’m stuck and can’t find anything, neither here nor anywhere else.

I’ve got a ’97 Explorer XLT manual (Australian edition) with just over 200.000km mileage. Since last week, I have a problem with the rear differential, I suppose. This model should have a limited-slip differential (door sticker says: AXLE D4).

I have a clonking, snapping noise and it feels like something is jamming inside the rear end of the drive train and blocking the wheels. It feels very seriously and it’s similar to when trying to turn in 4x4high mode. However, it’s only when driving slowly, up to about 20-25km/h and only when driving not exactly straight. That’s why, I suppose it’s the differential. It seems to be okay at higher speed.

I’m thinking about having a look inside the differential, not being sure what I can see or do. I would replace the oil at this occasion. I’m also planning to change the transfer case oil and other transmission fluids bit by bit.

The question is; can anyone say from my description if it is the differential? Could it be something else, e.g. the transfer case? Would it make sense to open the differential and is there a chance that it can be fixed easily or do I have to replace the differential. Can the differential clutch, if that's the cause, be replaced separately?

Possibly, I could get a rear axle from the car wrecker. Otherwise, it’s difficult and expensive to get parts here in Australia. It would probably top the value of the X..

I'll appreciate your help. Please, ask if you need more information.

Cheers
Andre

 

[imp]

Hi Guys,

I’m reading for quite some time in this forum and found some very useful tips, video and photo tutorials. Thanks very much for all your posts

Anyway, now I have a problem where I’m stuck and can’t find anything, neither here nor anywhere else.

I’ve got a ’97 Explorer XLT manual (Australian edition) with just over 200.000km mileage. Since last week, I have a problem with the rear differential, I suppose. This model should have a limited-slip differential (door sticker says: AXLE D4).

I have a clonking, snapping noise and it feels like something is jamming inside the rear end of the drive train and blocking the wheels. It feels very seriously and it’s similar to when trying to turn in 4x4high mode. However, it’s only when driving slowly, up to about 20-25km/h and only when driving not exactly straight. That’s why, I suppose it’s the differential. It seems to be okay at higher speed.

I’m thinking about having a look inside the differential, not being sure what I can see or do. I would replace the oil at this occasion. I’m also planning to change the transfer case oil and other transmission fluids bit by bit.

The question is; can anyone say from my description if it is the differential? Could it be something else, e.g. the transfer case? Would it make sense to open the differential and is there a chance that it can be fixed easily or do I have to replace the differential. Can the differential clutch, if that's the cause, be replaced separately?

Possibly, I could get a rear axle from the car wrecker. Otherwise, it’s difficult and expensive to get parts here in Australia. It would probably top the value of the X..

I'll appreciate your help. Please, ask if you need more information.

Cheers
Andre

First thought when jerky, grumbly sound occurs only when not travelling straight ahead, with limited slip, is clutch pack therein. However, with high mileage, clutches gradually become less effective, and less likely to cause noise. So, in view of mileage:

First, is sufficient lubricant in the center section? If yes, (or no, actually), add a tube of friction modifier, make certain differential is full, if not, top it up. Drive a short distance to mix in modifier, then park vehicle 24 hours or so. Drive vehicle then, far enough to thotoughly heat up the lubricant, noting whether noise has diminished (or disappeared, hopefully). If noise STILL present, likely there is a chipped or broken differential gear, or differential side gear. A knowledgeable axle guy probably could make the call, based on severity of the noise. Cost of adding modifier worth a try, but don't have high hopes........Let us know what the outcome is! imp

Edit: When driven straight ahead, assuming both rear tires are identical diameter, there is virtually no relative motion between the diff gears and their side gear mates, they spin as one single unit.............so no noise then, if damaged. Sorry, couldn't resist that, mate!

 

[andre74]

Thanks very much for your ideas..

Today, I opened the differential cover. I found a very black oil containing lots of metal debris. The debris belongs to the spider and side gears that, unfortunately, are gone badly. That’s also what caused the noise and feeling when the teeth of the gears slipped over. It looks very bad.

The differential case, obviously, has never been opened and the oil never been changed, which should have been done at the 150,000 km service. Probably, the old oil has prevented the clutch pack from working properly.

Now, I have to replace the spider and side gears. Not sure whether the clutch pack needs to be replaced as well. How can I tell if it’s still good? I couldn’t find dealers that sell the gears and the clutch pack and ship outside the US. Do you have any suggestions? I might have a first lock at a car yard and at Ford Australia. In the past I have ordered parts at Rockauto.com but they seem not to have what I need. Auto Parts Warehouse has a rebuild kit (link) and seems to ship internationally. And, the Mustang Shop has an 8.8 clutch kit (link) that (I’ve read somewhere) fits the Explorer, but ships to the US and Canada only. I could request it, though. Do you have any opinion on those parts/dealers?

Another idea is to get an Eaton locker or Richmond LockRight. Would it make sense?

Many thanks for your help.
Andre

 

[andre74]

Edit: When driven straight ahead, assuming both rear tires are identical diameter, there is virtually no relative motion between the diff gears and their side gear mates, they spin as one single unit.............so no noise then, if damaged. Sorry, couldn't resist that, mate!

Tires are both the same and still pretty good. I don't think they've caused the damage. Thanks for the hint, though

 

[imp]

Thanks very much for your ideas..

Today, I opened the differential cover. I found a very black oil containing lots of metal debris. The debris belongs to the spider and side gears that, unfortunately, are gone badly. That’s also what caused the noise and feeling when the teeth of the gears slipped over. It looks very bad. IMO, this is not a very common failure, but can happen. Main thing to check, if plan is to re-use the ring & pinion gears, is that no damage has been done to their gear teeth. Any metal particle of size larger than the gear clearance (backlash) passing between successive teeth, "spreads" the gear spacing, placing extremely high forces on the bearings and case itself. I have seen steel center sections broken in half by a cracked off gear tooth which lodged itself between the following three teeth. Thus, inspect the mating surfaces of the gear teeth carefully.

The differential case, obviously, has never been opened and the oil never been changed, which should have been done at the 150,000 km service. Probably, the old oil has prevented the clutch pack from working properly. These clutches, depending on the type of driving conditions prevalent over all those accumulated miles, rarely remain effective in driving both axles (i.e. "limited-slip) much beyond 75,000 km or so. Their "break-away" torque when new is usually on the order of 150 lb.-ft. or so. This value drops over their service life, until it becomes zero, or very nearly zero, at which time the differential acts as though it were a standard, non-limited slip unit.

Now, I have to replace the spider and side gears. Not sure whether the clutch pack needs to be replaced as well. How can I tell if it’s still good? If it were my unit, I would not even bother trying to determine serviceability of the old clutch, considering the long life of useage. However, testing of them is done normally while installed in the vehicle, one tire on the ground, supporting sufficient weight to prevent its slipping on the pavement, while the opposite axle is rotated by hand with a torque wrench, to determine the clutch's breakaway torque. This operation, obviously, must be done with functional differential and side gears present in the unit. The side gears inner flat surfaces are utilized as part of the clutch operation, as they rub tightly against a clutch plate.

I couldn’t find dealers that sell the gears and the clutch pack and ship outside the US. Do you have any suggestions? I might have a first lock at a car yard and at Ford Australia. In the past I have ordered parts at Rockauto.com but they seem not to have what I need. Auto Parts Warehouse has a rebuild kit (link) and seems to ship internationally. And, the Mustang Shop has an 8.8 clutch kit (link) that (I’ve read somewhere) fits the Explorer, but ships to the US and Canada only. I could request it, though. Do you have any opinion on those parts/dealers? I am sorry I cannot offer an opinion on the reliability of any parts supplier; however, I recognize deeply your plight. If no pressing demand dictates extreme speed in your repair process, send me a Personal Message, and perhaps a solution to your circumstances may be reached. I see no reason why I could not obtain your parts, and forward them to you. I am retired, and am lacking presently things to do, as my wife and I are spending the winter in the desert country. imp


Another idea is to get an Eaton locker or Richmond LockRight. Would it make sense? Not personally knowledgeable of these units' value; sorry.

Many thanks for your help.
Andre

 

[swashbuckler]

Another idea is to get an Eaton locker or Richmond LockRight. Would it make sense?

I run a lunchbox similiar to the LockRite in the rear of my 4Runner with no problems, but it's a very light and underpowered rig. I suspect that an automatic locker in the back of your X would scrub your tires up pretty bad. For a daily driver, I'd go with the Detroit TrueTrac limited slip. It doesn't have a clutch pack, so you don't need to worry about LSD additive or maintenance on the clutches.

If you need a real locker, have a look at the Auburn Gear ECTED units - they're a clutch-type LSD when open, but have an elocker similiar to the Eaton models. Spendy, but awesome.

 

[imp]

........ For a daily driver, I'd go with the Detroit TrueTrac limited slip. It doesn't have a clutch pack, so you don't need to worry about LSD additive or maintenance on the clutches.

The TrueTrac is in my mind the best possible way to go, but my experience working with it is nil. This concept came out years ago, when I was a young man into drag racing. For a span of time, little was heard of the TrueTrac, and I think someone bought the rights, possibly Detroit Locker Co., to continue making them. I do not think they are available to fit a whole lot of different carriers.

For use in front differentials of 4X4s, most makers recommend against any type of limited slip; however, the TrueTrac is ideal for front differential use, as the concept employed keeps both wheels turning in unison, but allows speed difference between them, with no clutches or slipping involved. I don't know their comparative mechanical strength to others. imp

 

[swashbuckler]

The TrueTrac is in my mind the best possible way to go, but my experience working with it is nil. This concept came out years ago, when I was a young man into drag racing. For a span of time, little was heard of the TrueTrac, and I think someone bought the rights, possibly Detroit Locker Co., to continue making them. I do not think they are available to fit a whole lot of different carriers.

For use in front differentials of 4X4s, most makers recommend against any type of limited slip; however, the TrueTrac is ideal for front differential use, as the concept employed keeps both wheels turning in unison, but allows speed difference between them, with no clutches or slipping involved. I don't know their comparative mechanical strength to others. imp

The problem with an LSD in the front diff is, the gears or clutches are working to keep the CVs at the same speed all the time, which will mess with your steering in any rig that you can't disconnect the hubs from the CVs.

I run a TrueTrac in the front of my Yota, and it's not a problem while my hubs are unlocked, but the understeer kicks in as soon as I locked them in, whether or not I'm in 4wd. It's not near as bad as an automatic or spool would be, but if I could afford a selectable for the front, I'd run that instead.

 

[imp]

The problem with an LSD in the front diff is, the gears or clutches are working to keep the CVs at the same speed all the time, which will mess with your steering in any rig that you can't disconnect the hubs from the CVs.

I run a TrueTrac in the front of my Yota, and it's not a problem while my hubs are unlocked, but the understeer kicks in as soon as I locked them in, whether or not I'm in 4wd. It's not near as bad as an automatic or spool would be, but if I could afford a selectable for the front, I'd run that instead.

Real good point! And one I never thought about. In the old days, the solid axle front set-up, non-independent, did not present the condition C-Vs do on individually-turning axle shafts. I am surprised, though, that the "feel" is as pronounced in the steering as you indicate. I wonder if the type of C-V used has some effect here: the ones using two members, drive and driven, connected by steel balls, transmit much less "feel", I think, and might therefore be better and acceptable to use of a TrueTrac up front. That type of C-V is far more expensive to make, and I doubt they are even to be found nowadays, but I could be wrong. The design using a single cylindrical pin as the drive means, transmitting torque to the inside of a pressed-steel "can", is probably the worst. I would guess the lobed-type with rounded-rollers which also work against the inside of a can, are among the commonest today. Entering an area now where I'm a bit shaky! imp

 

[bluestream1]

Thanks very much for your ideas..

Today, I opened the differential cover. I found a very black oil containing lots of metal debris. The debris belongs to the spider and side gears that, unfortunately, are gone badly. That’s also what caused the noise and feeling when the teeth of the gears slipped over. It looks very bad.

The differential case, obviously, has never been opened and the oil never been changed, which should have been done at the 150,000 km service. Probably, the old oil has prevented the clutch pack from working properly.

Now, I have to replace the spider and side gears. Not sure whether the clutch pack needs to be replaced as well. How can I tell if it’s still good? I couldn’t find dealers that sell the gears and the clutch pack and ship outside the US. Do you have any suggestions? I might have a first lock at a car yard and at Ford Australia. In the past I have ordered parts at Rockauto.com but they seem not to have what I need. Auto Parts Warehouse has a rebuild kit (link) and seems to ship internationally. And, the Mustang Shop has an 8.8 clutch kit (link) that (I’ve read somewhere) fits the Explorer, but ships to the US and Canada only. I could request it, though. Do you have any opinion on those parts/dealers?

Another idea is to get an Eaton locker or Richmond LockRight. Would it make sense?

Many thanks for your help.
Andre

The gear set you want is Ford 4L3Z-4215-FA (diff Gear Kit w/o trac-lok)) Comes in a box about 4X4X5 inches and weighs 1.87KG. It inclides the 4 gears and some washers, bolt and spring clips. I have set in front of me and I can scan the parts sheet and email to you if you want.

US MSRP is $135.77 Tasca parts on line has them for $86.81. I get trade pricing from my local dealer, but being in Canada I would guess these are $140 ish here

You would likely be better to find a good used diffy. They go for about $250 around here as they.re very common. You could gears on eBay, or PM me and i can get a price from local dealer

 

[andre74]

Hi Guys,

Thanks heaps for your help, tips and the offers to send parts over to OZ, really appreciate that. Sorry for my late response. I was busy working and earning $$ to invest in the X..

I might be able to get a used diff assembly from a car wrecker on Saturday for a reasonable price. I want to see it first but think it will be alright.

So far, I didn’t see any damages to the ring and pinion gears. I’ll have a closer look when I get differential out. I’ll clean the inside of the diff housing with break cleaner from the old oil and metal particles, thoroughly, before I get the replacement diff in to ensur all metal is out. I don’t have a chance to reach everything without removing the whole unit.

If the old oil caused the LSD to act more like an open diff, what could have caused the spider and side gears to slip over and grind off? I hardly use the car off-road. Sometimes, I drive on unsealed roads when going camping. Also, I never had to use the 4x4 switch, so it’s always in Auto. Therefore, there's no unusual stress on the drive train. However, I don’t know where the previous owner(s) actually took the car.

Anyway, thanks again for your help. Is there anything else I should check or do while I’m in there? How about bearings? As the diff has never been open they are also 200,000km “old”. But I’m not sure if I would be able to replace them myself and if I have the right tools to do it.

All the best from Down Under, Andre

 

[imp]

Hi Guys,

Thanks heaps for your help, tips and the offers to send parts over to OZ, really appreciate that. Sorry for my late response. I was busy working and earning $$ to invest in the X..

I might be able to get a used diff assembly from a car wrecker on Saturday for a reasonable price. I want to see it first but think it will be alright.

So far, I didn’t see any damages to the ring and pinion gears. I’ll have a closer look when I get differential out. I’ll clean the inside of the diff housing with break cleaner from the old oil and metal particles, thoroughly, before I get the replacement diff in to ensur all metal is out. I don’t have a chance to reach everything without removing the whole unit.

If the old oil caused the LSD to act more like an open diff, what could have caused the spider and side gears to slip over and grind off? I hardly use the car off-road. Sometimes, I drive on unsealed roads when going camping. Also, I never had to use the 4x4 switch, so it’s always in Auto. Therefore, there's no unusual stress on the drive train. However, I don’t know where the previous owner(s) actually took the car.

Anyway, thanks again for your help. Is there anything else I should check or do while I’m in there? How about bearings? As the diff has never been open they are also 200,000km “old”. But I’m not sure if I would be able to replace them myself and if I have the right tools to do it.

All the best from Down Under, Andre

Given the technical ability to remove and disassemble a differential, it is possible to replace bearings, L.S. clutch pack, differential gears, and even ring & pinion gears, but certain tools are really needed. They are: an adequately sized axle press, a large clam-shell type bearing "splitter" (sometimes called a puller, but has no forcing capability, used in conjunction with the press), various sized parallels to support the work piece, replacement locating shims for pinion and differential side bearings, patience, and attention to details.

Given the age of the unit, IMO replacement of all the bearings, if not the ring & pinion gears, is a must. Condition of the gear teeth is vitally important. Also important is the other mechanical aspects of the vehicle: is it economically sound to properly repair the differential, in view of the mileage? imp

 

[andre74]

Hi imp.
Thanks again for your reply. Unfortunately, I don’t have the tools (press, torque wrench, etc.) to do a rebuild and replace the bearings. And I agree with you in terms of the age of the car. Probably, I want to have it for another year or so, approx. 15k – 20k km. To get the car in a good condition, a lot of things would have to be done including all the joints, shocks, etc. and I still would have an old car after all. The only thing I want to do is replacing the other fluids. I rather save the money towards a new(er) car.

However, today I got a complete differential assembly delivered, meaning including housing. The car wrecker didn't want to take it apart. I haven't seen it before because I ordered via phone. I had a bit of pressure as I want to fix the car on Easter and the price was okay, too, compared to offers of other parts places. According to him, it has a mileage of 140k km.

Because I ordered a complete assembly, my plan was to just swap the whole thing. When I got it, it came with one axle only; the other one was taken out. The remaining axle had a drum brake, whereas, I have disk brakes. Because of that , I decided to open it and replace only the spider and side gears including the clutch disks. I removed the carrier from the housing and had no problems taking the gears out of the carrier. Would they just fit inside my differential? Or is there anything in particular I need to be aware of? If I do it that way, I still have the older bearings and seals (140k vs. 200k km).

The other possibility would be replacing the whole differential and reusing my axles. I know I need to be careful with the axle seals or better replace them but not sure I can get them during Easter.

What would be your recommendation? You may be shaking your head already and thinking...

Cheers, Andre

 

[imp]

However, today I got a complete differential assembly delivered, meaning including housing.
Because I ordered a complete assembly, my plan was to just swap the whole thing. When I got it, it came with one axle only; the other one was taken out. The remaining axle had a drum brake, whereas, I have disk brakes. This now becomes an area where I can only offer minor information, due to early Explorer inexperience. I have owned two 2nd. generations, '96 & '99, both having rear disks. I expect your replacement unit comes from earlier era, 1st. gen., which had drum brakes. You would need to check the similarity of the early axle housing ends, to see if they are identical to yours; if yes, your disks could be used on the replacement housing, with provision Ford did not change "track width", the distance between rear wheels. I cannot say whether early Explorers used the "8.8" Ford axle, but suspect yes, in which case your axles should be compatible wheel-bearing wise (outer bearings) with the older housing. Other members here having more direct experience, might be able to confirm/deny compatibility of 1st. gen and 2nd. gen axle housings. Above discussion based on use of the older, replacement housing.
Because of that , I decided to open it and replace only the spider and side gears including the clutch disks. I removed the carrier from the housing and had no problems taking the gears out of the carrier. Would they just fit inside my differential? Or is there anything in particular I need to be aware of? If I do it that way, I still have the older bearings and seals (140k vs. 200k km). Using the replacement unit's "guts" out of its differential would be the easiest way to go. Using your complete internal assembly, except its destroyed diff. gears, of course, in the replacement housing would require re-setting pinion bearing preload, ring & pinion backlash, and tooth contact pattern. So, leaving everything as-is in your original housing, cleaning out the entire unit as carefully as possible of all metal debris left inside (center housing as well as axle tubes), and inserting the replacement side gears, diff. gears, and clutch assembly in your original unit seems the easiest way, assuming compatibility of gears and diff. carrier. Check fit of side gears on your axle shaft splines before inserting the gears in the carrier.
The clutch pack itself is likely to no longer provide very much resisting torque for limiting slip given its age. No real consequence, unless you need L.S. for snow or slippery mud.

The other possibility would be replacing the whole differential and reusing my axles. I know I need to be careful with the axle seals or better replace them but not sure I can get them during Easter. First, gear ratio must be identical to your unit (assuming 4X4 use). Second, you have no prior knowledge of the condition of the ring & pinion gears and their bearings. Rotate pinion by hand, axles removed, noting carefully any roughness feeling, as well as bearing preloads: the gears should offer mild resistance to rotation due to preloads, but feel smooth while turning. Check condition of bearing surface on axle shafts, as I'm pretty sure these units ride the axle bearings directly on the shaft. Third, the issue of whether your disk brakes will mount identically on the replacement housing. Fourth, distance between spring "perches" must be the same: I do not know that 1gen and 2gen axles had identical spring mounting dimensions. Replace axle seals, if possible, regardless of which housing used.

What would be your recommendation? You may be shaking your head already and thinking... FWIW, I think I would opt for use of only the diff. parts in my old carrier and axle housing. Not shaking my head at all! Been there, done it, faced similar dilemmas. It's a bit of "educated guesswork", no doubt. Do let us know the direction and results of your work. Good luck! imp

Cheers, Andre

 

[bluestream1]

This link may be of some help. Its Mustang but the same Ford 8.8 rear end

http://www.corral.net/tech/drivetrain/gears.html

 

[andre74]

I’ve done it..

I went for the “big” job and swapped the entire differential, kept only my axles. I like the fact of having newer bearings and gears. Additionally, I found that the old ring and pinion gears had a much bigger backlash than those of the replacement, about 2mm vs. 0.5mm at the outer diameter of the ring gear. Further, I might’ve had problems with cleaning the housing, thoroughly, and the new housing had hardly any deposits and no visible metal particles. Now, I’m just hoping that the axle seals are tight. I couldn’t get replacements on the Easter weekend.

Further, I replaced the transfer case fluid, which was also quite black. The front diff is still pending. I need to collect information on how to get it out because I want to have a look inside as I expect similar conditions like inside the rear diff (hopefully not as bad).

On Monday, I took the car on an Easter trip/test drive of about 200km and everything seems fine and tight. I even think that the car seems to have more power; could be that it just runs smoother.

Finally, I have a remaining request. When I was under there to change the tranny fluid, I took of the tranny shift motor just because I was curious what it does. I found that it is only in action when switching from 4x4 high to low and return. I that okay? I expected that the transfer case shifted by the motor does something when switchin to either setting – auto, high and low. What actually changes in the drive train when switching from 4x4 auto to high? A short explanation what technically happens would be great. From the owner’s manual I know which setting should be used for a certain condition.

Many thanks again, Andre

 

[swashbuckler]

Finally, I have a remaining request. When I was under there to change the tranny fluid, I took of the tranny shift motor just because I was curious what it does. I found that it is only in action when switching from 4x4 high to low and return. I that okay? I expected that the transfer case shifted by the motor does something when switchin to either setting – auto, high and low. What actually changes in the drive train when switching from 4x4 auto to high? A short explanation what technically happens would be great. From the owner’s manual I know which setting should be used for a certain condition.

Many thanks again, Andre

My understanding is there's an electronically controlled clutch on the front driveshaft, that is open and not transmitting power until a) the computer detects a higher speed at the rear DS than the front diff (that's 4x4 "auto"), or b) you flip into 4hi or 4low at the switch.

 

[imp]

I’ve done it..

Finally, I have a remaining request. When I was under there to change the tranny fluid, I took of the tranny shift motor just because I was curious what it does. I found that it is only in action when switching from 4x4 high to low and return. I that okay? I expected that the transfer case shifted by the motor does something when switchin to either setting – auto, high and low. What actually changes in the drive train when switching from 4x4 auto to high? A short explanation what technically happens would be great. From the owner’s manual I know which setting should be used for a certain condition.

Many thanks again, Andre

The transfer case contains an "electronic clutch", more accurately, a magnetic clutch, which, when not energized, allows the vehicle to perform as though it were a 2WD. Set at "4X4 AUTO", the relative speeds between front and rear axles are monitored constantly, using the ABS sensors' signals. When no difference in speed exists between front & rear, the clutch remains de-energized. If rear wheels suddenly spin faster than the front, as hitting a patch of ice, or driving in snow or mud, the clutch is automatically energized to provide 4X4 drive until the speed difference is no longer detected. Occasionally, a rapid "on-off" of the clutch, due to repeated loss and regaining of traction, can cause a rather nerve-wracking "clutching and un-clutching" action. Thus....

"4X4 HI" and "4X4 LO" are provided as manual options, chosen by the driver. 4X4 HI or 4X4 LO both turn the clutch "on" constantly, eliminating sensing by computer. Neither should EVER be engaged on dry pavement, as with any 4X4 vehicle. Wet or slippery pavement, mud, or snow only.

Does this help? imp

 

[bluestream1]

Andre 74 Check this out, you can see the ball style clutch

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182071

 

[andre74]

Thanks for your info and the link.

I was just worried that the next thing has given up. But the rear diff and the transfer case are working fine, now. Soon, I'll have a look inside the front diff.

Cheers, Andre