SAS or IFS lift? | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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SAS or IFS lift?

umr_engnr

Member
Joined
July 2, 2018
Messages
23
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4
City, State
Olathe, KS
Year, Model & Trim Level
2000 Ford Explorer
So the previous owner did a torsion twist, 1" body lift, and trimming to fit 33" tires. There has always been vibration at highways speed and just general rough riding. I thought maybe the CVs were going bad, so I replaced with new NAPA (i.e. Cardone) axles. Now going around town it definitely feels "gravely" at all speeds. I figured something has to not be right. I jacked up the car last night and could only turn the front wheels a third of a turn. With a lot of force I could get it to continue but then it would bind again. I pulled the front driveshaft, and it was still doing it. Appears to be the CVs binding. They are at like a 45" angle so no wonder (4" or so drop from one end to the other).

Short term I'm going to try and back off the torsion twist and see if it improves. It sounds like the OEM axles, or even OEM remans are better than the "new" ones, which is disappointing.

Now I'm trying to figure out what to do. I want to keep the 33s and maybe even go to 35s. I'm just now trying to get into wheeling, and this is my daily driver. I'd like this vehicle to be more of an expedition style, but still be very trail capable. I'll be taking it to Moab from Kansas in a year, so it needs to be able to handle long highway cruises.

My current thoughts are either:
IFS lift: Superlift 4" lift and coilover conversion
SAS: Dana44 swap from a late 70s F150.

I'm interested in what others would do if in my position.
 



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I built a solid 609 for the front of my old Bronco after running 6" spring in the TTB and I drove to trails

A solid front axle allows articulation which allows for tougher trail wheeling and rock crawling. You put the left front tire up on a rock the solid axle is pushing down on the right and can get traction.
An independent front is better for tracking strait at speed and will still allow you to run most trails. The left tire smacks into a bump and is jarred while the right is still tracking. I like it better in a daily driver, it handles better at speed.

I found the difficult rock trails got old quick, someone breaks, gets stuck, then your sitting in an ugly rock canyon.....................................There is much fun and more beauty to be had on milder trails.
 






I jacked up each front wheel by the LCA last night (one at a time) and the CV didn't appear to be binding when I did that which surprised me. Full droop is still a problem. I'm definitely getting a lot of rough rolling and howling from the front end when driving. Wheel bearings are new. No front drive shaft. Happens when in neutral. Maybe it is still the CVs, but jacking the LCAs up reduced the angle enough compared to a normal distributed load.
 






I have the same issue with my 2000 Eddie Bauer. I've been told that the 95-97 CV joints are able to bend just a little more than the 98-00 joints. I haven't had opportunity to test this yet however. Next time I replace a CV joints I'll tell an it's for a 95 and see what happens.
 






You can't assess a CV's status by putting it into a bind, then trying to manually turn it.

Lifting the front off the ground anywhere but the Lower control arms, will force the wheels to go to full droop. The stopping point for them are the sway bar, shocks, or CV bind. One of them three will stop it from dropping any further. At this point the CV is, or is about maxed out (3" total up & 3" down travel), and it will be very hard to turn the wheel by hand. Lifting the wheel off the ground by the LCA hook stops the CV from binding, and is why they are there for a jack point.

In a 4wd with front CV's, a 2"-2.5" lift is the max you can safely crank on the torsion bars. You need to leave some room for travel so they don't fully bind. LCA's flat across on the underside is a "0" reading. The lift is measured at the outer end of the LCA by the ball joint, to the pivot point on the inside by the cross member.

As far as helping you decide on which style.... It's about $$, time, tools, and fab skills. If you have deep pockets, go for the SAS. If your on a budget, then here is some things to think about.

A front drop bracket lift only offers frame height lift, with no travel gains at all. Still have the same up & down measure of 3" each as before. Still have the same distance from the ground to the center cross member and axle. Still have the same distance between ground and the rear torsion bar brackets. All these really offer is to allow for a bigger tire, without trimming the fenders for 33", and minor trimming/ tupperware removal for 35" tires. It also raises the center of gravity. With a body lift and the drop bracket lift, you can clear 35's with no trimming. This really raises the COG.

Coil overs and a body lift will allow 33" tires without much trimming at all, the same as doing a TT & BL. With some trimming and some persuasion with a hammer, you can get 35's to clear at full stuff/turn.

Coil overs & a drop bracket lift with no TT, & no trimming, will fit 33" easy. Add a 2" crank adjustment on the coils, and 35's can be used.

SAS you can set however you want for lift. Bigger the tire, the bigger the axle used.

If you keep it as is, set the TT lift appropriately. If you remove the sway bar for wheeling you will get a smoother ride off road, BUT, you will need to install limit straps so you don't break a CV axle from too much droop and power applied to them simultaneously. The ride is night and day without the sway bar on. You have true IFS this way, and nothing is transferred from wheel to wheel by the sway bar connecting one side to the other. Straps HAVE to be set properly for this.

A SAS set properly will allow you to run HWY speeds and off road, while offering the best amount of articulation possible with larger tires. You also get more strength, better selection of shocks/coils, lockers, & axles/hubs to choose from. You no longer need a body lift this way too.

For half the cost of an SAS, you can use the drop bracket lifts, and coil overs, staying IFS.

For half the cost of that drop bracket setup, you can run coil overs, and trim for up to 35's.

For no cost, do a TT and trim as much as needed for up to 35's. Just remember your on a D35, and the larger the tire, the larger the gearing needed, pus the easier you need to be on the skinny peddle to avoid breakage.

What ever you decide, make sure every single suspension part, is top notch, and replace anything well used or old. this includes all the little bushings for these components, Bj's, TRE's, etc...

@traveler , the stock Motorcraft CV's, are the only ones that were different in collar size's, for the extra 1/2" of articulation with the 95-97 half shafts. The aftermarket units are the same for 95-01. This is "IF" they are still being made as they was in the past. I am noticing a lot of Motorcraft parts are now made in China, and some of these older standards might have changed. Need to cross reference part numbers to see if they are the same or not.

I personally run the IFS coil overs with 2" lift, and a 3" BL on 35" MT's. Deeper gearing, lockers, and deeper gear reduction case helps it tons. It's built for long distance trips across country,but it is also extremely good on trails. I have only a tiny bit of rub at full compression at full wheel lock. It is not a rock crawler. It can and has done it's fair share of playing in the rocks, but it's use was not intended for that. Long HWY cruising to get to Mild trails with the occasional hard obstacle to overcome is what it's built for. I like to camp in the middle of BFE that can only accessed in 4wd, on dirt / rock trails. Like up a Mountain, halfway down a mountain, then another trail to the next mountain climb. Click the Black Hole link in my signature below to see more. There are also a bunch of similar rigs like mine here in the registries to browse thru. Same goes for the SAS rigs.

Take your time, weight out all your options, then decide. I can tell you it is cheaper to make the choice to go as big as you can now, rather than a little lift here, and more lift down the road. Progression costs each time you change it. Gearing & tire size for each change, can add up to a few grand each time. ;)
 






Thanks @gmanpaint. That is really helpful, I was wondering what the "stock" or zero position was. I'll measure tonight, but I'm sure it is more than 2". How do coilovers improve your lift over TT? I would have expected both are limited by the 2" maximum over stock.
 






Thanks @gmanpaint. That is really helpful, I was wondering what the "stock" or zero position was. I'll measure tonight, but I'm sure it is more than 2". How do coilovers improve your lift over TT? I would have expected both are limited by the 2" maximum over stock.

They don't improve the lift as 2" is 2", no matter how you slice it.

Torsion Twist or commonly called a "TT", in a nutshell....

When you use the T-bars for lift, your forcing them to push down on the LCA's. This action has removed a lot of the spring in the metal, as that is what they are designed for, to twist with a spring memory in both directions. After the cranking of the bolt, you effectively made them a solid bar with hardly any spring to them. The twist is now turning the bar, and the ends in the lower arms are turning as a result. The more you turn them, the greater the angle the LCA has, pushing the ball joint end downward. You only have 3" up & down travel, but now you only have 1" as a result. The up travel is also greatly impeded, and you end up bouncing over things, as the T-bars fight to push downward. The ride becomes harsh as a result.

Some don't mind that harsh ride,and some do. Those that do mind, immediately think of buying better shocks to offset the jarring that is now happening. When I did the TT after first getting the rig, I hated the ride, got different shocks, but quickly realized it wouldn't change until that TT was undone. The result for me was, doing the coil over's. The best ride (even with coil overs) is for the LCA's to be flat across for equal up & down travel.

Coil over's improve the ride quality tremendously. Better all around in absorption and rebound rates, and improve cornering. Even when used for a 2" lift, the set up is leaps & bounds greater ride quality, then the cheapo freebie TT.

Going over a rutted road with a TT and "stock(ish)" type shocks can rattle your teeth out. With coil over shocks, you don't even hardly feel that same road. Stepping up to a higher end shock changes the game entirely. You can adjust and customize them, to your want's & needs.

I think I covered most of the basics here. Since a lot of people ask these questions, and I had a few minutes of free time, I just blurted all this out! lol Hope it helps you some, and the next person to come along searching for answers. :)
 






Great info. Much appreciated.

I just measured, and I'm 3" from horizontal on each side. I'm going to lower it an inch and see if that improves anything.
 






3" for 4wd is way too much. 2" max.

Your measuring with the wheels on the ground, and no lift on the vehicle correct?

Read up on how to do this properly please. There is a right, and a wrong way of doing this TT.

Your going to need an alignment right away after this also. Don't wait for this!
 






Yes, wheels on the ground. I just backed it off to 2". The previous owner had the torsion bar adjustment bolt all the way in. The ride is much smoother now. I'll be sure to take it in for alignment. Thanks for the help.
 






I have a 94, but tried several lifts before I went ahead and SAS'd it. It drives better on the highway than it has with any of the other lifts and TTB suspension, and it off-roads with the best of them. I can take it nearly anywhere I am stupid enough to go and it gets through. There are several SAS builds in the registry.
Solid Axle Swap Registry

Offroad Projects

It basically boils down to what you want. If I had to do it all over again, I would have ditched the TTB and gone SAS the first time instead of trying three different lifts first. It would have saved me a lot of money and time. I think my favorite thing about my SAS'd Explorer is how stable it is in uneven terrain. Before it used to be like a teeter totter. I have a 1976 high pinyon D44 out of a 1976 F-150 for a front axle with 14" coil over shocks. The axle is narrowed to Early Bronco width (6" shorter, still 3" wider than the OEM Axle).
 






you can get more than 2" out of it.... but it does make the ride more stiff.

i spaced out my factory shocks with some some over size nuts on the 2 bottom studs and 1 on the top stud, and i double up on the washer on the top side of the mount as i have ripped the shock out of the mount before offroad.... also added a longer bolt to one of the torsion bar adjusters and i have the stiffest bars(#1 i believe)

for the rear i have a procomp Add-a leaf, homemade shackles at 8.5" and 02 f250 4wd shocks with pin bar eleminators.

tires are 285/75/r16

setup works good for a daily, if i remove the sway bars like i had on my 2k ranger with a similar setup it will flex decent(even the front end)

also like to add, i have another stock 01 and it rides about the same to me..... (you can kinda see it in the background, its the fiancee rig)

sas and coil overs will net a better ride/ gets rid of the the weak aluminum front diff
 






jjust kinda showing what im talking about.
also i just run oreilly house brand reman cvs.... only busted them once on my 2k ranger, full lock and alot of wheel hop.



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SAS VS Independent front thoughts.............

Hmmmmmm, I wonder why the new bronco has an independent front if a solid axle is the poop? They will spank the Baja 1000 in it, that's why! Better go fast tracking and more suspension travel!

Parnelli Jones won it in an early solid axle Bronc, but that was a couple years ago...........

An X is not going to get any more travel with short stock "A" arms. I got 16" with TTB and man it could soak-up some whoops. It was a blast and then I moved from Arizona to Colorado and ran into tight crawling trails and went SAS.

I know there are very capable Explorer's but it would not be my choice for serious difficult trails. It's a bit long and for that reason I'd not put the time and effort into a SAS. I am done with that type of wheeling though and had my fun doing a SAS on my Bronc. Many thought and think a fullsize bronco is just to big.

Build for what you run but have fun, "Run what you brung!" I can't believe all the places I went in a 2 wheel drive Chevy Luv back when.
 






I wonder why the new bronco has an independent front if a solid axle is the poop?

Solid axles aren't the be all end all. Neither is an independent suspension. Independent is better, in my opinion, if money is no object. The issue, and the reason most rigs run solid axles, is that to get an IFS or IRS to be able to handle the sustained abuse that a solid axle can is exorbitantly expensive. For most people in most situations. There are super hard core IFS and IRS rigs (see ULTRA4), but obviously top race teams spend top money.

Mostly the reason for the independent front on the new Bronco though is that its built off of existing components for the most part. The whole idea is to be as profitable as possible, not as good as possible.
 






I love them all, they all have their place

Explorer Sports are the best wheelers of the bunch, that or a bobbed ranger. SAS or IFS is all about the terrain and drivers needs/ trucks use
 






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