Some parts salvage questions

[ootdega]

Hi, this is my first post here. I'm usually on GrandMarq.net, but you guys probably know more about this. I looked around and this is the most active and knowledgable place I saw.

I recently bought a 99 Mountaineer 5.0 AWD for $450. It's a salvage title, hit a tree and took out pretty much everything in front of and including the front frame. Engine is perfectly fine, electric fan looks like it should work too despite the power steering pulley digging into it.

I plan on taking the engine, transmission, ECM, wiring harness, fan, fuse box, rear brake backing plates, front seat air compressors, tires and center caps off of it. I will use all of these in my car later on.

The main thing I wanted to ask about is what I will need to know to remove the wiring harness. Mainly the engine and transmission harnesses, but other parts of it would probably be useful for the extra wiring. Everything else should be pretty straightforward, but any input would be appreciated.

It's currently at someone else's place, so I won't get too many cracks at it before I'll have to scrap it.

 

[1998Exp]

What vehicle will this power plant be going into? If you plan on transplanting the '99 Mounty power plant into another vehicle, you should get hold of the PCM (engine computer) and the harness that connects to it, EGR flow sensor (DPFE), and air intake tube with its MAF (air flow sensor) and temperature sensor. The PCM needs to know road speed, which in the '99 probably comes from the ABS sensor on the rear axle. Being OBD2, the '99 PCM will expect heated pre-cat oxygen sensors and post-cat monitoring oxygen sensors. The latter are not essential, but if not present, you'll get the annoying check engine light illuminated. The '99 Mounty will have PATS - passive anti theft system, and will not start without the proper key fob and, key sensing trasceiver and PATS control module. You may be better off reprogramming ("tuning") the PCM to get rid of PATS altogether, rather than making it work in a different vehicle.
You may be able to simplify things by using a pre-96 PCM instead, which is EEC4, but I don't know what gotchas to expect there.
There is probably much more to it than I can think of right now. Good luck!
Incidentally, I don't believe the '99 V8 had an electric fan - might have been an aftermarket modification.

 

[ootdega]

It's going into a 1989 Grand Marquis. I already know most of what I need to do to install it. I'll cover what I know of what you've mentioned.

-The ECM is another term for the PCM. I honestly don't know what the "P" stands for.
-The EGR is part of the intake manifold and will have to be switched to the opposite side to fit properly. Funnily enough, both vehicles use the exact same EGR sensor. Not that that's very important when I'm swapping the ECM.
-I'm going to take a 98 MAF sensor and put it in the 70mm Cobra housing I have. The housings are identical and it'll have the 4-pin connector. 99+ have a 55mm housing across the board.
-The ECM reads from a speed sensor in the tailshaft housing. I'll have to swap output shafts and housings when I get the transmission rebuilt, but the sensors are identical between the two. Both vehicles use the same type of speedometer gears, so that will swap right over.
-I plan on getting and using all relevant sensors. It shouldn't be too much trouble, I'll be changing the exhaust anyway.
-Pre-96 did not have the 5.0 engine as an option, but Wikipedia says PATS wasn't implemented until 98. I plan on tuning both the engine and transmission anyway though, so that shouldn't be a roadblock. It's good to know though.
-The electric fan isn't OEM, but it's nice to have it. I'll still be using a mechanical one (from a 351 Lightning) but it should still be useful. It does make me wonder what else has been done with it though. The odometer doesn't match the Craigslist ad, so assuming that wasn't a lie, it might mean he rebuilt it at some point.


The main thing I'm looking into is how to remove the engine and transmission harnesses from the donor. I have the wiring diagrams and shop manuals (for both vehicles actually), but I haven't opened them yet because I figure other people's prior input might make it easier to find what I need to know in those manuals.

 

[delexploder]

pull the ecm / pcm out of the fire wall lay it on the motor , unhook the harness from the body plug and a few connections in that area on the drivers side and then go underneath and the tranny harness is two big plugs that bolt together , unbolt it , pull the motor and its harness will come with it , same with the trans , the 99 will need a speed signal from the rear abs through the abs module , look very close at this , also 99 is non return fuel system , please post your build for us to see , we get alot of swaps into other vehicles and we always like to see new things

 

[ootdega]

That's a lot simpler than I thought it would be. Thank you.



In the case of the ABS, it looks like you're right. That is definitely good information, thank you.

RockAuto says one of the ABS tone rings are the same as the ones on the Crown Victoria from 92 to 2011. The rear axle shafts I bought to respline and put in the car when I convert it to 31 spline are from a 2010 Crown Victoria. So it looks like I will just need to keep those rings on the axles. If the rings are the same and I use the rear brake backing plates, then I shouldn't have any problems keeping them on there and making it work.

The snag is another post on the forum says the ABS on these is 3-channel, which means it would need signals from the front axles. I will also be changing the front brakes on the car, and to do that I will need wheel hubs from a 97-2002 Crown Victoria, which have ABS rings on them, and the spindles have mounts for the ABS sensors. I should still be able to make it work.

The listings on RockAuto both have 3.7 inch and 4.5 inch rings listed, and the rear axle rings I have do not measure 4.5, so I'm assuming those are for the front. The sensors for the rear are the same, but the front ones are different. I should be able to just splice some wires together to make that function.

Crisis...averted?



Looking at the fuel pump hanger, it looks like the car has a fuel return line. Will there need to be any significant changes if I use the fuel pump from the Mountaineer, or can I just cut that line off and weld it shut?



It's unfortunately going to be a long time before I get this project underway, but I will make sure to post it here when I do.

 

[ootdega]

...Wait, apparently the rear ABS ring is inside the differential.

I don't think these sensors do anything that isn't related to the brakes themselves. I'm pretty sure the transmission speed sensor is the only one that matters to the engine computer. The ABS sensors only matter to the ABS computer. They just tell it what the wheels are doing when you are holding the brakes.

 

[delexploder]

In the explorer the speed signal comes from the rear tone ring through the abs module for the speedo and the ecu , 99 up till 01 V8s have no speedo gear in the tranny or transfer case ,

 

[ootdega]

Well, there's no way whatsoever I can make that work. If I can't find a way to use one on the transmission, I can't use one at all. It would be virtually impossible to move that setup to anything else.

I find it hard to believe a sensor in the differential would have anything to do with the engine or transmission. That's a pretty ridiculous design. What a pain.

Would using an earlier year ECM work? Does it make a difference if it's a 2wd ECM or not?

EDIT: Well, it actually looks like the easiest solution would be to just drill a 0.811" hole in the car's differential housing and tap a bolt thread next to it. Problem is I have no idea if anyone would actually do that. I will ask around. It shouldn't be too much of a deal if I have both differentials.

Maybe. I dunno.

 

[delexploder]

the 96/97 V8 is a better choice for swaps , no pats, they were return fuel , used a speedo gear sensor in the tranny or transfer case , 2wd and awd both use the same computer and GEM as the transfer case is full time awd so Ford just treated both as 2wd, there are alot of swap threads on here including mine , check them out and you will see all the changes made during the life of the 96/01 5.0 explorer , 98 is the crossover year its a mix of the two and there is a late 97 that has gt40 p heads , external egr , and uses the later trans range sensor , 98 saw more changes then 99/01 are all like what you have

 

[CDW6212R]

Welcome, and the term PCM means Powertrain Control Module, and that applies to every make ever made, it means the engine/trans computer. ECM is a narrow term used by Ford, Mercedes has there term, GM etc. PCM applies to all makes.

What you want to do is swap to a non Explorer, and as explained is a huge problem given the VSS signal from 1998 to 2001. The 98 PCM requires the VSS signal coming from the Explorer ABS module, which conditions that rear diff/ABS signal. There is also a G-force sensor on the frame which is an input to the PCM for something. Many have begun swap projects before discovering these details.

The fuel system and PATS are trivial items, you can handle those. The deal is anyone swapping the Explorer 302 should avoid the 98-01 PCM system unless you like those headaches. Instead, use the 96/97 PCM's, there are two due to mid 97 changes. Mid 97 got the different P heads, and the EGR became external, but the EGR sensor signals should work with either for either PCM, I've been told.

The 98 models also got a new 4R70W range sensor, the DTRS. It's "digital" versus what's called analog prior to that, and the computer knows the difference. So the DTRS must match the PCM used. So you can use a later 4R70W in 96/97 PCM vehicles, but it must use the 97 DTRS and thus wiring schematics.

So for that 89 car, I'd get that 99 Explorer engine/trans/wiring/PCM etc, but leave the ABS etc. If the engine wiring is unhurt and you can get it out safely, it is still useful for other people doing Explorer swaps(V6/V8). That engine/trans harness is in there tight around the engine bay, it's a PITA to remove things to get to it all. The firewall is even tight against it. Removing the wiring would be the hardest part. Try to pull the engine with it all together.

You would need the wiring from a 96/97, I'm not sure if there is much difference from the late 97's, it would only be related to the EGR sensors. To use the Explorer PCM's, you have to use the Explorer front dress, all accessories, to include the balancer(crank trigger). You will need the fuel rails from a 96-98 Explorer, and the cam synchronizer(3 wires(99-01 have two wires(different PCM))). That's the big stuff, the rest is minor.

 

[delexploder]

yes the harness is different for the late 97 ( xdt2 ) pcm , it has a later style dtrs but the early case plug on the tranny

 

[CDW6212R]

yes the harness is different for the late 97 ( xdt2 ) pcm , it has a later style dtrs but the early case plug on the tranny

Say again, the late 97 uses the later DTRS? That would be good news to me, I had planned to use that XDT2 computer to run my Lincoln 347. I've been wondering what PCM differences occurred when the mid year changes were made. The pinouts for the PCM, from reports of others, matched. Is that wrong too, which it should be if the DTRS changed?

 

[CDW6212R]

Thanks Del, I've been juggling 2-3 planned projects which all will need different PCM's and wiring. My 99 V6 swap to a V8 is the only simple obvious deal. My Lincoln will have the 4R70W VSS output, so that's got to be the pre 98 computers. My old Ranchero if I get that far could be done the same way, so I planned to get two sets of the 96/97 parts. I only have one wiring harness(hell to remove at a JY), and two of those XDT2 PCM's.

 

[delexploder]

My 97 two door sport has a 99 motor and tranny that i swapped in with late 97 harness pcm and fuel rail, i had to repin the case plug for the later tranny ,

 

[CDW6212R]

Good, I have that same parts group to use. A trans expert I trust said that the computers that were used with the older range sensor had to have that matching sensor, but it could be used on any 4R trans. I didn't know that it seems the range sensor changed at the 97 mid year point. That's another detail which is hard to find and remember, along with so many other details. I'm glad we type/right this stuff down every once in a while.

 

[boominXplorer]

I am running the late 97 XDT2 wiring and computer in my Ranger with a 98 trans. Only plug that doesn't cross on the trans was for the valve body like Del said.

 

[CDW6212R]

That's excellent.

 

[ootdega]

Welcome, and the term PCM means Powertrain Control Module, and that applies to every make ever made, it means the engine/trans computer. ECM is a narrow term used by Ford, Mercedes has there term, GM etc. PCM applies to all makes.

What you want to do is swap to a non Explorer, and as explained is a huge problem given the VSS signal from 1998 to 2001. The 98 PCM requires the VSS signal coming from the Explorer ABS module, which conditions that rear diff/ABS signal. There is also a G-force sensor on the frame which is an input to the PCM for something. Many have begun swap projects before discovering these details.

The fuel system and PATS are trivial items, you can handle those. The deal is anyone swapping the Explorer 302 should avoid the 98-01 PCM system unless you like those headaches. Instead, use the 96/97 PCM's, there are two due to mid 97 changes. Mid 97 got the different P heads, and the EGR became external, but the EGR sensor signals should work with either for either PCM, I've been told.

The 98 models also got a new 4R70W range sensor, the DTRS. It's "digital" versus what's called analog prior to that, and the computer knows the difference. So the DTRS must match the PCM used. So you can use a later 4R70W in 96/97 PCM vehicles, but it must use the 97 DTRS and thus wiring schematics.

So for that 89 car, I'd get that 99 Explorer engine/trans/wiring/PCM etc, but leave the ABS etc. If the engine wiring is unhurt and you can get it out safely, it is still useful for other people doing Explorer swaps(V6/V8). That engine/trans harness is in there tight around the engine bay, it's a PITA to remove things to get to it all. The firewall is even tight against it. Removing the wiring would be the hardest part. Try to pull the engine with it all together.

You would need the wiring from a 96/97, I'm not sure if there is much difference from the late 97's, it would only be related to the EGR sensors. To use the Explorer PCM's, you have to use the Explorer front dress, all accessories, to include the balancer(crank trigger). You will need the fuel rails from a 96-98 Explorer, and the cam synchronizer(3 wires(99-01 have two wires(different PCM))). That's the big stuff, the rest is minor.

Well see, that's even more of a convoluted mess. Insane, to be quite honest.

The G-Force sensor is only used to determine whether or not the vehicle is still moving. It's only used by the ABS module. Irrelevant.

If the rear VSS is the only significant snag, I can deal with that. I can take both differentials to a machine shop and ask them to replicate the sensor hole. The shape of the housings will be a little different, but it shouldn't be a big deal, especially if both are fully assembled with reluctor gears. Simple task, just need someone who knows what they're doing. And then I can use the VSS hole on the extension housing for the speedometer gear, so I won't need any more of a convoluted mess dealing with the speedometer. Just need a 16-tooth gear and an output shaft with a drive gear on it.

That would also mean I can leave the interior wiring alone. The dash does need rebuilt, but I'd rather not make things more complicated than they have to be.

Also, it will be much easier to remove things with the condition the Mountaineer is in. The front is smashed, so I'm just going to cut it off. Detach anything directly connected to the vehicle and just pull the whole assembly out the front.

 

[CDW6212R]

You can use the trans for the VSS signal, that's the same thing as the diff/ABS sensor we have. The problem is that the PCM is not looking for that signal, it's expecting something different which comes from the ABS module, where the VSS wire leads to on 98-01 Explorers. I/we don't know how it's different, just that someone came here with a Volvo and couldn't get the VSS signal to work properly run directly to the PCM. He left out the ABS, and the people he consulted with didn't know what to tell him to do. That was 1-2 years ago, I can't recall if he had it running but with trans codes, or what it ended up being.

It's simpler to use the computer which does not expect the ABS module to be there to condition the VSS signal. If you can figure out how to make the 98-01 computers accept the VSS signal, please let us know. That would make it easier for others to use those parts to swap into non-Explorers.

 

[ootdega]

I am told one can just tune the ECM to use a tailshaft VSS.

EDIT: Looked into it with some black belt Google-fu and it looks like that's true. Tuning software can easily change the sensor location in the ECM.