Tell me the best way to fix my problem. Money is of no concern. (Electrical Issues)

[Blacksheep Josh]

I've gone through another alternator. Here is why.

I have a subwoofer setup that puts out nearly 1600 watts (max is estimated, I know that the RMS output is 750 watts). But I've done the math, take a look:

Assuming my system is at 14.4v, the alternator is a 130amp alternator:
130amp x 14.4v = 1,872 watts of power that the alternator is putting out.

So 1,872 watts is what my alternator is making, and if the subwoofer system is putting out near 1,600 watts, I'm guessing this is what's causing me to go through alternators so fast. Remember to, this alternator was installed shortly after New Years.

So, I call out to all Explorer Forum electrical gurus, what do I need to do in order to keep from running into this issues? Whether it be batteries, dual alternators, high output alternators, wiring, battery isolators, I don't care about money anymore, but I dont' want to break the bank.

In the future I'll be running 4 subwoofers, each capable of handling 400 watts rms and 800 watts max. Also 2 amps, putting out 700 watts rms and the max output unknown.

So I'll be running:
2 - http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jJbZOd...ord-Fosgate-Punch-700S.html?tab=detailed_info
4 - http://www.crutchfield.com/S-n8sWYeFiuFM/p_2067C12VR4/Kicker-CompVR-07CVR124.html

I'm also looking for door speaker amps, but I haven't decided yet. But it'll be about 400 watts max. Just give me your opinions, I've thought about a dual alternator setup but I'm just not sure. I need your help.

 

[IZwack]

- Get someone to fabricate a PTO tap that will go in between the Transfer case and the Transmission (which I can do for a simple $7,500 since money is obviously of no concern)
- Install an RPM controller to the engine
- And hook up a PTO generator
- BAM!

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200308467_200308467

Or you can run an RV generator :
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...00355714?cm_sp=Xsells-_-Manual-_-Product Page

Or a trailer mounted one:

I vote that you go with the trailer mounted one.

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Thanks Iz lol.

I know you changed your post about 3 times or so, I liked the silent Honda generator idea...

 

[grant00]

i say high output alternator..... a friend had an FI audio 18" in his RSX with over 2000 watts at least (think it was more around 5000, max that is, 2500 is RMS) worked not so good before the HO alternator and perfect after. pertty simple too. just get lower gauge wire with all of it.

 

[BrianDye]

Hm, that doesnt sound right that you'd be eating through alts like that...

In my old 92' Eddie, they replaced the higher (190?) or whatever amp it was alternator with a stock explorer alt, and I was running a small kinetik battery, 4 gauge wiring, and a 1600w RMS amp, pusing 2 15" L7's and always had it cranked, had the system in there for over a year, plus my aftermarket lights, HIDs, heat or AC blasting, etc etc, and same setup is now in my 95, and has been for about 2 months now, at even higher capacity, because I figured out a few tricks with my amp,


I might just be stupid, but it seems like something else is going on, not just being your subs killing alt's

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

I'm open to any ideas on what to check... but I've literally tried everything I know of to try... The latest alternator I had was a Reman through Autozone... so possibly the diodes were worn/old anyways and weren't replaced in the remanufacturing of it.

When I installed the alternator, I went for about 7 days without playing the system and it was rock solid. I just can't think of anything else other than my system killing it...

One other thing I'm worried about though is the initial amp draw when I turn the amp on. I have the amp's remote wire wired through a switch so I can turn it off when I don't need it or if I see a cop... When I turn the switch on, it'll go from it's "normal" position on the gauge (between A and L) all the way to N and flick back... I'm thinking this initial draw might be hurting it as well... such huge dips.

Like I said, I'm open to trying and checking anything people will throw out there though. First thing I'm going to do, is replace the ENTIRE alternator wiring loom with better wire to make sure that's in good condition...

 

[rhauf]

I've found that the weak link in alternators is usually the 3 Diodes, they can not dissipate enough heat to handle full output for more than a couple minutes. (rated output on alt's seems to be surge rated, not sustained)

my recommendation would be, take one of the alternators, and hook up 3 heavy gauge wires to the stator where the diodes would normally go. then, run those wires to some *very* high powered diodes mounted somewhere else, with exceptional cooling (heat sinc and fan cooled) you can even run them in parallel to double/triple etc they're power handling.

check these out..
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/1N1190A/40-AMP-600-VOLT-RECTIFIER/-/1.html

3 of these for example (one per connection from the stator), would provide 120 amps properly cooled.. 30 of these (10 per connection) would provide 1200 amps... and so-on and so-fourth. i just found these with a quick google search i'm sure you can find some more powerful ones if you look around a bit.

if you didn't want to mound them to a heat sinc and fan, you could probably mount them to you're frame rails.. those would absorb a ton of heat.

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Is this even possible? I don't want to do something that's going to cause more problems down the road but I'm definitely interested. It says "stud mounted" so does that mean you'd drill a hole and mount it in somewhere like that? I just don't get where the electricity "would come out in DC" if that makes sense?

Rhauf, was this just a random idea, or have you done this before? Cause the diode is definitely where I've had problems the most. If I could do this, and split the load so that I have BETTER diode's with less energy going through them I'd feel better. My only concern would be where to mount them to get proper cooling, I saw you mentioned the frame rails, but what about when it rains? Would rain affect them (the whole water and electricity thing)? Or would they be covered up somehow?

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Rhauf, I'm interested in this. I have a spare alternator (bad diodes) I'd be willing to crack open and see if I could make this work. If you could explain how to mount the part you listed and all I'd be willing to try it. Even if I could just wire it up so the 130 amps my alternator is possible of making would be properly cooling down as it's going through the diodes I'd be happy.

 

[rhauf]

Inside an alternator in stock form, (if I'm not mistaken, from the best of my memory) the diodes are grounded to the case, when the voltage goes negative it conducts, this is how a diode works (when the voltage is negative/conducting, it's positive at the other end of the stator's windings where you're battery charge wire is connected)

in a stock alternator, there are sometimes stud mounted diodes similar to this... so with this system, you could ground them to the frame rails, in fact they would ground on their own through the mounting, i believe this i show they work..

this is an idea i came up with just now.. but I'm quite confident it'll work just fine, ive done a bit of electronic design on a hobby level (mostly audio related) built amp's, active crossovers, powered mic's, and even the circuitry for some kinetic art for an artist i know.

anyway, moisture could possibly be a problem after an extended period of time just due to electrolysis eroding away at the terminals. but you could seal them up in a glob of silicone to prevent this if they were in a potentially moist location.

Ohh, one thing about diodes which i missed before, when calculating their heat dissipation (the wattage rating of them) calculate for 0.6v at (x) amps no matter what voltage you think they're running, they drop exactly .6v always. so 100 amps would only be 60 watts of dissipation (20 per each of the 3 diodes) regardless of the voltage output.

 

[Mbrooks420]

Is this at least the 3rd alternator? If this was just the second (which it doesn't sound like it is) I would suspect a bad reman. Who knows what cheap parts they used in remanufacturing, and there is always "technician" error. While the external diode mod sounds bad ass, I'd call a local electrical motor/starter/alternator shop and see what they say. They may be able to build your failed one with better parts. If your worried about the initial draw add a second battery. I'd add a second battery anyways, since you want to do this right.

 

[agonz91]

I'm not sure what's wrong w/ ur alt. But I do know that if u do a big 3 upgrade ur voltage will increase. I ran 4 12" cvr's on a 1950rms amp and it did fine, well I had a kinetik hc2400 hooked up. And as of right now I'm running a single 18" Fi BTL w/ a kicker zx 2500.1 and 2 kinetik hc2400's my volts idle @ 14.8 on stock alt and no big 3 upgrade.

 

[rhauf]

I'm not sure what's wrong w/ ur alt. But I do know that if u do a big 3 upgrade ur voltage will increase. I ran 4 12" cvr's on a 1950rms amp and it did fine, well I had a kinetik hc2400 hooked up. And as of right now I'm running a single 18" Fi BTL w/ a kicker zx 2500.1 and 2 kinetik hc2400's my volts idle @ 14.8 on stock alt and no big 3 upgrade.

14.8 volts at idle for a few minutes after startup is normal... but if it holds this voltage indefinitely, it will overcharge you're battery.

battery float voltage is 13.8 volts. this means it can have 13.8 volts put to it indefinitely without fail.

battery max charge voltage is 14.4... this is how much it can handle until it is fully charged (at which point it will begin to get hot, boil and destroy itself slowly)

it's not about more voltage, it's about more available amperage (not saying you're upgraded alternator doesn't provide more amperage as well) but if after 20 minutes of running, it's still at 14.8 volts, I'd be weary of the regulator.

 

[agonz91]

14.8 volts at idle for a few minutes after startup is normal... but if it holds this voltage indefinitely, it will overcharge you're battery.

battery float voltage is 13.8 volts. this means it can have 13.8 volts put to it indefinitely without fail.

battery max charge voltage is 14.4... this is how much it can handle until it is fully charged (at which point it will begin to get hot, boil and destroy itself slowly)

it's not about more voltage, it's about more available amperage (not saying you're upgraded alternator doesn't provide more amperage as well) but if after 20 minutes of running, it's still at 14.8 volts, I'd be weary of the regulator.

Well ya it drops to about mid 13v when I'm drivin around bump. But when I'm stopped and not reving the engine it'll drop to mid to high 12v. So I have pretty decent volts lights don't dim at all when I get a new alt I'm hoping for over 15v idle and mid 14v when its cranked.

 

[bill32399]

I ran 4 12's with a high output alt. I also installed a high idle kit to bump the rpm's if it gets low.

 

[jrowe6]

i got a bit into this one....

that amp may put out a maximum of 1600 watts. but never ever ever is it going to be drawing that kind of power from the batt/alt. you have to understand that the amps limited to a certain input flow rate and also a certain output flow rate.

your amp will never get the chance to draw more amperage than its fuse rate. the fuses would blow! the amps maximum output is a burst rate. it can put out 750watts allllllll the time. non stop 750 can always flow out. for a brief burst it can hit a very maximum of 1600watts. then it would need to "refill" its reserve power before it could do that again. the duration of the burst is limited to its power reserve capacity. the amp has its own internal capactors, when they are depleted it cant push any harder than the total power its taking in.

the maximum input flow rate and the rms output are a closely linked number, the max input being slightly higher than the rms output, so it has enough to recharge those capacitors for the next burst.

and no, an external capacitor wont make your amp put out a higher maximum or a higher rms. it will just make sure the input flow rate is always at the maximum for the amp. which is totally useless if you have proper wiring and a strong alternator.

if you are buying reman alts i suggest you get a brand new one next time. i have had a system in my x the whole time i have owned it, 4 years(i installed the system the day i brough ut home), and have replaced the alt one time, but went through two alts.

the alt that was in the truck was the original, it had a bearing fail this past summer so i replaced it. i could have just replaced the bearing, but i decided to replace my stock 95 amp alt with one of the 130 amp alts. so i went and bought a reman from napa and i destroyed that alt the very first day. i think the diodes blew out or something, it went from working 100% to not working at all, literally 0 volts. i went back and demanded a brand new one. it has been in the truck for about 8 months now. lifetime replacement warranty on it. point is, i have had zero trouble with the new one.



i will explain the input/output with an example using water.

you have a 5 gallon bucket with a valve at the bottom. the bucket is being filled by a garden hose at a rate of 10 gallons per minute maximum. lets say the valve can drain the bucket in 30 seconds if it is 100% open. that means in 30 seconds it drained the 5 gallons in the bucket as well as another 5 gallons from the hose that is filling it. so 10 gallons in 30 seconds, which is a 20 gallon per minute rate. when the bucket is empty it is only flowing as much as it can take in, which is 10 gallons per minute. the thing is, if you ever want to refill the bucket you have to close the valve a little. so if we want the bucket to be full again in a minute we need to close the valve so it only flows 5 gallons per minute, or some value less than 10 gallons per minute.

so, the 10 gallons per minute is our maximum input rate, 20 gallons per minute is our max burst output. and 5 gallons per minute is the rms output. this is obviously a very rough representation, and all numbers and ratios are totally arbitrary. i just wanted to try to paint a vague picture for you so you can better understand. i am no picaso

 

[rhauf]

i agree with you that with normal music listening, an audio amp (even one with 1600 watts) would deliver average output power much lower than that (probably 2 or 3 watts average in most cases as power consumption is exponential as decibels increase)

however, i get the idea that he runs his system at full tilt (music with highly compressed, continuous bass) for extended periods of time, just to show/show off the system.. in this case it is possible that it could be running at nearly its full RMS power output continuously. and in fact, drawing more amps than it's putting out (the amp does have some losses thats why they get hot)

it doesn't matter though, one way or the other he's drawing too much current for the alternator and blowing it up, so it has to be upgraded

 

[Verno]

Decided I needed to chime in too!
Josh here is a better idea, buy a freakin hearing aid and you won't need to put out so much that you're heard up here in Tennessee while you are wheelin in Ga! J-K
My bet is get a NEW alt (130 amp)

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

Well I took back my alternator, got another reman one... disconnected the entire system. I went with reman at the time (last month) because money was tight and I needed something that was cheap and would work fine.

Explain to me how many EXTRA power I need coming from the alternator to be safe. Ignore the fact I have a reman one, if I was going to have a sound system that maxed out at... let's say 3700ish watts (3200 from subs, 500 for door speakers)... What would be the best setup for me to have?

For the guy who ran 4 12's, he talked in another post that his voltage would drop to mid 12's... that's what I'm trying to avoid. I know I can't expect a no voltage drop with that much power, but I'm trying to avoid as much voltage drop as possible...

If I added more batteries, like the Kinetik batteries mentioned before, would that ease the load on the alternator? I know if I use power it has to be replaced, but it'd have a much 'larger' source of power (3 batteries to draw from instead of 1 let's say)...

I just want to know, if I have a system that'll be maxing out around 3700 watts or so, what would the best strategy be to avoid as much voltage drop as possible?

 

[jrowe6]

what im saying is the maximum amperage an amp will draw is limited by the fuses. so if you have a 500 watt rms amp with two 30 amp fuses that amp cannot draw more than 60 amps from the electrical system. max output watts is an irrelevant number.

more batteries will not help. batteries are good if you want to bump for an hour in a parking lot without the engine on. but that will not help the alt when it comes to continuous maximum output for long periods of time. its actually usually a bit harder on the alt because if you are drawing more amperage than the alt can supply the system is drawing off the batteries and so the alt is always pushing as hard as it can trying to charge the bateries and power the system at the same time. once the car is running the alt should be powering everything pretty much 100%

750 rms is 52 amps, yes rhauf there are losses that is true. so lets just estimate the amp is drawing 70 amps. if you have a 130 amp alt that leaves 60 amps for everything else.

if you are going to get a bigger sub setup and a high powered 4 channel amp you might as well upgrade to the biggest single alt you can find. there is a thread dedicated to performance alts. you should be able to get atleast a 200 amp alt. and those are built very tough. it would be built to put out 200 amps ALL the time and last. get one of those.


what happened to money is of no concern