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They are now calling the Explorer Extinct!

I live about 8 miles from the Ford Explorer plant in Louisville, KY. They have gone from having a HUGE lot full of Explorers built and ready to ship to a handful in the corner.

The plant is now shutting down on all but 1st shift, putting a whole bunch of people out of work.

They plan on re-tooling the plant to build CARS.

C-ya, Explorers :salute: Goin the way of the Early Bronco...
 



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It has taken Brazil over 30 years to be almost energy independent. They started in the 70's after the first crisis, they will reach the goal once they do get their current ocean oil drilling up and running. We can do it faster of course, but no one should think that the answer is going to fix the current gas prices.

The new refineries have been avoided mainly because of their cost, and oil supplies which they have access to. They do not build refineries for oil in Alaska which they cannot touch. The same goes for all of the oil in our coastal regions, and the shale oil in Colorado. It's all off limits right now, most by two laws, both a state and federal law.

They are in business, and based on their projections of oil supplies(reserves), building new refineries would lose them money. It takes a certain number of years just to pay for building one. If oil ran out before then, why would they build that refinery?

As for them drilling etc. in places where they have drilling rights, I gather that the same analysis has stopped them. Why spend millions on a well when the final result could be a loss of money. They make projections on how much will come out of a well, versus the cost of the well. That is for all drilling, when a well turns up nothing or very little, that loss goes into the projections of all of the drilling.

Thus I think that they are in business, and if drilling anywhere would make money for them, they would be doing it. These are Americans who deal in freedom of their business in our free economy. Any country run oil company might do something stupid like drilling and losing money. I doubt that many independent businesses will do that on purpose.

The bottom line is simple, still. Drill where the oil is, drill where it is easier/cheaper/safer to get. Don't waste time or money on other places. Fortunately that is the way our economy does work, when it is allowed to. The government is responsible for the massive road blocks stopping oil companies, including making it unfeasible to build a refinery. They don't need the government to force them to do something. They need the government to get out of the way, and allow them to do what they do best. That is the fastest way to improve fuel prices.

P.S. Jeff, my comment about "whining" and most of what I wrote was about millions of others, not you.

Don, thank you for clarifying. I wish the talking heads would make arguements as eloquently as you are. They all complain that it is government regulations preventing new refineries because of environmental regulations. What they really mean is that we don't want to spend the money to build things responsibly.

The source of my anger is that there is a lot of greed out there in corporate America and the politicians (R AND D) in their pockets. I totally agree with your signature talking about a fair tax and supporting American workers. Were I disagree slightly is that I'd rather buy a Toyota built by an American worker paid a fair wage than buy a Ford built in Mexico. Yes, buying a Ford keeps the profits in America, but only the main stockholders and the CEO's reap the results. If I buy a Toyota built by an American, I know there is one less American out of work. And one more American who can afford to support dozens of small businesses in his home town. Those business owners than spread the wealth again.

But back to fossil fuels, I totally agree that there isn't a quick solution. But in corporate America's greed, they always want to take the easy way even if in the long run its not for the best. They'd rather risk destroying pristine areas than use their minds or come up with a solution to drill in a more difficult area. The same with our automakers. We could, right now, increase fuel efficiency. But that will require real work and commitment. Something most companies are unwilling to do.

This country scares me right now. There is so much greed and self-centered behavior. Another topic totally, but our lawmakers are an embarasment when it comes to the treatment of our troops. The Republicans will wrap themselves in flags and plaster their cars with yellow ribbons, and the Democrats will whine about ending the war and supporting our troops that way, but neither are willing to do anything to ensure our veterans get the care and benefits they were promised.

But back to our beloved dying breed of vehicles. We were once a country that could do anything it wanted without the help of another country. Those people were the greatest generation. Our generations today aren't worthy to wash the greatest generation's jocks for the most part. Once we put aside the greed and the partisan crap, maybe we can fix some stuff and be able to go wheeling in solid axle, rip snorting 4x4s that get 75 miles to the gallon.
 






Do you guys know about Explorer Forum's sister website? www.drivingmeinsame.com is where a lot of these type of arguments get hashed out, so you might want to carry a political discussion over there.

On the topic of "big oil" and what to do with the cost of fuel, however, there are a couple of things that we need to consider. For instance, it is oil companies -- yes, for profit -- that have made it possible for us to stop at a station that they have built, pull up to a pump that they have installed, and fill up our tanks with fuel that they have found, processed, shipped, and provide. I don't see our government providing an equal service... I also don't see environmentalists providing an equal service.

So, at the end of the day -- for me at least -- I see oil companies as an ally in my life versus an enemy. They deserve to make a profit for the service they provide, and the more profit they make, the more service they will provide up to the point where the consumer stops utilizing that service because they cannot afford it any longer.

I'm thinking that we're at that point right now, for the use of fuel has dropped radically, and the oil companies themselves, in their desire to continue profitable levels of operation, will figure out a way to lower prices to keep on selling their product.

A couple of other thoughts...

We cannot "grow" our way into energy independence. We need our farm land for food production, and even if we used every acre for fuel crop production, we would still not even make a dent in the actual amount of fuel we used in the USA every day. But meanwhile, food costs would go through the roof, more than offsetting what it costs to fill our tanks. We can live with less driving, but we cannot live without food! We are already going to see a RADICAL shift in food costs this year. In my local Kroger, smallish bags of lettuce are now selling for over $5. They were under a dollar a little while ago. We used to get sweet corn at between $1 and $2 a dozen -- now it is 2 ears for $1. Yet, I see corn being pumped through fuel processing plants all over the mid-west.

People cite Brazil, yet they fail to recognize that Brazil is cutting down the Amazon jungle to make room for fuel crops. For the sake of their own nation's energy independence, they may be sacrificing one of the most important ecological systems in the world.

Additionally, while oil companies are making windfall profits from oil, so is the government. Our government makes much more profit per gallon of gas than the oil companies do, and the government doesn't do a single thing to actually put a drop of gas in your tank (except to so tightly regulate drilling and refineries that getting MORE oil to the tank is almost impossible). But, even here there is a trade-off. If we buy less fuel, there are less $$$ going into the coffers that provide funds to repair roads and bridges. Somehow it always ends up back in the lap of the citizen.

Finally, the biggest reason for the current price rise is speculation -- called "futures" in market lingo. People are buying up the rights to oil production and reselling those rights at a profit. That is where the BIG BUCKS get turned. The way to bust the futures market, which seemingly cares little for the man on the street, is to simply make a resolution to drill any and every pocket of oil, build new refineries, etc., on American soil, which will drop the bottom out of the speculation market almost immediately. Those that say that it would take 10 years or more to make a difference don't understand market economy at all -- it isn't having gas at the pump that drives futures, it is the threat of lowering demand. No one wants to hold a whole bunch of paper on oil that will soon be worth only half of what they paid for it!

Until some of the stuff above starts to happen, our nation will be radically changed, and even when it happens, we'll never go back to the way it was before. And, in the mean time, we're likely to elect some folks, based on PROMISES that they will NEVER be able to deliver that will only make the situation worse, not better.
 






I agree that this has gone full blown DMI. I think your point in the last paragraph says it all though. It doesn't matter whether it's McCain, Obama, Barr or Nadar, none of them have the testicular fortitude to risk being a one term president to make the very hard choices when it comes to energy.
 






...
People cite Brazil, yet they fail to recognize that Brazil is cutting down the Amazon jungle to make room for fuel crops. For the sake of their own nation's energy independence, they may be sacrificing one of the most important ecological systems in the world....

Finally, the biggest reason for the current price rise is speculation -- called "futures" in market lingo. ... Those that say that it would take 10 years or more to make a difference don't understand market economy at all -- it isn't having gas at the pump that drives futures, it is the threat of lowering demand. No one wants to hold a whole bunch of paper on oil that will soon be worth only half of what they paid for it!...

Agreed, I do worry that Brazil doesn't go to far with their rain forests. We need to stop using any corn for fuel, that was the government's doing, and the cause for most food prices now.

I also think that planned oil production here would do the most good in the short term. It wouldn't happen as fast as people might think or like, but years faster than waiting for the government, or alternative fuels.

BTW, vehicle sales in the US is relatively steady and predictable. For any given number of vehicles made in the US, an American will have built them. What bothers me the most is people buying the Asian vehicle thinking that there is no difference, or it helps American jobs. As more are bought from Toyota, they increase jobs, while another American company(Ford) lays off jobs. The american jobs for plants in America stays the same. The real important choice is to select the vehicle made by the American company, they will hire more people to offset those lost by the Asian companies. The opposite is true, but in every case the money for the Asian vehicle all goes to Asia, no matter where it is made. Regards,
 












My dead cold hands will have to be ripped from the stearing wheel. I will never give my Northface up!

Then I highly recommend that you get VERY involved with the current political campaign. Our next President and Congress are going to decide if you continue to drive your "gas guzzling" SUV or "modified vehicle" or not... :thumbdwn:

I'm not even going to name any candidiates here -- I'll save that for DMI -- but there are differences between the candidates that bear investigation. Promises have consequenses come election day, and some of the promises to "fix" the energy crisis and cost of fuel include limiting YOUR CHOICE of vehicle.
 






No one in government is going to stop you from driving your explorer. What they might do is make it even more expensive by taxing you more for it, and you may not be able to replace it.

I have noticed more new big SUVs (paper plates) around here lately, there apparently are people who can afford the gas that are taking advantage of the
deals available. Not enough to keep the plants open, though.

One theory I heard is that as gas prices continue up and consumption drops,
eventually the oil company profits will start to drop, and they are afraid of the
possible trends to alternative fuels and electrics. At some point they are likely to drop prices again to what they consider the "breaking point" where they have good profits but the price is low enough that people resume their "normal" driving habits.
 






Oil companies make the least amount of money(profit) per dollar than any industry. They will not lower their profit margin one bit, ever by choice. If the government takes(steals) any more money from them, they will go out of business. If that could possibly happen, the government would be forced(just like the housing market), to bail them out(buy them out(take over)).

The oil companies make just over 7% in profit right now. Do the math, if they received the entire $4 that you pay for a gallon, that means that they would get 32 cents of it. Since the price you pay is not what they sell it for(retailers mark it up also), then the oil company may be getting more like a quarter per gallon.

If the oil company gets 25 cents per gallon in profit, how much do you thin that they could drop the price and not go out of business? By the way, what about the government who taxes them about $1.50 per gallon for corporate income taxes? That is besides the federal/state/local gas taxes of almost 50 cents per gallon(federal is 18.5 cents).

Stop blathering on about oil companies, they have developed our fuel infrastructure and have the lowest profit margin of almost all businesses. The problem is the government, it always has been. Regards,
 






I think all sides of this are getting a bunch of misinformation. Me included. The last thing I'll say is that the whole govt. is screwed. The Republicans go on continuing tax breaks and both sides claim they want to move to alternative fuels, and yet they are continually reducing (REDUCING!!!) the tax incentives for people to buy alternatively powered vehicles and give manufactures no incentives to produce them. :wtf:

As for the topic at hand, we'll always have our beloved Explorers. No offense to the Gen 3 and Gen 4 guys, but they haven't made a good off-road ex in nearly 10 years.
There will always be dino juice to keep them running and we'll always have parts for them, even if we have to fabricate them ourselves. Shoot, I'll bet in 10 years that there will be a reliable engine swap available that makes us dino free if we so desire.

So are real SUVs dead? Not a chance. Owning one may intially become more costly, but maybe, just maybe, the manufacturers will be compeled to give us real options when it comes to powering them. And... big oil, big agriculture, big WHATEVER will start creating the infrastructure to go along with it.
 






Ditto, let's agree that we will continue no matter what. Okay, who knows how to play Tetris? Haven't done that in 25 years.
 






Ditto, let's agree that we will continue no matter what. Okay, who knows how to play Tetris? Haven't done that in 25 years.

DON"T DO IT! Once you get started, you'll find yourself staring bleary eyed at the screen and the beginnings of carpal tunnel. :confused:

If you ask me, I think Tetris was designed as some sort of cyber-espionage to beat us in the cold war. :p:
 






Yeah, God forbid conservatives would actually be asked to conserve natural resources and take personal responsibility for living to excess.

It actually is possible to have efficient SUVs and renewable energy that we don't have to kiss some Saudi's @$$ for. But that would require effort and investment in the United States. I'm sorry, what am I thinking. That might require American companies to hire AMERICANS again.

I will use as much natural resources as I damn well please. Who is anyone to tell me how much or how little I can use if I am willing to pay for it?

And by the way I keep my thermostat at 65* all year round.
 






I will use as much natural resources as I damn well please. Who is anyone to tell me how much or how little I can use if I am willing to pay for it?

And by the way I keep my thermostat at 65* all year round.

Thanks for the flame! Your parents must be proud :rolleyes:
 






Al Gore, where are you, he isn't paying enough to your organization for energy credits. BTW, does anyone recall how much electricity he uses at his big house? I heard last week that it's up about half of a normal household's worth, still more than 20 houses worth.
 






Here ya go Don.

From the link in post 16 of this thread:
Since taking steps to make his home more environmentally-friendly last June, Gore devours an average of 17,768 kWh per month – 1,638 kWh more energy per month than before the renovations – at a cost of $16,533. By comparison, the average American household consumes 11,040 kWh in an entire year, according to the Energy Information Administration.
 






17768 * 12 / 11040 = 19.3

So he uses 19 times as much electricity as the average American household. Very sad and sorry excuse for a human being, IMO.
 






isen't co2 emissions and global warming enough to want you to not use what oil is left?theres no reason we need to burn EVERYTHING we can.
 






Global warming is BS, created by people who want to run your life, and ruin capitalism. Most of the communists when the USSR died moved over into the green party, to be part of the environmentalist whack jobs.

There has been no proof that we humans have caused any climate change. On the contrary, there is a lot of proof that the Earth has changed climate conditions for thousands of years, without us burning fossil fuels. Unfortunately that has not stopped them(Al Gore etc.) from creating proof, false reports, movies etc, based on non factual information.

The Earth has dropped in temperature for more than ten years, I doubt that we humans had anything to do with that either. Use common sense instead of believing every scary story by the media. They want to take everything away from all of us, and "give" it back to us through the government. Can you not see the similarity to communism, it is the direction that we are headed right now.
 



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Not so fast on Al Gore's house...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

--TCPR used outdated information for the avg family's energy use. They say Gore used 20 times the national avg, the AP said that in reality his home uses 12x what the avg household uses in the area.
--Gore's house is 4x as big as the average house
--The house also functions as a home office for both he and Tipper
--The Gore's pay a $432 / month premium to get their energy from alternative sources
--When climate and size are taken into account, Gore's usage is similar to other houses in the area
 






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