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TROLL where ya at? changing engine parts

rocket 5979

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ok here is my plan as some of you have seen on other posts of mine i am going to put a 347 stroker motor or maybe just the kit in my 2000 5.0 explorer and add a blower down that line a while. well since i have been looking i have heard and seen that the 347 is based off of the existing 302 block i have in my x anyways. so my question is being that i plan on getting a ms-dis4 ignition a true dual exhaust setup, superchip till the S/C comes along, new canfield heads, better injectors, shift kit for my tranny, kkm intake, mas sensor w/ spacer, and throttle body with t/b spacer along with the 347 setup. is there any of this i can buy now and install and not hurt before going ahead with the 347 project? i dont want to have to buy parts over again but i want to have the added power as soon as possible. does anyone know if TROLL was originally a V-8 5.0 before the 347? and also was it the 347 kit or was it the whole new engine that he put in? thanks for any advice given.
 



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rocket 5979

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compression for S/C

i also have been seeing that between regular 347's and ones built for use with a S/C that the compression has to be a little different or something. can anyone expand upon that a little? i plan on getting a supercharger but not for another year maybe(depending on how fundage works out). but till then i dont want to get the wrong parts and cause excessive wear on my new engine setup when i am not running the S/C. am i just being paranoid or is this question even worth asking?
 












rocket 5979

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trolls site

i actually have that website on my favs list i look at it soo much. though it does tell me alot of the mods done to his explorer it doesnt answer the questions i have above. he said that he has a ronnie crawford built 347, i guess it would be safe to assume that this was not done with a kit? also i dont think it said anything about whether or not his original engine was a 5.0 or not. cause if it was a 5.0 then why does he recommend changing the tranny to an AODE with a shift kit when the 5.0's come with the AODE tranny. as long as it didnt have too much wear on the tranny i wouldnt think that it would need replacing. besides seals and convertor and stuff.
 






rocket 5979

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update

well i have been looking on the net and pricing parts and stuff for the mods i need to do. one thing is that bill told me in an email to get Kaufmann ranger 5.0 swap long tube headers, i was wondering why i need this? out of curiousity. i know that if he recommends it then i will need it for what i have told him i want to do. but the only thing i was wondering about is if this is for a 5.0 302 then why wont my stock headers work on it? or do these just flow better than my stocks?
 






X24

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I thought headers were different than an exhaust manifold. Arent headers designed so that each pipe off each cylinder bends and twists around to make each pipe the same exact length.
 






rocket 5979

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yeah i think so

sorry i think i had a little bit of a brainfart there. yeah i think so now that you say somehting about it. but what i want to know just for info sake is what is the advantage of that? besides uniformity? is it just to prevent uneven wear?
 






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Originally posted by 98FordX24
I thought headers were different than an exhaust manifold. Arent headers designed so that each pipe off each cylinder bends and twists around to make each pipe the same exact length.
Not exactly, that's what equal length headers are.

Headers are more free flowing than stock exhaust manifolds because they have larger diameter tubing. They also have mandrel bends. They are much lighter also because they don't have all the extra thickness to help reduce noise.
 






james t

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as far as the compression ratio is concerned- you will want a little lower comp. if you're gonna run a charger. most 347's come around 9-10:1... with an option for low compression pistons. get the low comp. one. it will not hurt anyting running the low comp. 347 with no blower.
 






section525

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Trolls truck was a 5.0 originally. I think he reccommends a new tranny cause 600HP is a lot of work for the stock 215HP rated tranny to deal with. I think he said he went through 3 transmissions before he built up this last one.

His 347 had to be a kit because Ford doesn't make a 347 block or 396. They're just stroked out 302s or 351s. Check out http://www.ford-power.com for some pretty sweet engines.
 






Mbrooks420

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I'm scared of destroying my trans. and my truck is stock. The stock trannys suck. I hope AA come out with the adapter soon so I have a plan when my transmision goes again....:(
 






rocket 5979

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347 kits

hmm i know there are alot of kits out there for the 347 conversion, and though i know that ford never made a regular 347. and the 347 is based off of the 302 block, i still have seen where places like coast high performance and fox lake have offered complete engine packages minus the heads and manifold and cam. i didnt know if he originally just got the kit and if he did where from? he said ronnie crawford built it but was it from the kit or what? i am a little squeamish of getting a kit versus a new 347 engine. the reason being that at least i know if it is prebuilt i know the thing is built right. and also if it comes as a package it has to be more tested and tried than just a regular kit. maybe i am thinking in the wrong way or something, but that is just my look at it.
 






section525

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I gotcha. You want to know if he stroked out his original five oh, or if he put in a completly new 347. I think it was a completly different block in his X. But I'm not certain. Thats what I would have done. Dropped in a whole new engine.
 






mikeresin

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i wouldnt bother with a 347.

i would go with forged pistons, eagle i-beams
slap some trick flow twisted wedge heads ported and polished on with 1.6rr's and SS valves
you will be pushin close to 400hp right there. and already setup for a blower.

347's are cool but you can pull the same hp without strokin it
 






Guy Groves

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I agree with Mikeresin ...

There is a lot you can do to the 5.0 without the bore and stroke work and get very good HP.

But the real question is why are you going for lots of pony power anyway?

Track car
Dedicated Street racer
street racer / daily driver
daily driver
Off road

Remember that power comes at a price. Part of the price is the cash, the other part is the reliability of the engine and other components. A 347 is NOT as reliable, you will put much more maintenance into it. Are you prepared for that?

Large power plants also require other costly modifications that go along with the engine - transmission, drive shaft, and differential to name a few. There are other considerations that MUST be made such as: springs, shocks, sway bar, and brakes to maintain / improve road manners. OH, did I mention tires? Bet you want different rubber as well.

So what's the point here. Don't just say you want a big engine and you plan on a supercharger some day to get 600HP? There is more to it than just the engine.

Don't go all out on the engine and forget the suspension, drive train, and braking. You would be better off (in my opinion) with lower horse power and a vehicle with the right suspension, drive train, and brakes to handle it. This will get the power to the road where you want it. A 347 will get the power to the transmission, but then what?
broken tranny, drive shaft, stripped gears ....
If you get to speed will it stop, or roll over in a turn?

Mike's recomendation of twisted wedge heads, and other upgrades (you might not even need to go with forged pistons) allows youto upgrade your existing power plant without getting into the engine block. saving some cost and time. NO you won't get as many ponies under the hood, but you can take some of the money and put real (aftermarket) disk brakes on, a heavier sway bar, tuned shocks, and some nice rubber and get the power to the road and keep it there.
 






mikeresin

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Guy is right. you can have all the hp's in the world but without the suspension its useless.

i remember reading a thread about troll going to the track.

he spun his tires like a mad man through 3rd gear.

i know alot of mustang guys who have the same problem. they are running nos or blowers and what not but still pull mid 13's becuase they dont have traction.


something to think about.
 






rocket 5979

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oh yeah

i do plan on getting the suspension, sway bars shocks and all the other stuff to supplement the power i am wanting to achieve here too. maybe a little down the road but surely not too far to hurt anything. maybe when i get my taxes back. i am going to get back to the states in december anyways so it will not be a looong time between getting the engine stuff and getting the suspension stuff too. the reason i was more concentrating on the engine is because there seems to be alot more technical stuff and sizes involved in the engine versus suspension assemblies. so i wanted to learn and get those out of the way first then move on with the easier stuff. i do completely agree with you both though. a streetcar isnt a streetcar if it cannot get the power to where it belongs and that is the road(without putting the owner in danger either). you said that i could achieve that kind of horsepower without radically modifying my engine as i was saying. what particular numbers do you think i would achieve and with what parts? the easier and more relaible with less maintenance is better in my book. and if it is cheaper then that would be the way to go as long as quality was not sacrificed. well your recommendations have helped alot, i hope to hear more. thanks.
 






mikeresin

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if you want more reliability then tons of hp's then forget about the 331 or the 347.

as far as all the engine parts, talk to shannon at www.dtaperformance.com

he will hook you up.
just tell him what youwant. he knows his shi*
 






Guy Groves

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Sorry for the length, It's lunch break and you got me going ....

I'm not sure the answer to suspension / brakes etc. are as easy as you might think. As an example - Brakes:

Depending upon the wheel size you plan on using you will have the choice of 11,12,13 and even larger rotors, of different styles. Then there are calipers with 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 pistons (4 and 6 piston calipers are really intended for race use). Then there is the master cylinder and any boost module - Want more cylinder pressure and brake engage speed, go to a smaller master cylinder (increased hydraulic pressure)

Also I would budget the costs at about 40% Engine, and the other components at 60% (my guess)

Just talking engine now...
The first thing you MUST decide:

1) How street legal do I need to be (emissions)?
2) How reliable do I expect my engine to be?
As a general rule (not always) the more power you develop the less reliability.


This is mostly true when you change the basic design of the engine by boring and stroking the engine, which involves enlarging the cylinder bore, new cylinders, and changing the stroke distance with a new modified crank. There are a number of good quality kits out there to do this, but the bottom line is that you are pushing the original design of the engine. You can purchase a bored and stroked engine at pretty reasonable cost, but remember - They don't come with a warranty for a reason.

What's available - what should you do???
This forum is good, but also talk to as many people as you can about your plans. Go to a good speed shop in your area and talk with some of them.

HP without bore and stroke (you would need these things on a stroked engine as well)

Exhaust - a basic requirement for every engine to make added HP.

For the 5.0 -
Exhaust: 1 5/8" to 1 ¾ header tubes into a 2 ½ or 2 1/4" primary.
For dual exhaust use a free flow 2 1/2" CAT and good 2 1/2" mufflers and pipes. (I prefer Flowmaster, this is your basic stang setup)

For single exhaust run the primaries into a 3” collector into 3” Cat, muffler and pipes.

Intake -
There are many available - Ford GT and aftermarket. The stock Explorer intake is the cast aluminum GT model. These are good flowing intakes and can be extrude honed for about $600, or you can buy an aftermarket intake. A basic principal is that the shorter the runner the more top end HP, the longer the runners the more Low end. Trucks use something like 17" tubes, street performance intakes come in at about 15", high performance / track intakes are 12" or shorter.

Edelbrock, and Holly have developed "systems" with heads, intake, & cam that are quite good. TrickFlow also has systems, but my opinion is that they are designed more for track use (especially their cams) than street use, but they are GREAT products. If I were going Trickflow I would investigate their compatibility with a high torque cam from another vendor, but that’s just for my application – off road / torque over HP.

Heads
A good set of heads is essential... but what’s good?
There are trade offs here; Aluminum heads are not always the answer, Iron heads can actually make more HP. Iron is heavy; Aluminum is lightweight. Iron holds a steady heat, Aluminum looses heat too fast and you loose power just keeping the heads hot. Iron contracts and expands at rates that are the same as the block; Aluminum does not and requires more expensive head gaskets.

The big deal about Aluminum heads is that that's what the aftermarket uses to build heads that FLOW well, and reduce weight. Flow is what you are after. Iron heads properly ported will also Flow well and make great HP. (I ported my set of GT heads instead of going to Aluminum to save a few bucks, >$400). The explorer P heads already flow quite well. A mild porting job would make them competitive with many aftermarket aluminum heads.

CAM:
This is often called your engines heart beat or "pacemaker". Selecting the right cam will make or break your project. Choose carefully. This means study and learn about cams. It will control the RPM range where you make that HP. There is too much to discuss than I can include here.

Injectors:
Changing injectors may be necessary. You might need to go to 24# injectors. But you should be careful - We do the majority of our driving at lower rpms where we don't "exercise" the injectors. 24# injector spray pattern will be compromised atthose lower RPM ranges. On the other hand at the higher rpm ranges the 24# injectors are necessary when making over about 350 HP. 19# injectors are good up to about 400 HP. It sounds like you will put this engine to the test, so you will most likely want 24# injectors, but they could be an upgrade item.

Fuel pump:
Go ahead and get a 190 lph or 250 lph pump now. You will need it, and you really only want to change this item one time. Get a used one - 190 lph pumps can be had used for $50 - $60.

Fuel Rails:
The stock should work for starters; this will be future upgrade item. You will only notice their impact at the high end.

Fuel regulator:
Go ahead and get an adjustable one now. With the other mods you will probably need it.

Throttle body & MAF:
To make the HP and get ready for a supercharger go with a large TB and MAF now. Use whatever the supercharger would recommend. AccuFab & BBK are good sources for the TB. Match the MAF as well. I prefer C&L (www.cnlperformance.com), they make a good product and give good help (I have heard lots of quality control problems with the ProM / Pro-Flow MAF. It is better metering on paper, but they have lots of problems with delivered product).

Engine Control Unit (EEC)
You have a 97 so you have EEC V system. I am not familiar with EEC V performance parts / replacements. A replacement chip will probably be required, but you will need to get it re-programmed with every major change you make if you do the project in steps. The other alternative is to use the stock chip until you finish the mods and get one once. The high-end alternative is the EPEC programming system - program your own. It should work with the 97 EEC V, but you would need to check it out. There may be some other programmable EEC V systems out there that I don’t know about. There are some for the EEC IV.

With the aftermarket products I'm sure you can make 300 to 370 HP without stroking. Put on a supercharger and you’re in the 450+ HP range. I would expect to spend $3K to $4K on parts, and another $3500 for a supercharger. You would also have to buy these components for a stroked engine. (A good stroker short block should cost something like $3K and up, and there is no mileage warranty)

Some WEB sites:
www.edelbrock.com
www.holley.com
www.trickflow.com
www.compcams.com
www.crower.com
www.cnlperformance.com
www.pro-flow.com

For new and used parts for 5.0 liter at good prices:
www.corral.net
 



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james t

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Guy- i agree with everything you said with exception of the injectors. 19 lb (stock) with the stock fuel pressure are only good to about 320hp. you dont run into drivability issues with big injectors until you get over 36's. even then, there are tricks to take care of this issue. 24's are good for about 380hp, and 30's are good for 460-ish. also understand, you need a bigger injector for same given hp when running boost. an injectors flow rating is figured at atmospheric pressure. supercharging increases manifold pressure WELL beyond atmospheric pressure, so you have manifold pressure pushing against fuel pressure. if you want 500hp on the flywheel with a 347 and a blower, i would go with AT LEAST 36 lb. injectors, with a MAS recalibrated to run them.
 






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