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turdle's mounty moves on

hello all! well, turdle's mounty has come to maryland. i had been tossing around the idea of a really well built suv that didn't cost a fortune. i have a 97 mounty to tow my racecar and it has been a trusty companion for the last 4 years, but the drivetrain, although very reliable, hasn't been very inspiring. so, i had been looking around for options. i settled on the thought of a 347, but the cost was out of my range...until i read about turdle's mounty up for sale. done deal!

now i need to get going on it. work has been crazy for the past month, so i havent been able to get very far and august isn't looking much better, but i am going to try to squeeze in some time.

i thought about fixing up the new mounty and just selling mine, but with all the body work, reassembly of the drivetrain and electrical issues, it would be far less time to swap in the drivetrain. so, i pulled the engine and trans.

let me tell you, that 4406 is a monster! i dont think its going into mine. the shifter location intruded upon my leg space and i like a stock appearance better, so i'm either going to stick with the AWD or swap in a 4405 control trac and use the v-6 radio bezel with the TC control knobs. need to find out if the control trac can hold up to the power of the mighty 347 tho.

i originally thought that the drivetrain was perfect as is, but after looking into it further, the 3k stall torque converter changes the entire ballgame. i found out that a stall converter isnt good for towing and a lumpy cam is no good for a stock stall. so, they both have to go. i picked out a smaller comp cams stick and a hughs towing converter. the trans is good for over 600tq from stock and the art carr shift kit is a great plus, so that will remain as is. again, the 4406 is NOT going into my truck. the next thing i have been considering is a change in the engine lineup. my mustang is built for american iron, except 1 thing. the 408 lump in the engine bay makes waaay too much power. a 347 would be a perfect size. theres more work involved, but a 408 in the mounty would certainly haul my now lighter mustang! yeah, i know. ive been told a hundred times that the 351 will not fit, but im not convinced. with some block huggers instead of the really wild and tangled mess of torque monster headers, it might be easier to get past the steering column and a/c box. i think the box may need to be modified for the valve cover, but it wouldn't be hard to do. good news is i now have lots of spare parts to test with! the oil pan and CPS arent going to be too much of a problem. i could easily modify the pan i have to fit and the CPS doesn't look that hard. i have access to a lathe. its more work, but it solves 2 problems. 1) i want to have a legal american iron car. 2)i love torque and excellent street manners. i can de-cam the **** out of the 408 to idle smooth as glass while never sweating the hills of PA while towing.

if that doesn't work out, so be it, but it would be a cool project! anywho, thats my story. i hope to share the build with you all! thanks to turdle for helping get this thing shipped to me.
 



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Pardon, I didn't read the entire thread but I thought the oil level is set at a certain "height" so that, as the crankshaft is rotating, the crankshaft isn't dipping into the volume of oil. If this is true, then it should be pretty easy to determine how long of a dipstick you need, or did is this too oversimplified?
 



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well, basically, that was the question i had asked to start with. fordstrokers.com indicated that it didn't matter that the crank was closer to the oil level. i assume this was said because there was enough "cushion" distance, but i don't think i asked my question right. the correct question should have been, will a 302 disptick put in the same location on a 351w block give me a proper oil level or end up with an overfilled pan?

i am going to check this when i get home tonight. the frpp 351w pan i used as the basis for my custom pan had a pan mounted dipstick (which is no longer there). i can approximate that location and use that dipstick to tell me where it should be. my guess is that the "full" indicator will sit .5" lower in the pan (proportional to the stroke in a 302 vs a 351).
 






I thought you were using the original dipstick from the Windsor? That's got the right oil level you need, unless you do have to bend it far off it's original angle. I added a windage tray to the last two 302 engines I built, and each time I had to bend the dipstick to clear the tray. I watched the height change carefully each time, and for those it needed to be about a 1/4" lower on the dipstick for the same level. I made a pair of marks on the back of those dipsticks, to show where the new correct level needed to be. I don't plan on using that kind of windage tray again, and those were the FMS piece.

Find Todd's pictures on the RPS Ranger website, those were his most detailed. He mocked everything up on a spare raw Explorer chassis, a front half test fixture. So his parts will work exactly the same in his Ranger Splash as well as any 95-01 Explorer/Mountaineer.
 






i have all those pictures archived in my "build assistance" folder. the header tube on #4 would definitely run right through the A/C box. can say for certain about anything else. i am going to have to got to a downturn bend directly from the header flange on most of the primaries.

i forgot about the bend i made in the dipstick to clear the bearing cap. that will definitely change the full mark location downward. maybe i should just make sure the dipstick mark sits below the swing of the rotating assembly to be certain it won't drag through the oil, whether it would cause an issue or not.
 






cam position sensor kluge

. . . the CMP looks to be the hardest part of this swap right now. no factory piece of any factory CMP will work without modification. none of the mods can be done without metal working equipment. i can have custom parts made, but they are expensive. i know of only 1 person who has actually runs a modded v6 CMP in a 351w block...a mustang guy with LS1 coil packs and AEM computer. it has been attempted by others, but that is the only successful case i know of. the only other attempt is tkmoso on this site and the last thread i saw on it hadnt addressed the issue of the explorer body being too small for the 351w hole. if there are other success stories out there with factory parts, i would love to see them. i would like to see this done inexpensively!

I found this old post on TCCoA Forums by fastford351 that sounds promising:

"Cam position sensor

The height of the 302 and 351 blocks in the area of the distributor is the same, but the diameter of the hole for the distributor on a 351 is a bit bigger. The other difference is that the 302 has a 1/4" hex shaft to drive the oil pump and the 351 has a 5/16" hex shaft. You can cut down a 351 distributor and graft the 302 CPS set-up on the top of it. I've done it for a couple builds. The other way is to put the 351 shaft in the 302 sensor set-up (and weld the 302 sensor trigger to the top of it) and sleeve the OD of the 302 set-up to fit snugly in the 351 hole. As for the crank trigger, the late 351W truck engines(96-97) had a 4 edge pulse wheel on the back of the damper so you can pop that off and press one from a 302 Explorer on it. The late truck dampers are the only ones with a shoulder machined for a pulse wheel. You could also machine a 351 damper to accept the 302 pulse wheel."

The thread is located at: *THE* 351W Swap Thread
 






i have all those pictures archived in my "build assistance" folder. the header tube on #4 would definitely run right through the A/C box. can say for certain about anything else. i am going to have to got to a downturn bend directly from the header flange on most of the primaries.

i forgot about the bend i made in the dipstick to clear the bearing cap. that will definitely change the full mark location downward. maybe i should just make sure the dipstick mark sits below the swing of the rotating assembly to be certain it won't drag through the oil, whether it would cause an issue or not.

Can you find another Windsor dipstick, even just borrow one? I'd simply compare the unmodified part to yours, and mark the backside of yours to match the height of the two marks. Put some cross hatch marks on it too if you need to be fancy.:thumbsup:
 






i took a look at where the dipstick marks are in relation to the crank. there is no issue whatsoever. theres a good inch to the extreme limits of the rotating assembly. all that fuss for nothing! 2000streetrod, thanks for that link. i have seen that one before, but hadn't noticed the info on what parts to use to make the balancer. guess i didn't pay attention since i already had one that turdles engine builder made for him. thats good info for others here. there was no mention of the pulley. do those truck 351 dampers have the same pulley or does that have to be grafted on? it looks like the balancer i have, was a factory piece, but i can't tell if the pulley is pressed into the cup or if its part of the original assembly.
 






so, i think i may have some answers on if the AEM EPM will work. some digging around revealed that the ford CMP reference voltage is 12v+...exactly what the AEM needs. the output voltage is 12v+...exactly what the AEM outputs. the output signal is a square wave (for the pre 99 only), meaning that it has an equal amount of on time as off time...THE SAME AS THE AEM! i am convinced it has a shot of working, so i am going to buy one. i am going to continue to make a "frankenstein" ford CMP for insurance.
 






96 & 97 harmonic balancer

. . . do those truck 351 dampers have the same pulley or does that have to be grafted on? it looks like the balancer i have, was a factory piece, but i can't tell if the pulley is pressed into the cup or if its part of the original assembly.

I have not been able to find a photo online of a 96 or 97 5.8L harmonic balancer with a 4 edge pulse wheel. I checked Dorman's product listing and none was shown. I know that I've seen one in the past but don't know for what model and year.

I believe the pulley is the standard 4 bolt configuration. The problem is finding one of the correct diameter. Then the balancer has to be machined in order for the pulley to line up with the other items on the serpentine belt.
 






I have not been able to find a photo online of a 96 or 97 5.8L harmonic balancer with a 4 edge pulse wheel. I checked Dorman's product listing and none was shown. I know that I've seen one in the past but don't know for what model and year.

I believe the pulley is the standard 4 bolt configuration. The problem is finding one of the correct diameter. Then the balancer has to be machined in order for the pulley to line up with the other items on the serpentine belt.

broken%20damper%20with%20arrow.jpg


I found a little about it here:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/969873-parts-help-needed-5-8-harmonic-balancer-1996-vs-1995-or-older.html
 






2000 CMP is different

so, i think i may have some answers on if the AEM EPM will work. some digging around revealed that the ford CMP reference voltage is 12v+...exactly what the AEM needs. the output voltage is 12v+...exactly what the AEM outputs. the output signal is a square wave (for the pre 99 only), meaning that it has an equal amount of on time as off time...THE SAME AS THE AEM! i am convinced it has a shot of working, so i am going to buy one. i am going to continue to make a "frankenstein" ford CMP for insurance.

I compared the CMP wiring diagrams for 2000 vs 1996. The 1996 CMP has 3 wire connections: +12 supply (red); chassis ground (black/white) and signal (dark blue/orange) that goes to PCM pin 85 (CAM POS IN). The 2000 CMP only has 2 wire connections: signal (dark blue/orange) to PCM pin 85, and signal return (gray/red) to PCM pin 91. I suspect the 2000 CMP uses +5 volts instead of +12 volts and may not be compatible with the AEM engine position module.

The wiring diagram in my Haynes Manual (which may not be accurate) shows no CMP changes for 1996 thru 1999.
 






4 prong reluctor


Thanks for posting the photo showing the 4 prong reluctor and the link. I remember now that I saw one on eBay a while back. I wish now that I had bought it just in case I might need one sometime. Especially since they are no longer available from the Ford dealers. It would be set up for 28 oz external balance so might be a candidate for a 5.0L stroker harmonic balancer.
 






Thanks for posting the photo showing the 4 prong reluctor and the link. I remember now that I saw one on eBay a while back. I wish now that I had bought it just in case I might need one sometime. Especially since they are no longer available from the Ford dealers. It would be set up for 28 oz external balance so might be a candidate for a 5.0L stroker harmonic balancer.

The Ford part # is F6TZ-6312-JA. There's one on Ebay right now for $130.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/96-FORD-5-8-351-V8-HARMONIC-ENGINE-BALANCER-PULLEY-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa52e6697QQitemZ320598861463QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
 






That's interesting, in that it could be a lighter balancer in the end, if the backside is usable for the Explorer trigger wheel.

Dale, that rings a bell about the 5v versus 12v of the AEM part. I recall a big thread on the Corral where a member was converting his to that system, and he was trying to use the Explorer CMP. The AEM part was a new offering then and not quite available. I can't remember what he ended up doing, I think he made one from a V6 and the 302 IIRC. He had GM coil packs mounted to his valve covers like the GM cars. I recall that, I don;t like the way that looks myself. Night,
 






That's interesting, in that it could be a lighter balancer in the end, if the backside is usable for the Explorer trigger wheel.

Dale, that rings a bell about the 5v versus 12v of the AEM part. I recall a big thread on the Corral where a member was converting his to that system, and he was trying to use the Explorer CMP. The AEM part was a new offering then and not quite available. I can't remember what he ended up doing, I think he made one from a V6 and the 302 IIRC. He had GM coil packs mounted to his valve covers like the GM cars. I recall that, I don;t like the way that looks myself. Night,

I believe this is what he did:

Camsensrmod1e.jpg
 






the pic just above illustrates the sleeve i am having made right now. if you go back a page or 2, i disected some CMP's and took pics of 2 different styles of triggers. the half moon is the pre 99, which gives a square wave. the smaller flag is 99+, which emits a short pulse. not sure on the voltage, but i suspect 5v+ since the ref voltage comes from the ECU. long story short, the AEM only has a good chance of working on pre 99...i say 99 is the cutoff because the autozone part number is 1 type for 96-98, another type for 00-01 and both for 99. so, it stands to reason that it was a mid-year switch. granted, autozone hasn't proven to be the most accurate, but to be safe, check your connector. 2 wire=no go. 3 wire=good to go.
 






1999 and newer should all be the two wire, 96-98 has three wires. Yes the 96-98 PCM is the one to use for retrofitting to other engines.
 






Potential reluctor

I just found this interesting device on eBay:

36minus1.jpg


I posted information on this yesterday but it was apparently deleted - possibly categorized as spam.

Anyway, it looks like it could be easily modified to fit on a balancer equipped with the 4 point reluctor and hopefully other less rare balancers. I haven't been able to locate a used balancer with the 4 point reluctor nor a 5.8L engine with that type of balancer. I believe it was only used on some of the 1996 F-150s.
 






Maybe this will help you Dale. They were also available on 96 Broncos.

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so, what needs to be done to that balancer to accept the explorer pulley?
 






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