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War, the whole picture, political or religous

lonestar

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I really haven't kept up with the war issue going on over in the east. I was hoping maybe some of you could fill me in. Actually I have several questions that maybe answered.

Is the war on Iraq completly about weapons?
Are we also supporting Isreal's fight to keep their land?
Why do some churches support, some protest?
Is this a Holy War?

I have more, but they are kinda deep.

I know their are military, civilians, religious, unreligious, republicans and demorats here. I was hoping to get different perspectives, but please support your answer with facts or history, rather than slander political or religious parties. I am trying to make this a educational thread, not opinions, mockery and slander.

My quick input, or thoughts
Sadam Hussain should have been taken care of during desert storm, but Bush Sr. couldn't get enough support, Clinton didn't follow through, now Bush Jr. is stepping up to bat and is accusing him of finishing his daddy's war, when it should have been taken care of before.

Simply stated, Americans forget too quickly and easy. For the most part, we have already forgotten about Sept 11, and wonder what we are still doing in Afghanistaan. What about WW2. We stopped Hitler, but we didn't get involved until Japan bombed us. Sadam could very easily become the next Hitler, what are we waiting for? Don't we learn from our mistakes.
 



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Garth

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I am mostly worried about not finishing what we need to finish. Our Enemies dont worry about who is the good American or the Bad. So why cant we just fight a war that gets rid of all who stands in our way. A war for peace of mind I say. Sorry if I steered of topic but you know us suv guys dont always stay on the road. (venture to new adventures you know)
 






jimbo74

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I say no war! lets just drop some regular bombs on their weapons sites... and let their own nukes kill them.... the ones they say dont exist. :rolleyes:
 






cdsl227

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I'd love to follow this that's why I'm posting this, but I'll pick it up tomorrow.
 






hrbib21

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Is the war on Iraq completly about weapons?
About 90%.
Are we also supporting Isreal's fight to keep their land?
Yes. They will keep their land it's just a matter of stopping those who don't want them to have it.
Why do some churches support, some protest?
I don't know what you mean. I can only speak for my church (Roman Catholic) and they do not support it.
Is this a Holy War?
Yes, against us, the infidels. We are not like them, they use their religion as a ruse to hate us. That's it.
Sadam Hussain should have been taken care of during desert storm, but Bush Sr. couldn't get enough support, Clinton didn't follow through, now Bush Jr. is stepping up to bat and is accusing him of finishing his daddy's war, when it should have been taken care of before.
This is simply not true. This is propaganda spewed forth by left-wingers who do not support Pres. Bush, the war, or our country, PERIOD. The fact is, there were no less than 6 UN resolutions regarding the 1991 Gulf War. All of those resolutions stated the objective as being to remove Iraq from Kuwait. That is it. No mention was made of regime change or taking over any part of Iraq. People always want to blame Bush Sr. but you need to be blaming the UN, a useless organization.
 






jimbo74

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about the religious thing... i am Christian as well... i am more specifically a Mormon.. As a religion we feel that war is bad.... I used to be Roman Catholic (the rest of my family still is) and their church also believes war is bad... BUT the personal views of my family, and me and my friends (mainly LDS) are to go get those jerks!
 






hrbib21

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Originally posted by jimabena74
about the religious thing... i am Christian as well... i am more specifically a Mormon.. As a religion we feel that war is bad.... I used to be Roman Catholic (the rest of my family still is) and their church also believes war is bad... BUT the personal views of my family, and me and my friends (mainly LDS) are to go get those jerks!
Right there witcha!
 






hrbib21

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I found this quite funny:
Dead Link Removed
 






hrbib21

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Of course, I expect that will get deleted for the language. Sorry, wish I could edit out the words.
 






unclemeat

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If I remember correctly, America wanted to remove saddam during the gulf war. The UN and allies wanted to remove him from Kuait. What has changed?
 






PghBill

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Already at War!

For the enemy, and there is an enemy - radical Islam - it is a religious war against the infidels - i.e., all those who are not believers but especially the U.S.A.!

For us, its a war to continue our way of life, protect our freedoms, and more immediately, to be secure and safe even in our homeland.

Remember, we have been attacked here at least twice - WTC '93 and 9-11!

P.S. hrbib - Great Poster!!!!
 






lonestar

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Originally posted by hrbib21
I don't know what you mean. I can only speak for my church (Roman Catholic) and they do not support it.

All I know is my church (Baptist) had a entire service explaining the ties between Isreal, Jews and Christianity. It's like a 2 part thing, I missed the first one, but from what I heard from others it was about supporting Isreal. Jews are God's choosen people and Isreal is the Holy Land. Now that Jews are returning to reclaim thier land, they are being attacked. And as Christians we should act accordingly. If Isreal is simply fighting to keep their land we should support them in the fight against Iraq, but if they are visciously attacking surrounding countries, we should not. So it sounds to me like we support war, maybe I misunderstood.

As for Catholics, I'm not sure, All I heard was the Pope didn't support war. So does that mean that Catholics don't support war? Why not?, if it means defending the Holy Land.
There were some anti-war protestors in front of a church last night, (I think it was Catholic). As we drove by my friend just yelled "Bush Rules" and they looked at him kinda funny.

Maybe someone could shed some light on the religious issues of war.

Nice poster hrbib21, maybe I'll use it if I decide to protest.
 






lonestar

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No one, Cmon, I know some of you have thoughts on this...
 






woodychitwn

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Here are my thoughts, unpopular as they might be;

Most of the turmoil in the mid-east has been caused directly, or indirectly by our actions. And now that they've finally struck back, we're stunned and can't understand why. 9-11 was a motivated attack to avenge the deaths of thousands of their own people. Regardless, the act was cowardly and we all despise what they’ve done. And I'm not alone in this all-consuming desire to "bring to justice" the individuals responsible. But that's all I want. Go after those directly responsible for 9-11 and get out of the middle-east. We need to bring our troops back and leave the middle-east alone. Let them hash out their own problems, because we've already done enough damage.

As for why we're so hated in the middle-east, and what we've done to become so despised, here are the facts in chronological order. Everything is well documented and easily verified.

1947-48: U.S. backs Palestine partition plan. Israel established. U.S. declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return.
1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.
1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter-century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi.
1956: U.S. cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms.
1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. U.S. does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.
1958: U.S. troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability".
Early 1960s: U.S. unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.
1963: U.S. supports coup by Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam Hussein) and reportedly gives them names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.
1967: U.S. blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war.
1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and U.S. discuss intervening on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.
1972: U.S. blocks Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Israel.
1973: Airlifted U.S. military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.
1973-75: U.S. supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and U.S. denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."
1975: U.S. vetoes Security Council resolution condemning Israeli attacks on Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon.
1978-79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. U.S. tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, U.S. tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail.
1979-88: U.S. begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979. Over the next decade U.S. provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid.
1980-88: Iran/Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the U.S. opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. U.S. soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows U.S. arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, U.S. lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 U.S. provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. U.S. provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. 1987 U.S. sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly aggressive U.S. ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.
1981, 1986: U.S. holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and U.S. shoots down two Libyan planes. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and U.S. attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing three, the U.S. charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter.
1982: U.S. gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon, killing some 17 thousand civilians. U.S. chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of U.S. weapons except in self-defense. U.S. vetoes several Security Council resolutions condemning the invasion.
1983: U.S. troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping force; intervene on one side of a civil war, including bombardment by USS New Jersey. Withdraw after suicide bombing of marine barracks.
1984: U.S. backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner.
1987-92: U.S. arms used by Israel to repress first Palestinian Intifada. U.S. vetoes five Security Council resolution condemning Israeli repression.
1988: Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and uses chemical weapons against them. The U.S. increases its economic ties to Iraq.
1988: U.S. vetoes 3 Security Council resolutions condemning continuing Israeli occupation of and repression in Lebanon.
1990-91: U.S. rejects any diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait (for example, rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of Kuwait and of Palestine). U.S. leads international coalition in war against Iraq. Civilian infrastructure targeted. To promote "stability" U.S. refuses to aid post-war uprisings by Shi'ites in the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter flights.
1991: Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. U.S. and Britain block all attempts to lift them. Hundreds of thousands die. Though Security Council had stated that sanctions were to be lifted once Saddam Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended, Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as Saddam remains in power. Sanctions in fact strengthen Saddam's position. Asked about the horrendous human consequences of the sanctions, Madeleine Albright (U.S. ambassador to the UN and later Secretary of State) declares that "the price is worth it."
1991: U.S. forces permanently based in Saudi Arabia.
1993: U.S. launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self defense against an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months earlier.
1998: U.S. and U.K. bomb Iraq over the issue of weapons inspections, even though Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter.
1998: U.S. destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare. Evidence for the chemical warfare charge widely disputed.
2000: Israel uses U.S. arms in attempt to crush Palestinian uprising, killing hundreds of civilians.

Sorry for the length, but hopefully you can now see why we're so hated.
 






cdsl227

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The war at this point is to stave off and chance of iraq coming into the nuclear arena.

God only knows we'll have to deal N. Korea eventually, but I think they're after some loot.

Whereas in the arab arena- they're after our demise.

In addition to that, it is also to rid iraq of the biochemical weapons that the WORLD knows he has. Because hey, he's already proven he has no qualms about using them. Not even against his own people.

Latest news in says he's developing long range missiles. So, the US must do what it has to do. Personally I say make it a waste land, won't take too much work and then force a leadership that WILL work with everyone to bring prosperity to the region.

The only thing there is to admire about Saddam is that he doesn't play, if pushed enough he'll push back, which is basically why the rest of the arab nations in the region are scared sh!tless.

If we took the same stance as him, he would have been wiped the F$$$ out a long time ago.

Religious, without a doubt...we are supposed to lay down and die. Not happening!

I say wipe him and his enitire following out and the world will be a better place.
 






cdsl227

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Not to be one sided, but look at the source:
The United States and Middle East:
Why Do "They" Hate Us?
(revised, 22 Sept. 2001)

By Stephen R. Shalom


Of course it's an excerpt from a German site, a people who seem to forget what we've done for them.

In addition, it dones't seem to mention other countries that backed our decisions in quite a few of the incidents listed...

We can all pick apart world policies, but the sad truth is- these are terrorist governments that we're facing...should we in the words of the everso wise french-

"Take a chance to give peace a chance"!?!??!

What? They take that position French and Germany because they're scared to death that they'll:

1) lose the billions in illegal trade they're conducting with iraq, by circumventing the resolutions they were a part of implementing.
2) become instant targets because there's probably numerous terrorist inadvertently being harbored within their borders.
3) have to put up some kind of support.
 






woodychitwn

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Originally posted by cdsl227
Of course it's an excerpt from a German site, a people who seem to forget what we've done for them.

Actually, I was referencing ZNET, the on-line version of Z magazine, which is completely American. And although I consider them to be a bit too extreme, they nonetheless have valid reference material.
 






lonestar

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Originally posted by cdsl227
The United States and Middle East:
Why Do "They" Hate Us?
(revised, 22 Sept. 2001)

That was some good stuff, but I wondered where it came from...

How come we didn't get this much flack about WWII. Probably because we acted immediatly. We didn't wait 2 years for people to come up with excuses. Just think, 2 years ago, just about everybody was willing to sign up and go bomb the entire middle east. Now that Sept 11 has worn off, nobody wants to do anything.

Don't think they have forgot about us. We have to stand up for our country and what WE stand for. Many when died in battle for what we have today. We can't continue to let people come over a change the way we think just because it is a FREE country.
 






cdsl227

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My intent wasn't to shoot down the points you made...seriously what you brought up is all too true.

The thing is- we're asked to intercede in many of these countries on behalf of the people, on behalf of humanity and then when we do what we feel needs to be done we're criticized for it.

I always thought giving land to the israelis was wrong. Too much of what we've done in the mid-east was wrong, but now- what we're doing right now- is right.

The attached image, perhaps in bad taste, but I used to work there...that kind of carnage the slaughter of thousands- can be coming to a town near anybody in this country sometime soon.
 

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cdsl227

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I've read that article before, I just happened to locate it on a German website...

It always amazes me when I read about how it's OUR policies when the reality of it is- we're usually acting on behalf of someone else.

No! Our lifestyles shouldn't change because the population is shifting.

I may not be an American Indian, but I'm AS American.

Where I was born, where I Proudly live, and where I'll happily die.

I consider the attacks, not the work of one radical group, but the work of the collective governments of the mid-east.

They are the ones who asked and ask for our help and then once given portray us as the evil infidels.

Well we're comin for you- are you prepared to die.
 






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