War, the whole picture, political or religous

[Rick]

I'm not trying to start a firestorm, just trying to provoke some good conversation. I heard the question asked before and wanted to pose the question here.

 

[lonestar]

Here it is
Dead Link Removed

I think Rick's question was suppose to reveal our moral beliefs or our political view. Not to negate the need for war

Edit: after RIck's post
That really doesn't follow this topic, shouldn't that start a new thread

 

[redShift]

Pro-choice and anti-war

 

[CoryL]

I think a common misconception is that people who believe that sometimes war is neccessary are "pro-war."

I don't think any stable person is "pro-war." I also believe that 75% of the people who claim to be "anti-war" are more "anti-Bush" than anything and are using this as a way to express their dislike for the current President.

The question I pose is presently unanswerable, but meant for a reflective purpose.

Can a war with Iraq prevent the loss of future American lives?

It is conceivable that by taking out Iraq now, we are preventing a future horrific attack on America that would result in the loss of many American lives.

It is equally conceivable that by not going to war, we are preventing the loss of American lives.

We cannot know which route to take as no one can predict the future, so we are forced to do what we believe to be best for ourselves, be it attacking or not attacking Iraq.

 

[JoshC]

Well put Cory.

Alot of people don't understand why we need to go to war since Iraq isn't doing anything to us. Well, one way to look at it is, there is no reason to sit back and wait for another "9-11" attack to happen. We know Sadaam has nuclear weapons, we know he hates America. What more of a reason do you need?

Sadaam is just like Osama, terriorst. Sadaam and his party treat people like animals. Sure someone will say that Sadaam won the election by like 95% or something, but he was the only one running! I can guarentee one thing, when or if we get to Iraq and everything is said and done and Sadaam is taken out, his people are going to say, "Were have you been, what has taken you so long to show us freedom?"

I am for President Bush 100%. I'm in the military and have been warned that my base may be departing out to the middle east. As scary as that is, i know it needs to be done. I don't want to put my family and friends lives at stake by waiting for something else to happen on our soil, it needs to be taken care of before ANY more people have to die.

That's my view only.

Happy trails!!

 

[GaSouthern1]

pro life and for THIS war....i am not always for war, when i feel confident that it is worth action, i am for war. Saddam is a madman that must be stopped, i am all for kickin his ass all the way to hell.

 

[cdsl227]

Pro Choice.

Pro- any war that is needed to secure THIS country from outside threats, even if that war has to be turned IN country to root out sleepers.

Because realistically I cannot rule out the fact that they exist.

If that means that some of my liberties have to be TEMPORARILY curtailed, then so be it.

Personally, I think we face some serious problems from what lies within our borders.

And, ummm...no I'm not the paranoid type. Even though it may sound that way, I'm realistic.

I'd rather not be living in NY if it's going to look like Beirut.

 

[hrbib21]

Originally posted by Rick
Very biased reference material.
"2000: Israel uses U.S. arms in attempt to crush Palestinian uprising, killing hundreds of civilians."

NO WHERE in your time line were the hundreds of Israeli casulties mentioned. You know, the ones caused by the suicide bombers... the same ones the Israelis were trying to kill when they went to "crush the Palestinian uprising"...

Oh and about those "hundreds of Palestinian deaths caused by the Israelies... maybe you weren't watching the news, but NONE of the human rights watch dog groups found ANY evidence of an Israeli massacare against the Palestinans. The Palestinains FABRICATED the story to sway world opinion.

EXACTLY. I have said this so many times. The media is so liberal that all they ever report on are the Palestinian casualties. Israel gets criticized for reacting to terrorist attacks and a few civilians happen to get killed while the Palestinians actually TARGET civilians. Who's the criminal here? While any deaths are bad, sorry, but I don't feel as bad when I hear about Palestinian deaths as I do when I hear of Israeli deaths. If Hamas, which Arafat supports, wants to target civilians and few die by Israeli hands, that's just the cost of their actions.

BTW, why is Arafat still in control? This is a terrorist who got thrown out of a thriving terrorist stronghold, Lebanon. This guy is given the Nobel Peace Prize for what reason, exactly? If they are giving those to terrorists then why doesn't Osama have one?

 

[cdsl227]

Maybe someone should nominate ubl for the nobel peace prize and point out hell they gave one to arafat.

That'd make them realize how stupid they are and that trying to bring these idiots into a new age of peace and prosperity is futile.

By the by- NO I DON'T TRULY THINK HE SHOULD BE NOMINATED!

Just to stave off any retort for that comment.

 

[ShadowA2J]

When the topic of religion and war come together, this passage usually comes to my mind:
"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord." Romans 12:19
This passage was heard an awful lot in my house growing up. I am one of 3 children and my parents are God-fearing believers. I also believe that you can't just sit back and wait for things to happen around you, that you have to be pro-active and get things done. I personally support the war and President Bush in specific. I would proudly go to Iraq to serve my country in this war, if only to support everything that the US has given me. I laugh when I hear people trying to defend the people over there, most of whom are Muslims and refer the US and Americans in general as: "The Great Satan". To them we are the Great Satan, and we shouldn't beat them to the punch and blow their innocent citizens up? We follow the certain rules of war about not targeting citizens and who did they target in the World Trade Center? I can understand targeting the Pentagon, but the WTC? That's barbaric. Sorry for ranting those are my feelings on the subject.

Bryan

 

[glfredrick]

Corey, good post... I agree.

I thought that since I have been a contributor to this discussion that I would paste in a part of the chapter from Romans 13 that I earlier referenced. It might help to clarify the biblical position on citizenship. (Especially for some of you out there who might be interested, but have never actually read what the Bible says.)

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Romans 13:1-7 (NASB-U)

[1] Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. [3] For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; [4] for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. [5] Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. [6] For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. [7] Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
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Now, for those of you that might look up this chapter, the very next part is devoted to the INDIVIDUAL and there, the commandments are enforced, no murder, no adultry, no stealing, etc... There is a difference between the rights of the state and the rights of the individual in the Christian realm. This dichotomy is what makes it so difficult for the Christian world to come to a consensus. Some stand for the individual issues, others for the state issues and the Bible does not call either wrong, but instead says, indicates that to each, what is sin, is sin.

For the "vengence" passage, I also agree...

wholeheartedly!

But with one caveat - God usually uses people in accordance with His word to do the job, thus the Romans 13 passage I think... We get into trouble when WE decide when the vengence is due instead of letting God work through the situation and details.

 

[cdsl227]

You guys are killing me with the whole Religious aspect.

No disrespect intended- to anyones Faith or Beliefs.

I was raised Roman Catholic, however, I have too many problems with Gods grand design. Therefore I do not practice.
In fact let me state unequivocally- dealing with life on a day-to-day basis- I'm just too damn busy to revisit my Faith and determine exactly where my Beliefs are.

I cannot wait for a Supreme Being to render judgment, therefore in my daily on goings I can only offer my judgment.

I feel the laws of the State, my government, reach only as far as I allow and no further and should not be construed as given by a Higher Power.

I take the Eye for an Eye thing seriously.

If thine eye offends thee then pluck it out- well I'm feeling mighty offended and the plucking (Saddam in this case) needs to start already.

I will of course make my peace, if and when the time comes, and will justify what I can and accept judgment for what I cannot.

This is the world of man...and man must be dealt with as man sees fit.

Too much in Religious Text is open for debate, sometimes the interpretation of said Text is questionable, and in the current circumstances cannot be adequately applied although- granted meaning can be Implied.

Not sure if any of that makes sense, but...I tried.

 

[redShift]

For some weird reason, I agree with cdsl227

 

[hrbib21]

Isn't it interesting when the left-wingers don't want religion involved, i.e. in school or public buildings, they fight it tooth in nail. But when our government decides that the right thing to do is to go to war, a Republican government btw, all of a sudden it's "God" this and "God" that. I guess we can call that "selective separation of church and state".

BTW, that wasn't directed at anyone on this forum. I was just noticing all the references to God in the ridiculous peace protests this weekend. Another thing about the protests: Unless they get 51% of the population out protesting, then what's the point of it all? Do they think they are the majority when maybe a total of 1 million protested in the US this weekend? Gee, last time I checked there was something like 300 million in this country. Majority my ass.

I'm Roman Catholic too, btw, and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY believe in an eye for an eye.

 

[cdsl227]

Originally posted by hrbib21
Isn't it interesting when the left-wingers don't want religion involved, i.e. in school or public buildings, they fight it tooth in nail. But when our government decides that the right thing to do is to go to war, a Republican government btw, all of a sudden it's "God" this and "God" that. I guess we can call that "selective separation of church and state".

BTW, that wasn't directed at anyone on this forum. I was just noticing all the references to God in the ridiculous peace protests this weekend. Another thing about the protests: Unless they get 51% of the population out protesting, then what's the point of it all? Do they think they are the majority when maybe a total of 1 million protested in the US this weekend? Gee, last time I checked there was something like 300 million in this country. Majority my ass.

I'm Roman Catholic too, btw, and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY believe in an eye for an eye.

I notice there's a lot of selective Religious input in our lives.

I personally have no problem with seeing a Menorah (?), Cross, Nativity Scene, or any other Religious display no matter what the Religious affiliation.

Sometimes in this madhouse (world) it's comforting to just think perhaps there is some Higher Power that will make all our wrongs right at some point.

What truly sucks- is that some of the people that purport to believe in Religion do not believe strongly enough in their Faith to fight for their rights when whackos like the ACLU strip their very existence (Religious Symbols) from our day-to-day lives.

There is no such thing as separation of Church and State when Mankind IS the State.

 

[glfredrick]

hrbib21 - good thought - very observant...

I thought that I might address that eye for an eye thing.

That was an Old Testament teaching for the Jews living under the law. It entailed exact retribution for a crime against a brother or sister Hebrew. It was never applied (or at least as far as I can tell) to anyone outside the camp of the Hebrews. That same law asked the Hebrews to simply remove the pagans to every man, woman, and child, along with all their animals, and idols. If we are going to live under the Hebrew law, then we have some real issues, for that same law recommended stoning for anyone who did not follow the God of the Hebrews (or for a rebellious child). Many of us would have no hope whatsoever...

Instead, Jesus came along and sort of recinded/amplified that Old Testament Law with a new requirement based on self-sacrifice and love. He said, and I quote from Matthew's Gospel:
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Matthew 5:38-48 (NASB-U)

[38] "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' [39] "But I {Jesus} say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. [40] "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. [41] "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. [42] "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. [43] "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' [44] "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. [46] "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [47] "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [48] "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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This teaching of Jesus was so radical that the Hebrews of the First Century killed Him for teaching it... I'll stick with the Vengence is mine, says the Lord, as well as the rights He gives the governing powers of mankind to do what they need to do, not the individual righs to anarchy and destruction for an offence that has yet to be delivered.

(And, yes, I am in favor of a preemtory strike in this case because the evidence overwhelmingly points to the fact that we are about to be attacked - but again, by our government's orders, not vigalantees.)

 

[lonestar]

Originally posted by hrbib21
Isn't it interesting when the left-wingers don't want religion involved, i.e. in school or public buildings, they fight it tooth in nail. But when our government decides that the right thing to do is to go to war, a Republican government btw, all of a sudden it's "God" this and "God" that. I guess we can call that "selective separation of church and state".

That's politics. They jump on whatever bandwagon supports their interests. When I vote, I try to find someone that would vote (or campaigns) the same way I would, be it left or right, but usually it is right, (I guess I'm more conservative). That is why I hate campaing bashing, just campaign for what "you" stand for and let me decide.

 

[hrbib21]

I agree, lonestar. I also get sick and tired of seeing the campaign ads bashing each other. Too often it becomes a personal issue between the candidates instead of concentrating on the real issues: US. These people work for us and therefore should be doing what is best for us. Telling us about how some guy smoked a joint in high school doesn't help anything and, frankly, doesn't mean anything.

BTW, I, too, don't mind seeing religious references in our daily lives. I remember a woman at work who had to take down a prayer with a cross on it from her desk area because some athiest we work with didn't want to see it and said she was "offended" by it. I am offended that I can't have a religious symbol at work but I don't matter since I'm not a whining liberal.

 

[ShadowA2J]

Originally posted by hrbib21
BTW, I, too, don't mind seeing religious references in our daily lives. I remember a woman at work who had to take down a prayer with a cross on it from her desk area because some athiest we work with didn't want to see it and said she was "offended" by it. I am offended that I can't have a religious symbol at work but I don't matter since I'm not a whining liberal.

What I don't understand is the big push to remove the 10 Commandments from courthouses'. So it says Do Not Murder, Do Not Steal, Do Not Commit Adultery, etc., etc. So it's alright to murder and steal? What bad thing do the 10 Commandments tell us? Just because they are in the Bible and we have to have seperation of church and state, we have to take them down? What do you think our laws are based on? Did you know that 52 of our 55 founding fathers were active members in church? Religion is what this country is based upon. But nowadays,"In God We Trust", is just a saying on our money. It means nothing to them. And I'm rambling....... sorry

 

[redShift]

the 10 commandments are as archaic as any law can be. They are outdated and apply to a time long long before our own. Im being very redundant but I need ot be. To be fair to other religions, perhaps we should have a table or seven or twenty with the major points of the major religions on the USA, or do everyone a favor and take the 10 commandments down and start furthering our law to a more secular future.

Im not bashing religion, just making a point about the 10 commandments.