Warrior Shackles..Leaf arch fix?

[Anime]

Warriors

Okay so I got the shackles on...and sure enough the springs went flat..really flat. So flat the bottom spring (not the load) is now in full contact with the top one...hence I'm getting stiffer ride, and tho its not annoying, I know I could do better if something is done.

I was wondering how well the procomp add-a-leaf fixes this arch, and also, since the Sport uses only two main leafs plus the load leaf (the 4 doors use 3 plus the load) is the "harshness" usually associated with the add-a-leaf minimal on the sport, or about the same?

I'm also wondering if re-arching the springs is a better idea, or just new, longer leafs altogether?

It seems to me that putting the warrior shackle slightly further back (like the angle of the stock shackle) with a longer spring would result in even more travel(they do this with the Ranger prerunners dont they?)..to the extension limit of the shackles/shocks? Would the Old Man Emu springs be longer and give this effect? I wonder if even the OME springs would flatten out some due to the shackles..which would actually be ok as long as I dont have the same problem of the main springs still hitting each other...

Could I just use two of the OME leafs to mimic the factory setup..?

Maniak... you have both the warriors and OME springs..do they just flatten out some, or do they still smoosh together like the worn out factory ones?

[Edited by Anime4x4 on 01-09-2001 at 10:14 AM]

 

[EMStaxi]

I just installed the add-a-leafs yesterday, and they somewhat restored the arch. I took the truck out for a test drive and the ride seems to be okay. I did notice additional lift once the add/leafs were on. Now I have to re-adjust the torsion bars to make the front level with the back. I was mainly on the highway last nite so the ride was smoother. I will see what happens when I hit city streets later today.

 

[Maniak]

Anime4x4

I was doing some more checking/testing and found out something interesting. The install of the WAR153 shackles does NOT flatten the springs. It is an optical illusion. If you were to use a straight end between the two eyes of the spring and measure the distance between the spring and the axle you would see the distance is the same with the stock or WAR153 shackles. When you install the WAR153 shackles it moves the end of the spring down giveing the appearance of less of an arch. The arch is still there it is just that the arch is now leaning rearward.

From from i've heard and seen, re-arching isn't worth it. It usually doesn't last (but I've heard of some that have had good results with it, just not very many)

The add-a-leaf would give you a stiffer ride and would lift the rear. It might even lift it enough to couter the look of sag.

The OME springs react just like regular spring do. If you move the end of the spring down it rotates the arch and makes it look flat.

The OME springs do look "more flat" with the WAR153 shackles but I put on a shorter shackle (5.5" instead of the 8.5") and did the measurement I mentioned above and found it was the same. The only thing I can think of that would be a drawback to the WAR153 shackles chaning the angle of the spring is that the spring is closer to the ground longer than it was before. I don't think I've landed on the springs yet coming down a shelf, but I do hit the shackles often (which is why I put wheels on the shackles to help when I do that).

I do get more flex with the OME springs than I did with the stock springs with add-a-leaf. I now have enough droop to bottom out the shock which I didn't have before. I even had to lift the rear end when I was installing the springs to get the shocks to reach. When I let the axle hang the shocks were too short to install and I can get even more flex than that if the opposite side it pushing up (which pushes the other side down).. This made another problem, my shocks can now hit the axle at extreme flex. I am going to move the lower shock mount up so I don't hit the axle any more which will give me a little more droop.

Lemme know if I missed any questions..

 

[Anime]

well

Maniak

Youre right about the distance being the same as far as the spring goes, ..it doesnt change the arch, but the longer shackles do make the spring act as if it were loaded..the 3" longer shackle moves the rear of the leaf down-the part behind the axle down as well...hence calling it "flattened"...the problem I'm having and wondering about is the main leafs now making contact with each other, similar to a loaded condition..like hauling heavy stuff in the rear.

Youre not using stock shackles are you? It seems moronic after buying the shackles, but I'm thinking I can do better in the rear if I shorten the Warriors to 6.5" or maybe even back to 5.5-6"..then use the OME springs, this will give me lift in the rear, and I should get a better flex effect since the shackle will flex clear to hitting the frame now...I should also be able to use only the two top springs in the 3 spring OME pack, or not use my load spring..since the sport only comes with 2 plus the load..

I'm wondering how well the stock springs with longer shackles really work for up travel if the longer shackles cause the springs to be almost loaded..the springs wont flex past the point of being flat on the load right? So if I have 1" before the springs flatten out on the load and maybe 1-2" of total arch left, the suspension will only flex 3" into the wheelwell before it cant go up anymore?

What a headache..could you give me the lowdown on your OME purchase/install..prices, parts used to make fit, etc etc.

If I dont find some major flex, I'm shortening the shackles (how..i dont know..I have no big cutting or drilling tools)
and changing to OME leafs..pain since I'll have to get new size urethane eyelet bushings..oh well

 

[Maniak]

Here's the Flex I had with the Stock Springs with an add-a-leaf and the WAR153 shackles.. We got good droop and decent stuff.. I think you should keep the current springs you have with the shackles but when you get more money buy the OME springs for some more flex. At least we did when we changed the springs (but kept the WAR153 shackles)

We don't use the Stock shackles now, I just installed them to see if they were really flat (I just installed one for a few minutes)..

I got the OME springs which is part number OME-36. It is for a 1996 Explorer (just like the WAR153 shackle is). The only problem I've seen so far is that I can't find new bushings (which you will need if you buy the springs new). When I bought the springs I was missing 1/2 of a bushing (they were left in the driveway). If I remember correctly, a new set of springs is about $300. It is a very easy install and was very straight forward.

 

[Anime]

yeah yeah

I've seen the flex pix before..you just LOVE showin off your flex huh?

Where did you get/wheres a good place to get the OME stuf?
Is it a 3 leaf pack? thinner springs than factory? Have you found a set of Energy suspension bushings that fit?

My only issue with getting the OME springs is they are suppossed to add 2" of lift...this will probably be minimized due to the leaf angle change, but I have quite the lift as it is with the shackles (I got around 2"..maybe more..now I gotta get the front up to match) I never really wanted lift..I just wanted FLEX and travel..prerunner style. Some Ranger pages mentioned getting a longer leaf pack with more thin leaves (as opposed to the few thick ones)would allow like 20 inches of rear travel!! Hence I thought..wow longer shackles must be the way!
Now I find they arent working like that with stock springs..

I took a real bumpy turn on pavement last night that I have taken many times with the old shackles..however, with the stiffer rear end (due to the springs being compressed) I almost got thrown out of the drivers seat! This is TOO stiff for serious wheeling..
One of the bigger probs I have is keeping my foot on the clutch in serious terrain..if I get knocked around in the seat because the rig is bouncing all over the place, it usually causes my clutch foot to slip or let of the clutch too fast...usually causing a spin or burnout, or sometimes alot more speed than I wanted..I want a compliant suspension for yahoo-style baja drivin' and so I dont get pounded around in the cab.

I also tested my flex driving up a curb, and sure enough, the spring only lets the wheel go up 3" before everything nails the load spring, and thats it..The longer shackles barely move to allow for the 3"..but it doesnt seem like any improvement..I dont know everything about leaf springs, but I dont see how the longer shackles help any if the "flat" spring now allows less up travel than the stock configuration???

Are the OME springs longer? Do I just need longer springs? Help!

 

[Maniak]

I got my OME springs from Rick Horowitz (they were too short, he replaced them with a custom pack from National Spring)..

I think there are 4 or 5 leaves on the OME spring (I can let you know tomarrow).

The only bushings I could find that would fit were Factory Ford Bushings. No Poly Bushing company had them. The Factory bushings are Poly and I found the missing 1/2 of a bushing so I didn't need to buy a new set.

I don't understand why your not getting flex. With out old springs with an add-a-leaf and the WAR153 shackles we got close to 6" of stuff in the rear and about the same in droop. The springs didn't quite bend backwards but they were close when compressed. I also remember seeing the Shackles move quite a bit when I compressed the suspension. The only thing I can think of is that your springs are too stiff or the shackle/spring mount is too tight. You should get more than 3" of up travel from your springs..

I notice that your have a sport. If I remember correctly the sport uses less springs. More thinner leaves will normally flex better than fewer thicker leaves.

I don't remember if the OME Springs were any longer than the stock springs but they are much more progressive compared to the Stock springs with the add-a-leaf.

I have always had a problem with the back end trying to step out if I went around a bumpy (washboard) corner under power even when we had the stock srpings with stock shackles. The ride will change with the new shackles, but using an add-a-leaf to get the flatness out won't help, it will actually make it worse since it will stiffen up the suspension.

One way to get more flex from the rear suspension is the zimmerman mod. You use a main leaf from a Ranger (I think an STX) as the main leaf in your spring pack, then use the main leaf from the explorer as the next leaf (cut the eyes off). I don't remember which other leaves you leave in but Rick Horowitz had a spare set at his house (at least he used to). There is a thread someone on here with actual instructions as to which leaves to use from each vehicle. I don't think you could do the mod if you only have 3 leaves now (including the overload). I think you will need a set of 4 door springs to get the right comibination of leaves.

I also dont' think driving up curb is going to give you enough push on the springs to stuff the tire to the max. In order to get lots of flex I needed to get a lot of weight transfered to that side of the vehicle. If I just jack up one side of the axle I only get a few inches of travel before it starts to lift the vehicle. If I get some weight transfer on that side I can stuff the tire in until it almost hits the top of the inner fenderwell in the rear.

I think for the type of wheeling you want to do (fast suptle(sp?) suspension) you will need more thinner leaves with a good shock to handle the suspension movement.

 

[Anime]

cool

ok...I probably do need new leaves then..loner ones..I just hope they dont add even more lift

If you could, while youre finding out how many leaves the OME have (do you still use the load?), can you measure the distance between the eyelets (center to center approx) If the OME is much longer (might not be since its prolly suppossed to work with stock shackles) I'll get those perhaps, if not..its custom time..wonder how much new ones cost..

 

[leebo]

If you only got 3" there's something wrong. I would check into how tight you've got the bolts. I've had mine flex a ton more than that several times. If you want pre-runner type flex it is surly custom time. A new set should run in the area of 400. You may as well have them do a set of coils for the front to match. Get a soft spring rate and you're set. Just keep in mind though that the more flex you get, the quicker they will go flat.

 

[Maniak]

I haven't had a chance to measure how long they are but The stock springs that gave us the flex had 3 leaves plus a James Duff add-a-leaf and the overload. I don't remember if it came this way but we had the overload so it was bending down instead of up. When I put it back together I couldn't remeber which way it was and I figured I could get more flex out of it would allow the springs to compress farther.

The OME springs have 4 leaves plus an overload spring. The overload spring is just like the overload on our old springs, bend downward.

I tested the flex last night by jacking up one side of the axle. I only got 3-4" of travel before it started to lift the truck. I then drove diaganol up a hill and it flexed much more.

 

[Anime]

eh

bolts are torq'd to 30 ft lbs per Warriors instruction spec of 25-35 ft lbs

Lemme know if you get a measurement on the spring length...the OME sound like a deal for 3 leaves and a load...would you think I should only use two and the load with a sport instead of a 4dr?

I'm just trying to figure out if a longer leaf is what I need..if not OME would be the way to go!

I'm still trying to figure out if performance products 1" progressive springs ($200) or Stupidlifts' 1.5" something-or-other springs ($100) will work best for the front...custom coils are a rip-off for minimal lowering/lift

 

[Anime]

eh

I think I'm getting flex now..at least more or something...went to a little place I go to use the 4by when I havent used it for awhile..took some whoop-de-doos and I guess the shackles started working..maybe one good boing was needed to get em swingin'?

Still interested in if longer springs work better..do you make a leaf longer in front as well as the back or can you just extend the half behind the axle?

 

[Maniak]

Now your getting into the custom made area. If you lengthen only the rear portions it changes the spring rate.. If you lengthen both ends you will move the axle back farther which can cause all kinds of problems. Your best bet is to talk to a Spring shop and tell them what you want to do. Then tell them how much you can spend and they can tell you what you can do. I think your best bet is do the Zimmerman mod for extra droop and use the War153 shackles. I think this is going to be your best bet without spending $500-$1000 on a set of custom springs.

I did do another test this weekend. I just lifted our 1963 Ford Galaxie (well kinda).. The rear suspension was very old (37 year old springs) and the back end sat low. The fender at the center of the tire was only 19" off the ground. I flipped the shackles so they are setup like the explorer shackles.. (made them into compression shackles instead of the spring sitting higher than the shackle).. I also changed the stock shackles for the old Explorer shackles I had sitting around. This lifted the Rear of the Galaxie 4". When putting stuff back on, I noticed that the rear was drooping 3" more than it was before (I couldn't get the floor jack under the diff when the frame was on jack stands). I then tested the stuff ability and found that it stuffs higher than it did before. It looks like I have more than 10" of travel in the rear now. This of course means I need new longer shocks (they were old air shocks anyway)..

I then checked if the Springs were "flat" and yes they were but boy do they flex more. Now that I think about it, one thing that may have helped is that I removed the spring clamps to allow the springs for flex apart. Either way, The Galaxie now sites 4" higher in the rear and the suspenions works great (nice soft/controlable ride).

 

[Anime]

wow

So much to learn...

Are the OME springs longer or not ? lol

I have no plans to spend even close to over $300 for springs if I can get the OME..I might pay $200 for slightly longer ones..but not $500-1000. (O yeah..is it around $300 for the pair of OME or its $300 each??

Are Ranger springs longer?

I was actually thinking if I got a really long spring, I'd fab up a new spring mount for the FRONT to match the warriors and move the mount forward so the axle wouldnt have to move forward or back..I plan on doing this anyway since the factory mount is another weak point in the suspension..so I hear.

Did you remove your spring clamps on the Explorer? Any disadvantage to this (road driving?)

I was pretty impressed with the suspension last night when I almost slid into a Pathfinder stopped at a light cuz I was slidin down a hill real slow...but instead I just hopped right onto the median..woohoo...it jumped a 8" curb just as smooth as could be..freaked ppl out but I sure didnt hit nuffin'

 

[Maniak]

The OmE Springs measured in a straight line are the same length as my stock springs.. If I measure along the spring the OME is longer (it has more arch) but not by much. I don't remember if it was $300 each or for the pair.. I think for the pair (I didn't buy it new)..

If I remember correctly the Ranger spring is the same length (or maybe slightly longer) but it doesn't change the position of the axle..

One of the things I was thinking of doing was removeing/replacing the front spring hangers for the rear springs.. It looks as if you could put longer springs on there and move the hanger forward some.. You could even just build a spacer/lift kit for the front spring hanger. That would remove the change in axle you got from the shackles and un-flatten your springs.

I didn't remove the spring clamps on the Factory springs when I had them on (even with the add-a-leaf). I now run with the clamps open.. They still have ther verticle(sp?) parts but I don't have the bolt in the top to limit their flex.. I've had to knock on spring back into place about 1 month after I got them but have never had to do it again.

Mark

 

[Anime]

uh

Originally posted by Maniak
You could even just build a spacer/lift kit for the front spring hanger. That would remove the change in axle you got from the shackles and un-flatten your springs.

??? I wish...I dont really understand but I think any movement of the hanger forward and down (for lift) would "flatten" the springs even more..since the longer shackle allows the rear eyelet to extend further rearward, extending the front forward would almost require a new longer spring..I'm guessing the OME woul b great for this because they ARE slightly loner but have the greater arch than factory for the lift..if the springs are both flat, the OME are longer....

soooooo what I need are worn out OME springs!! anyone got some? I still wonder if I can just take 1 or 2 of the bottom leafs off the OME cuz I have a sport and then be able to have springs with an arch but only minimal lift in the rear with the warrior shackles..hmm

 

[Maniak]

The way I understand it, the flattening is not caused by the longer shackle per say.. it is caused by the longer shackle changing the pinion angle.. if you lower the front of the spring the same distance the rear was lowered by the longer shackles (not moving it forward) the flattening effect should go away.. If you were to move it forward you would really flatten the spring which might make it more flexible (stuff) but would cause it to wear much faster and would change the way it reacts (spring rate)..

I would call OME (ARB) and ask them about using the OME-36 springs on a sport.. maybe they have some info on this..

 

[Andrew K. Petko]

I looked into buying the OME springs.

OME-36 40mm lift ---- $266.02 each.

 

[Anime]

ohh

heh..youre right ..I thought about it last night and yeah..if you move the hanger down as much as the shackle moved the rear eyelet...it'll prolly still be flatter just cuz the shackle can go back more, but it should help the arch a ton..hmmmmmmmmm Maybe I'll make and sell these..Explorer leaf hanger-"rock slider version"

For now, I think its gonna be OME and possible work on the hangers this spring/summer...but they sure better be
$266.02 in some other country..the OME springs for tons of other vehicles are very cheap...$300/pair sounds more like it..I dont think anyone would buy them for $600

Heyyyyy I have 3 Explorers now!!