Water and Oil don't mix

[Eric Z]

I am looking for some help. 2015 PIU with the 3.7L and just 60,000 miles and less than 500 idle hours. Vehicle was running normal, parked it and came back 30 minutes later to find puddle of brownish fluid underneath. Looked under hood and found the coolant tank had overflowed and was full of oil and coolant mixture. I assumed catastrophic water pump failure and had it towed to Ford dealer. Service Manager called and said water pump NOT the problem but that the engine oil cooler had burst, which allowed the oil to mix with the coolant (as that was under higher pressure). He said the oil level was low, but that the oil itself was clean. Now engine was running normal at shutdown, no low oil pressure warning, etc. So then comes the bad news.... The quoted cost for repair is over $3,200.00, with $1,300 of that for a radiator and $487 for engine oil cooler, $620 for upper and lower radiator hoses, $230 for the coolant expansion tank, $200 for cooling flush, $90 for serpentine belt and $90 for engine clean. It seems like they are trying to replace anything that came in contact with the coolant and oil mixture, except the heater core, but wondering if that is overkill?? And if the engine oil cooler is separate from the radiator, why can't that just be flushed, why replace at $1,300?? Same with the hoses, wouldn't a good flush clean them out??

 

[94Eddie]

A Ford dealer will run up the tab without mercy. What is meant by the oil cooler "burst?" If it ruptured then it needs replaced. Hoses, tank, radiator etc. should be fine with a flush if they aren't compromised structurally. The only time I Iet a Ford dealership do a repair for me is when the vehicle is under warranty. Otherwise, I use an independent repair shop if I don't do the work myself. Running oil with water contamination is way worse than running coolant with a little oil in it. Coolant, for the most part, does not lubricate critical components like oil does. It just cools the engine. If the cooling system isn't squeaky clean it isn't the end of the world and can be cleaned up to an acceptable level without throwing away structurally sound components, IMO. Also, if the oil cooler is independent of the cooling system, how did the oil get into the coolant? Does the oil system also use the radiator to supplement cooling like transmission fluid?

 

[Eric Z]

A Ford dealer will run up the tab without mercy. What is meant by the oil cooler "burst?" If it ruptured then it needs replaced. Hoses, tank, radiator etc. should be fine with a flush if they aren't compromised structurally. The only time I Iet a Ford dealership do a repair for me is when the vehicle is under warranty. Otherwise, I use an independent repair shop if I don't do the work myself. Running oil with water contamination is way worse than running coolant with a little oil in it. Coolant, for the most part, does not lubricate critical components like oil does. It just cools the engine. If the cooling system isn't squeaky clean it isn't the end of the world and can be cleaned up to an acceptable level without throwing away structurally sound components, IMO. Also, if the oil cooler is independent of the cooling system, how did the oil get into the coolant? Does the oil system also use the radiator to supplement cooling like transmission fluid?

So a little more info. Based on looking at parts diagrams there is separate engine oil cooler that is oil to coolant based (as vs oil to air) and assumption is that leak between the two fluids. As to how much oil mixed with coolant, maybe 2 quarts as oil was low, but still visible on dipstick and still clear. So the radiator itself is fine, just contaminated with oil/coolant slushy mixture and dealer expresses concern it will never clean up and could lead to overheating as the oil plugs up passages.

 

[94Eddie]

So a little more info. Based on looking at parts diagrams there is separate engine oil cooler that is oil to coolant based (as vs oil to air) and assumption is that leak between the two fluids. As to how much oil mixed with coolant, maybe 2 quarts as oil was low, but still visible on dipstick and still clear. So the radiator itself is fine, just contaminated with oil/coolant slushy mixture and dealer expresses concern it will never clean up and could lead to overheating as the oil plugs up passages.

The link below might shed some light on whether cooling systems can be flushed to remove oil. It seems that it is possible to clean oil from the cooling system.

Google Search

 

[CDW6212R]

The engine internally where the oil is, that's the critical part of the issue. The cooling system can be serviced easily at home with parts store flushing products. That might take a couple of hours, I'd probably do it twice with a top name brand flush product. Collect the old coolant to discard, and then use a water hose for the flushing process, then distilled water to fill it back up.

The engine is the worry, if it really didn't get any water inside, then it will be as simple as an oil change. If it may have had any coolant get inside, that's not good and who knows how much damage was done. It sounds like not much was hurt, so at most an engine flush might be wanted. I would drain the oil into a pan which you can inspect the oil carefully. If no water is found, put new oil and a filter on it, and the engine is good.

Those oil coolers are fairly reliable, but all of the various OEM designs have had some rare cases of them failing internally. That $487 sounds cheap, the oil coolers of the 302 Explorers were about $1000 at one time.

You did a wise thing to have it towed and not drive it at all. I would fix that myself assuming the cooler is reasonable to access. Put in some coolant additive with the anti-freeze, that lubricates the water pump seals, and makes the coolant transfer heat better. I like Water Weter.

 

[Eric Z]

The link below might shed some light on whether cooling systems can be flushed to remove oil. It seems that it is possible to clean oil from the cooling system.

Google Search

Thank you for the response and link, very helpful. I plan on having the oil cooler replaced then flushing the whole system, with me doing several follow-on flushes at home. The dealer took the stance, they don't wash and reuse parts, they prefer to install new, but dang there are a lot of parts that could have been contaminated so super expensive to replace them all. And 900 miles out of warranty....

 

[94Eddie]

Thank you for the response and link, very helpful. I plan on having the oil cooler replaced then flushing the whole system, with me doing several follow-on flushes at home. The dealer took the stance, they don't wash and reuse parts, they prefer to install new, but dang there are a lot of parts that could have been contaminated so super expensive to replace them all. And 900 miles out of warranty....

It is easy for a Ford dealer to spend your money.

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, when they can use that excuse of not cleaning parts or reusing parts, they are happy to spend your money for things you don't need. They reuse parts all the time when they can't get the customer to buy new ones.

 

[peterk9]

I wonder if it may have to do with their 2 year warranty on parts and labour?

Peter

 

[CDW6212R]

Dealers have a long list of excuses for making you pay for more parts, and labor. Customer satisfaction is not their highest priority, but liability and profit are.

 

[94Eddie]

I wonder if it may have to do with their 2 year warranty on parts and labour?

Peter

It probably does. The solution for everyone would be for the dealer to give an option to the customer to forego the warranty and replace only the broken parts.

 

[peterk9]

Dealers have a long list of excuses for making you pay for more parts, and labor. Customer satisfaction is not their highest priority, but liability and profit are.

I'm glad my dealership isn't one of them.

Peter

 

[Eric Z]

I am generally not in the habit of dealership bashing and favor them for the vast majority of work done, as they know their vehicles best. In this case I was torn, because I see that parts replacement is the safest method, but it sure seemed that I should be able to re-use parts after they were cleaned. And a bit disappointed that Ford would take the position that the vehicle was 900 miles out of warranty and there was nothing they would do to help. Time will tell if that is a good choice or not and I will surely revisit this post if/when I have to start replacing more parts that may have been damaged. But I suppose when the water pump gives out in a few years, much will be replaced then. Thank you for the input, as it helps to understand the options.

 

[CDW6212R]

I worked in dealerships for six years. I'm old enough to have seen what car salesman can and will do, but I spent time in the dealers when I was younger. So I've seen it from three perspectives, before, during, and after. I've been a car enthusiast for decades and paying attention to what goes on. I believe in good people and the fact that most are. But most people also have bad tendencies and given the right motivations, will choose to do bad things.

So I try to be ready for the bad, and hope for the good. I'm not a pure hater of dealers, I just understand the negative possibilities. I speak about them in generalities, not absolutes.

I've spent most of my life with cars learning what parts are most critical to replace, which are fine to reuse, and what parts should be the top quality brands, versus those which it doesn't matter much.

If you think car dealers have your best interests completely above theirs, you are very naive. Most are unlike any cliche car repair shops, but they all will take advantage of customers on occasion. Be prepared instead of being innocent.

 

[Eric Z]

I worked in dealerships for six years. I'm old enough to have seen what car salesman can and will do, but I spent time in the dealers when I was younger. So I've seen it from three perspectives, before, during, and after. I've been a car enthusiast for decades and paying attention to what goes on. I believe in good people and the fact that most are. But most people also have bad tendencies and given the right motivations, will choose to do bad things.

So I try to be ready for the bad, and hope for the good. I'm not a pure hater of dealers, I just understand the negative possibilities. I speak about them in generalities, not absolutes.

I've spent most of my life with cars learning what parts are most critical to replace, which are fine to reuse, and what parts should be the top quality brands, versus those which it doesn't much.

If you think car dealers have your best interests completely above theirs, you are very naive. Most are unlike any cliche car repair shops, but they all will take advantage of customers on occasion. Be prepared instead of being innocent.

Thoughtful response and helpful as well. Being prepared and informed is what I was looking for and forums like this are part of that process. I for one have learned much about oil and coolant mixing and am hoping that their are no hidden issues that come back to haunt me later. Thanks again for the responses.

 

[CDW6212R]

The oil that got into the cooling system isn't difficult to remove. It should be flushed out ASAP of course but there will be no long term harm to any of the cooling system. The engine is the only part to worry about, often coolant would get into the oil etc.

I have a 95 police Crown Vic which had the oil cooler rupture. On those it's inline with the radiator hoses at the bottom. I had a good 8-9 quarts drain out of the oil pan. I didn't drive it for a year not wanting to deal with the engine. Then I took a chance and replace the oil filter adapter(oil cooler lines come out of it) and the oil cooler, and started it up. It runs the same as it did before, I keep the oil changed at 3000 miles or so, who knows how mach it hurt the bearings, or how long it was running with coolant going into the oil line.

The engine is huge to deal with, the cooling parts are very minor. I know Ford stuck the water pump and rubber hoses inside some engines, that was just stupid.

 

[94Eddie]

The oil that got into the cooling system isn't difficult to remove. It should be flushed out ASAP of course but there will be no long term harm to any of the cooling system. The engine is the only part to worry about, often coolant would get into the oil etc.

I have a 95 police Crown Vic which had the oil cooler rupture. On those it's inline with the radiator hoses at the bottom. I had a good 8-9 quarts drain out of the oil pan. I didn't drive it for a year not wanting to deal with the engine. Then I took a chance and replace the oil filter adapter(oil cooler lines come out of it) and the oil cooler, and started it up. It runs the same as it did before, I keep the oil changed at 3000 miles or so, who knows how mach it hurt the bearings, or how long it was running with coolant going into the oil line.

The engine is huge to deal with, the cooling parts are very minor. I know Ford stuck the water pump and rubber hoses inside some engines, that was just stupid.

Over the years I have seen a number of engines go on to run fine after some coolant contaminated the oil. Whether it survives I think all comes down to how much coolant got into the oil, how long it was driven with contaminated oil and the condition of the engine before the contamination occurred.

 

[CDW6212R]

Ditto, it's bad but you hope there was enough oil and not too much rpm, for the bearings to survive somewhat.

 

[MisterWizard]

I am looking for some help. 2015 PIU with the 3.7L and just 60,000 miles and less than 500 idle hours. Vehicle was running normal, parked it and came back 30 minutes later to find puddle of brownish fluid underneath. Looked under hood and found the coolant tank had overflowed and was full of oil and coolant mixture. I assumed catastrophic water pump failure and had it towed to Ford dealer. Service Manager called and said water pump NOT the problem but that the engine oil cooler had burst, which allowed the oil to mix with the coolant (as that was under higher pressure). He said the oil level was low, but that the oil itself was clean. Now engine was running normal at shutdown, no low oil pressure warning, etc. So then comes the bad news.... The quoted cost for repair is over $3,200.00, with $1,300 of that for a radiator and $487 for engine oil cooler, $620 for upper and lower radiator hoses, $230 for the coolant expansion tank, $200 for cooling flush, $90 for serpentine belt and $90 for engine clean. It seems like they are trying to replace anything that came in contact with the coolant and oil mixture, except the heater core, but wondering if that is overkill?? And if the engine oil cooler is separate from the radiator, why can't that just be flushed, why replace at $1,300?? Same with the hoses, wouldn't a good flush clean them out??

Gotta agree that they're just throwing a lot of unnecessary parts at the problem. The only justification I can offer for replacing rubber hoses is that oil isn't good for them and can cause swelling and early failure. $620 for two hoses sounds obscene, IMO, as does $90 for a belt (they should be changed at regular intervals but nothing that happened here would have damaged the belt) and the $90 for an "engine clean" sounds more like "gee, can we add any other charges to the bill while we're here?" The coolant tank most likely just needs a good cleaning out, not a replacement at $230 also.
Oil pressure is always higher than coolant system pressure, so in this case you're most likely very fortunate that the mingling of fluids happened on the coolant system side instead of the engine lubrication side.
This sounds like nothing that a competent DIY owner can't handle, it's just parts replacement with a good flushing of the coolant system. If you're not comfortable doing it yourself, find a good independent shop and be adamant about not replacing things that aren't necessary. $3200 is just obscene.

 

[peterk9]

Here are the upper and lower hoses; Radiator & Components for 2015 Ford Police Interceptor Utility | Auto Nation Ford White Bear Lake Belt 2007-2019 Ford Serpentine Belt BT4Z-8620-A | Auto Nation Ford White Bear Lake

Peter