Welding scare....

I ran across this on another board (yes, there are others )...

I never thought it could be this bad using carb/brake cleaner..

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

~Mark

 

[jad2411]

I once kinda passed out from toilet cleaner, they came to do some painting, new carpet, new light fixtures etc in my room at my mom's house, so when they finished the bathroom was a mess, so I bought some cleaner and since it was winter, turned on a gas heater, and started cleaning the bathroom, ~30 mins later I started walking and I'd still was going forward but my legs had stopped walking and I fell, I didn't even know that I had to hold on to something or at least to try to fall on a "safe" way, so I went down just like lumber : a few mins later I was still there and thought to myself, WTF am I doing here just lying on the floor, so I stood up and left, when I fully regained consiousness, I realized that the fumes of the cleaner + whatever CO2 the heather produced had intoxicated me good thing I never fully lost consciousness so I was able to walk away on time

 

[inh]

Holy ****.. I had no idea things could be that bad..

 

[Paraphoe]

When I saw phosgene I knew the article was not going to end very well. Really sucks for that dude, I hope some of the affects he was describing will lessen with time. That is brutal.

 

[techieman33]

That's scary to even think about.

 

[Willard]

That does really suck. Something good to remember though. I have had flame near brake cleaner a lot of times. I don't think about that stuff usually I just be kind of careful. Good thing I didn't use a can as a flame thrower back in my dumber days.

There was once though where I burnt some of this special oil in a can my dad had. I don't remember what it was. But those were the worse fumes I've ever encountered in my life. I can usually handle that stuff alright, but that almost knocked me down. Makes me think now that it could have had same or similar chemicals in it, which makes me glad I didn't end up with problems from that.

Scary stuff.

 

[Rick]

Phosgene gas is mustard gas... VERY nasty. R-12 also turns into phosgene gas when exposed to flame. My auto shop teacher taught us that as a warning to those who smoked cigarettes while they worked on cars (very common at the time). Inhaling free R-12 through a lit cigarette could cause the chemical change.

 

[inh]

I really think this should be a sticky either here or in the fabrication forum, or both. I use brake cleaner to clean all kinds of stuff and if I had a welder, I would probably use it to clean before welding as well...

 

[Rick]

Good idea. I made it a sticky

 

[Turdle]

In this article you are instructed to use brake cleaner to clean the gears before "locking" them with a welder-

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techar...der_gears_locking_differential_4wd/index.html

"quote" Prepping the surface is extremely important. This may require your blowing through an entire can of brake cleaner, but it's well worth it if you want the best welds. Be sure to thoroughly wipe down the axle for any remaining oil and grease that could catch fire." end quote"

I wonder why after years of this practice we are just now hearing of the danger?

 

[Hitchhikingmike]

Wow, his story is very innocent too. When using the stuff I always like to keep a fan on in the garage. Makes me want to wear a mask now every time I use the stuff.

 

[eXcali]

I think it's the introduction of both heat and Argon that causes the chemical to turn.
I had a coworker at a shop I worked for mix industrial cleaning agents that contained bleach and ammonia together. And we all know bleach + ammonia = CHLORINE GAS! I heard what sounded like boxes fall in a mop closet while I was getting parts and I found him passed out on the floor.

Phosgene is pretty similar to mustard gas but more closely related to Chlorine gas, Mustard gas is a blistering agent derived from sulfur mustards with a yellow to brown colored cloud smelling like horseradish or a strong mustard. Chlorine gas is more immediately deadly, and is often invisible and smells like hay. So the lesson here is any phosgene exposure would be far more deadly than mustard gases. Oh and let's not forget, always have a supply of atropine auto injectors within arms reach! A bit to much time spent in the Army and watching the History channel I guess.

 

[Rick]

"quote" Prepping the surface is extremely important. This may require your blowing through an entire can of brake cleaner, but it's well worth it if you want the best welds. Be sure to thoroughly wipe down the axle for any remaining oil and grease that could catch fire." end quote"

They tell you to throughly wipe it down.

In the article about the gas the guy said he welded over a bit of liquid brake cleaner that had collected in a pitted area. Brake cleaner evaporates very quickly, but if you happen to hit a wet spot... trouble.

 

[gijoecam]

According to this Wikipedia article, Phosgene can be created by the chlorinated compounds being exposed to UV light caused by welding... It may be the light, not the heat, that can cause it...

That's another reason it pays to buy the non-chlorinated brake cleaner. Around here, it's the same price as the chlorinated stuff... The non-chlorinated brake cleaner doesn't contain the TCE as the active ingredient.

edit: after doing some more reading about TCE, it appears that incineration at temps less than 450 degrees can also cause it to form phosgene...

 

[metallica1283]

i don't get if you have a welder why not buy metal cleaner its the same price and does the same thing but it safer to weld with

 

[Scott B.]

i don't get if you have a welder why not buy metal cleaner its the same price and does the same thing but it safer to weld with

In the article, he said the store was out of his usual cleaner.

 

[tdavis]

here in California, I do not remember seeing any chlorinated cleaners on the shelf.. It's all TCE free.

 

[metallica1283]

oh miss read that sorry

 

[OneLever]

I've been coming to this forum for some time before I joined and only just today noticed this sticky. I had no idea that heating brake cleaner or other high concentration solvents could be this dangerous. I am intentionally bumping this thread in hopes that other people will notice it too. Thank you Maniak for posting this information.

 

[ncranchero]

We had a similar incident in our welding shop & work several years ago. We had to switch to non-chlorinated brake cleaner for anything that related to welding. I don't think chlorinated brake clean is legal in California.